mbohu

Hallo HausKatze. I really did not like how the Navigators were landing when I used to rent them and everything improved tremendously, once I started using different canopies: Sabre2, Storm, Spectre, all were much better as far as landings were concerned. (Storm was a bit tricky, as it seemed like all the flare power came in the last 2 inches of the flare.) It felt like the Navigator would react with tiny a time-delay to any flare-input and that made it extremely difficult to time the flares correctly. I got hurt on landings 3 times when I flew Navigators and never again after that. (Yes, it's true I had less jumps when I used them, but I felt a change immediately when I switched to other canopies, and whenever I had to rent a navigator again, because nothing else was available, I had the same landing trouble again.) As far as soft and on-heading openings go, I LOVE my Spectre. My pack jobs look like sh... and it always opens nicely and on heading (literally: always), so if PD can make a 260 sqft Spectre I'd go for that (I have a 230 at 1.1 wingloading) So: If you go with a Navigator, I'd first try one out and compare it to something else at a comparable size if at all possible--I don't think they are that great on landings and I had some semi-hard openings on them as well.

Thanks for the clarification. Your post and baronn's seem to indicate that the project has gone on for a very long time: The word "another" seems to indicate that it has been in the works for 40 years already? I am a much newer member of USPA and do not know the history; a quick search on the web does not turn up anything that old about it. Maybe someone could post a quick summary on the history and when it really started? (If it was really 40 years ago--I would tend to think it's not going to happen--but baronn, you've used hyperbole before, so I don't necessarily trust that statement by itself)

Haha! I doubt it's because we CAN'T........it's just that we don't very much care to! (at least as long as lives don't depend on it)

It seems that many posts here make the implicit assumption that members are either AGAINST the USPA giving funds to the museum or simply do not care. I think that is not an accurate assumption. It is quite possible that people are genuinely FOR this. I don't really like the logic that is being applied here: "Since I strongly dislike this use of funds, it must be that everyone else also dislikes it, or at best they don't care enough...therefore THEY (the BOD) are clearly not listening to their members" While this poll is leaning towards the "DISLIKE" option, it is not doing so as strongly as reading most posts here would indicate. I find it quite possible that anywhere from a large minority to a small majority actually does support the use of funds for a skydiving museum. (Actually, I can't even be sure that it isn't a large majority.) I do support it. I may be persuaded otherwise at some point, but as of this point I see nothing wrong with it and think it would be an exciting project.

1.1

I don't think you're wasting your time. In my area (we now have 3 DZs within about an hour from where I am), when I started jumping, I felt there were very few people interested in RW. There is still a big majority of people who mainly want to freefly, but due to the efforts of a few people, and primarily one experienced female skydiver, there is a real culture around belly group skydives building and I (with just over 200 jumps) am now part of a serious 4-way team. I think all it takes is one person willing to be an organizer and show up regularly to organize multi-way belly jumps. New people will automatically gravitate to that, and I found that even at a DZ with mostly very experienced super-cool freeflyers, some of them have been joining us for many jumps, because of the feeling of the group and because 4-way (or 8-way) belly jumping is simply very much fun, when done right. Anyway, I'd encourage you to become the person taking the lead. Even if you do not find some more experienced belly-jumpers, the new people will benefit tremendously. I wouldn't necessarily agree with ChrisD2.0 that belly 4-way is the most difficult discipline (I've been watching and occasionally been lucky to jump with some of the top Artistic freefly jumpers and that is no easy discipline, for sure!) BUT I think at anywhere near our level, multi-way belly FS jumps allow for so much more learning and visible progress than most other disciplines. On every 4-way jump I can take something away, and often improve it on the next jump. At my level, when I spend a day "freeflying" (I put this in quotes on purpose!) usually all I can tell is: "Well we did seem to hold the head-down exit for a few seconds, and we stayed in the same general zip code throughout the jump--so it was a good jump!" (unless I'm jumping with very experienced jumpers who can track me down and get me to experience a couple of docks) Anyway, I agree with you and ChrisD2.0: 4-way RW is a blast! (and certainly not easy) Don't give up!

