ZigZagMarquis

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=205 ... can't get to it without a Username & Password... doh!

Something like that sort-of has happened. A group of jumpers (3 or 4 ?) left a Cessna. One of the jumpers caught his bootie on something on the step. The pilot and the jumper made attmeps to free the jumper. Eventually, the pilot had to land with the jumper in tow. The pilot landed on a grass strip and managed to shut it down (stop) in an amazingly short distance. The jumper, although beat-up and exhausted by this point, had the presence of mind to take the landing on his container. They helo'ed the jumper off the DZ, but he was out of the hospital that same day having only suffered minior injuries, nothing broken. It just goes to show, "I'd rather be lucky then good any day."

Ditto... MJO said it better the I would have.

HnS, I've said my piece. There are clear facts which you choose to ignore... because if you pay attention to them, your argument disolves. You've managed to out type me, I'll give you that and the last word. DOOR!

A very wise rigger once told me... "If it goes in the bag... it will come out of the bag" Of course... the rest of the story is... unless it bag-locks... or it may blow-up coming out, but it will be out!

HnS, This exchange between you, MJO and I has quickly degraded into a debate over life philosophy. Back on topic... 1) The parameters by which Cypres will fire are clearly stated. 2) The statement that Cypres cannot be activated under canopy is truthful given the canopy technology of the day and how canopies were typically flown at the time of Cypres' introduction... AND... this statement still holds true for how 99% of jumpers pilot their canopies TODAY. 3) Regardless of the previous statement, the clear firing parameters of Cypres trumps that statement... it doesn't take an engineer to be able to understand this fact... "If I get Cypres coming out of the air too fast close to the ground, it will fire"... "doesn’t' matter if its in freefall, under canopy, or in the trunk of my car and I drive over a cliff, its going to function." 4) The argument that Adrian did not know how fast he was descending under canopy is irrelevant. He achieved the parameters that would activate Cypres and it did exactly what it said it would do... there is NO main canopy gone bit or in the trunk of a car bit in its decision logic... PERIOD. 5) No argument that Adrian got bit by this, I wish he hadn't, but he was not "set-up" as you choose to believe and continue to defend. 6) He was a test jumper expanding the flight envelope of the gear he was using... sometimes things go wrong when doing developmental test. I am looking forward to Airtec's engineering solution to this problem. In the interim, I hope and encourage all of the few canopy pilots out there with the swoop skills to meet Cypres' firing parameters under canopy to read and study and understand those conditions. HnS has suggested y'all start wearing Vertical Velocity indicators so y'all will know if you are or are not approaching those conditions. Conversely, y'all may consider if you do or do not want to use a Cypres on your rig. I hope that after becoming aware of the potential to fire a Cypres under canopy by doing multiple 360s onto final under a high performance canopy that no one continues to intentionally do so without taking some precautionary measure. I also hope that out of the select few canopy pilots out there that can achieve this condition get the chance to work with Airtec to come up with an a solution to this problem that will suit y'all's needs while allowing Cypres to continue to provide the same level of benefit, or better, that it has and continues to provide to the skydiving community at large.

HnS... so you're saying that the 78mph activation speed has no credit since skydivers don't carry vertical velocity indicators... wow. You're last post proves my point that you're of the mindset that you can always find reason that anything that "bad" happens is someone or soemething else's fault and I believe that the contrivance of logic by which you've arrived at that conclusion and defend that conclusion in the the general and in this specific case is wrong.

Thank you... but NO! You are correct... we feel differently. I think you are being overly dismissive of the clear understanding that a Cypres will fire if it senses an excessive descent rate at a prescirbed altitude... and concentrating on the statements made in the manaul that Cypres cannot fire under canopy, which, granted, now we know that is not true... why?... because now we know that there are folks out there piloting capable canopies in a manner which can fire a Cypres as if in freefall. Same thing, different words, HnS, you are stuck on earlier statement that Cypres cannot fire under canopy and dismissing the also stated facts of when Cypres will fire, i.e. based on a documented set of inputs... it will go off... unfortunately and tragicly, Adrian managed those set of inputs under canopy. Your statemets that someone performing radical manuvers under canopy setting up for a swoop do not know their descent rate are irrelevant... if you get pulled over by a cop for speeding and he or she asks you how fast you were going and you respond, "I don't know, I don't have a speedometer in my car", do you think that's going to get you out of trouble, be realistic. HnS, I don't know why, but I think you are stuck in a mindset that someone or something has to be responsible and that Adrian's actions are in no way involved in what happend. I disagree, but understand the psychology of your position... because once someone or something has to be responsible here with no acknowlegement that the manner in which Adiran piloted his canopy was involved, then of course you're going to point the finger of blame. *sigh* This thread has pretty much ran its course in my mind. Again, I wish Adrian's death had not happend. I'll be interested to see what engineering solution Airtec comes up with for y'all that choose to pilot your canopies in such a manner can satisfy Cypres' fireing parameters. I don't understand why y'all want to fly your canopies such... but that they say is a different story.

HnS, My response to that... YES! In my opinion, a jumper is respsonsible for the outcome of any and all