Here is how that went for me: 1. When I started (at age 50) I was definitely interested in skydiving as such, but, as so many, I was absolutely fascinated by proximity wingsuiting videos on YouTube. My thought was: "Sure, I will probably never do this close to the ground, but up in the air wouldn't be that dangerous, and I could fly close to clouds to get a similar experience." So my intention was 100% to get into wingsuiting after my 200th jump. Now that I reached my 200th jump a couple months ago I find myself not at all in a rush to put on a wingsuit. Why? What has changed? 1. I have discovered so much more about skydiving and the many disciplines and possibilities. When I started I had no idea that there was such a thing as 4-way FS (belly) and that it could be so much fun. I had no idea that I could become part of a team and seriously train for participating in the Nationals next year. I knew little about freeflying either, and much less about how difficult but also fun that can be, and how much training it would need to get even semi-decent at it. (same for tracking and angle-flying) So there is plenty to get into, even without a wingsuit. 2. I have also learned more about the real dangers or concerns about wingsuiting (and some of these might also not be real, but just an indication that I've heard and seen more, but never actually DONE it yet). I am much more concerned about the additional complexity: additional stuff I'd have to do under canopy, less freedom of movement for EPs, etc. and also a bit of a concern about deployments (reaching the handle over the wing, line-twists, hard openings) Lastly: I am more aware of the costs and possible equipment changes required...after having spent so much on my skydiving equipment already. 3. I am aware of how much great skydiving also depends on the right people to jump with. I have finally established some friendships and community around the types of jumps I currently do. Finding the people to do wingsuit jumps with (considering I'll be a total beginner with a low-performance suit) seems like a whole other daunting task, and it seems that if I want to make this worthwhile, I would have to really commit to wingsuiting (and not just do it every now and then between belly FS and freefly jumps) I do still think I want to do it at some point, for sure, but I am in no great hurry at this time. My guess is that similar things may have happened for others. I'm actually more drawn to that right now. Doing a first jump BASE course is still something that I am (at least in theory) drawn to, and going to a few walls in Switzerland, Italy or Norway is still a dream. So: Learning to control a simple 2-piece tracking suit well enough to get it flying as quickly as possible, seems like a really good idea (and fun enough, even if I never jump a sub-terminal or terminal wall)

Mostly, you're probably right, but you'll likely be surprised when you do get into a tunnel, that there are some new challenges in this regard, which are different from the open air--mostly related to the uneven airflow at different locations in the tunnel and (depending on tunnel-type) even the possibility of the tunnel "stalling out". So, sometimes it can be harder in a tunnel to maintain exact levels. Also: If you do any freeflying and you suddenly go to your back (not to speak of your belly), you'll make that distance up quickly again in the air, but in the tunnel, just a few meters, means you're suddenly at the very top of the tunnel.

Haha! I can totally see this happening in some European countries. If the relative wind wouldn't pose a problem, I'm sure some people would jump with a cigarette in their mouth.

Yes, as far as I know that is a specific issue in the USA, where cloud clearance for skydiving falls under the FAA regulations for airplane cloud clearance under Visual Flight Rules. So, while there may be some DZs in the US who do not completely comply with this rule, they can get in deep trouble and be shut down by the FAA (or the pilot can loose his license) In other countries this does not seem to be the same, and you can find many YouTube videos of jumpers enjoying flying relative to clouds (it's even a recommended training practice to be able to fly relative to a--more or less--stationary object at altitude) But in the US, you have to be really careful with that. Since it can get the pilot and DZO in trouble, they can get really serious about it!

Yes, I get it. You're inexperienced. You didn't know what was going on and were overwhelmed. You made a bad decision. Yeah--I know that pressure, BUT that is NEVER a good reason to go out, if you haven't made sure it's safe for you to do so. Do you see how this is a huge problem though?! I'm not sure you quite GOT it. It seems you are just wanting the 2 weeks to be over and get back to jumping. Do you realize you made a dangerous mistake? Are you taking actions to prevent that from happening in the future? BTW: You pulled at 5k. Was it always your intention to pull that high, or did you notice that you were the only one out and not in a good spot, and then decided in freefall to change your pull altitude? If it was always your intention to pull at 5k, did you let the other jumpers know before and clear it with them? I get the feeling you are taking these things not quite as seriously as you probably should.

As much as I like Mile-Hi, I found it quite difficult there in the beginning as well, to get to jump with more experienced jumpers regularly. It seems like everyone just jumps with their own group and it's hard to get in. The ones that I found most open to mentor newer skydivers there, were the more experienced women. There is also a group of skydivers who put on the monthly "No Pro" events. One of them may be open to mentoring you. ( https://www.facebook.com/flyblusora/ ) There is also the Colorado Skydiving League FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/182266868998833/ It's not going to give you a mentor as such, but if you want to become an AFF instructor, I would guess that doing lots of belly FS jumps at this point is definitely going to help. And I'll definitely look forward to jumping with you (at Mile-Hi, or Orange Skies, or Out of the Blue)

I'm not sure you are asking the right question here. How long would it take for you to realize: "Man, I really f...d up! I could have hurt/killed myself or others (think of the scenario of a plane underneath, for example). I really need to change my awareness/attitude at the time of exit." It sounds like you are a newer jumper. It sounds like you were overwhelmed and got confused during jump run. It sounds like you did not purposefully jump when there was no "clear" signal. That may be somewhat understandable. A lot is going on at that moment (Assuming you were honest in your description of what was going on in your mind, when you jumped) BUT: If you haven't felt a little jolt in your heart, when you realized what you've done and what could have happened as a result (did you even look down before getting out? How did you get out so quickly that no one could have prevented you from doing so? After 90 seconds, did you even know you were still at a proper spot to reach the landing area? Did you land out?) If you're not thinking: "Damn I absolutely need to change my awareness and attitude before jumping out of a plane" and if you haven't convinced the people at your DZ that you are seriously intending to do that, I don't see how any length of time of being banned from jumping would help. If your attitude is, that this is just some "penalty" for breaking a rule and you just need to wait it out, then it's not helping...no matter how long. (Just my opinion, of course. I'm no S&TA, DZO or Pilot. You really need to talk to them at your DZ and get clear what they need from you, to get a feeling that it is actually safe--and in your own interest--to let you jump again.)

Just one guy's experience: "ZP goes everywhere" is definitely what happens to me. I also do at least a couple things that are listed as causing hard openings in the PD video (locking stow rubber bands stretch across a lot of fabric to get the bag closed and even with medium-length rubber-bands I single-stow the locking stows, simply because that's all I CAN do, considering the tension on them...I've got a 230sqft canopy and it's probably the maximum for that container) I also used packers on 90% of my first 200 jumps (100 on that canopy) and their pack jobs look only marginally better than mine. BUT: Ever since I have that canopy, I've not had a single bad opening. It seems, no matter what I do, it comes out nicely. I'm jumping a Spectre. ...just sayin...

That depends a lot on the dropzone too. Personally, I have been to only one dropzone--maybe two (Skydive Arizona, Out of the Bule Skydiving) where that was an always available easy option (except for those thorny bushes in Arizona!) On all the other DZs I've been at, landing out would involve landing on private property or other options, that are an easy choice when you are in an actual emergency, but a very bad choice when you just want to avoid landing downwind (because the DZ owner, or farmer McNasty, will will be on your case and may even ask you not to jump at their DZ anymore)

I don't have much to say about the main topic itself but: I wonder: I doubt that USPA sanctioned has much of any meaning to whuffos signing up for Tandems or even a first jump course. I have to admit that, when I did my tandems decades ago, I had no idea what USPA was. Looking back, and knowing more about the complexity of tandem systems, I wonder what made me trust that this was all ok. But even a few years ago, when I signed up for the first jump course I knew nothing about USPA and member dropzones. I found that out as I progressed towards my A License and I'm pretty sure (and have anecdotal evidence) that this is so for most jumpers. If being a member dropzone was such a selling-point for whuffos it would be big on all the tandem ads. It isn't. If there is a safety advantage, I believe it's more for us regular jumpers, and in regards to whuffos, it's an advantage to us if there are less accidents--because it helps the public perception of the sport. So if you polled the whuffos my guess is the most common answer would be: "what the heck is a USPA sanctioned DZ?"

Just a few things that can happen if you're not in a stable position when deploying your parachute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiu61JUcqgg&index=33&list=PLS0eYrI6GvkNSxyACtWakteT4amucdVyQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5ksWIwenUk&index=17&list=PLS0eYrI6GvkNSxyACtWakteT4amucdVyQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbfMbT043CM (yes, I know: The last one had a different cause, but it shows you how scary and stressful it would be to have to deal with a canopy-related emergency, which will generally be much more likely if you cannot deploy in a stable position)

wolfriverjoe already explained it very well, but yes: the instability is really dangerous if it does not get corrected by the time you pull. (It's not turbulence--it's the inability to get back to a stable belly-to-earth arched position. The air will just throw your body around like that. It's even possible to spin fast enough to pass out. While it is not necessarily hard to get to a stable position, there is simply no way to learn this skill unless you are in a 120mph airflow--so when jumping out of airplanes or in a wind tunnel) As you can see, if you watch the videos closely, some students are tumbling so much that they are unable to find and pull the pilot chute to get their parachute out. The instructors actually chase them down and pull for them. Without that, you have essentially 3 possible scenarios: 1) you fix the instability yourself and get back to a stable belly-to-earth orientation and are able to pull at the proper altitude...but if you have never done it before, how can you assume you will be able to do it? If you have never driven a car before and get somehow transferred to the driver's seat while it's going 120 mph on the Autobahn, would you assume you would be able to steer it and slow it down to safety? Maybe? But what are the chances? 2) you keep tumbling and manage to pull anyway: Now any number of things could happen, the simplest one would be serious line twists under canopy which you would have to deal with, but you could also be completely tangled up in your lines, your canopy may not deploy at all, etc. You'd then have to deal with that emergency, cut away your main canopy, use a hook knife to cut yourself out of the mess AND deploy your reserve--all of this while still falling at up to 120mph to the earth and probably now seconds from impact. 3) you don't pull at all and HOPEFULLY your AAD deploys your reserve parachute at the last moment, (and you still may have to deal with all the possibilities of 2) but now with your reserve and no second chance while being only 5 seconds or less from impact) AND you may be landing in an area with all kinds of hazards and no time to steer yourself away--EVEN if you knew how to steer this thing. I can't imagine a mental issue where this kind of "kick" would be helpful. On the other hand, all the other things (adrenaline rush, overcoming fear of stepping out of the airplane, learning the ability to make split-second decisions to safe your own life, etc.) ALL these happen just as much on your first jumps with instructors.

billvon, I am really curious as to what you think would make canopy flight safer (in terms of licensing requirements or other oversight, or anything else the USPA can do.) It seems you have thought of this, and maybe others on the board have as well. Are there any suggestions or ideas floating around? Clearly, I don't have too much experience here, but reading the fatalities section of Parachutist over the past couple years, it seems to me that a large percentage of canopy fatalities (and based on what I see at my dropzones an even larger percentage of injuries) are coming from high performance landings. But only a limited (though increasing?) number of skydivers are even getting into that. So, making some kind of skills in that area mandatory for certain licenses seems like it would just force everyone into that aspect of skydiving, which I can't imagine to decrease the danger--so what are possible suggestions? Or is it more about landing patterns and canopy traffic and such? It seems that many here argue SOMETHING has to be done, but what are actual reasonable suggestions?

I see. That's probably true--but that would have nothing to do with that particular decision. If an opportunity was lost then only because something else wasn't done for safety in this area. The two are completely independent, unless you are saying the USPA can only make ONE change at a time and by making this one change they lost the opportunity to make another change. Also, since it is regarding the C License (and your jump numbers indicate you either have acquired this license recently or are still working on it) What would you suggest should be added to the requirements regarding canopy flight? There is already the requirement for 25 documented landings within 7 feet of target. Personally I find this already quite tough--if you are truly honest with this (and rightly so) considering it is not easy on a regular DZ to set up jumps ahead of time that allow you to pick a target like that and guarantee that it will be free when you actually try to land there. What tougher requirements would you like? (I find the FS requirements that were aded almost inconsequential--I had them already easily fulfilled by my B License--but I admit, others might have different jump habits)

A few reasons why that's not a good idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9Ly-tKPUhA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN3pBHbg3uY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd2pX0rM4p4 Aber mal ehrlich, Mann! It almost seems like you are purposefully trying to get a reaction: "mental issues, want to get a kick, don't need an instructor".. If so, I guess you are suceeding.

So how did aligning USPA licenses with FAI decrease safety? By simple logic: If A is a priority over B, then if increasing B reduces A--you are violating the rule that A is a priority (although even then, if B is increased by a factor of 100 while A is decreased by a factor of 1--one could still argue that it is in keeping with the priorities) But if increasing B (benefits for competitors) does not affect A (safety) at all, there is simply no conflict, and it is perfectly aligned with the priorities. In other words: personally, safety is my priority. But I also like to save money. Buying a 50 jump package at my DZ saves money and does not decrease my safety, so I am in line with my priorities, even though buying 50 jumps does not increase my safety.

Why? What would the possible advantage be? If it's about money, I'd say you will spend so much more if you continue to skydive that it really makes no difference in the big picture. If you just want to do it one time as a kind of thrill-ride, I would say it's not worth the risk. Pay for a Tandem skydive. If you want to become a skydiver, I cannot wrap my head around a possible reason why to skip the jumps with instructors. If you think you'll be to good at it and not need the instructors, you can just show them on your first jumps. It only takes a hand full of jumps before they don't hold on to you anymore. What difference does it make if you will be having thousands of jumps over your skydiving career? (And jumping by yourself is the most boring type of jump to do, anyway...most of the time--I do like to do it every now and then) I don't think you need to do a tandem jump first, though. Just start with AFF or any of the other methods (IAD, Static Line).

My tip: Instead of thinking "there is nothing there", feel that you are laying yourself down on a "cushion of air" that is angled about 30 to 45 degrees from the front and down. If you are jumping a reasonably fast airplane (any turbine engine plane, such as an Otter, King Air or Caravan, for example) there is enough air coming at you to immediately "hold you up". Trust this air and feel it immediately on your body. Lean into it. Let it support you. When visualizing your exit, don't ever visualize that you are stepping out into nothingness and falling. It's really easy to get used to that feeling, if you can go to an indoor skydiving tunnel a few times, and learn to enter the tunnel from the door, and feel that same airflow holding you up (In the tunnel it comes straight from below, while in the plane it comes much more from the front, but the feeling is very similar.)

Love it! Awesome! Congrats!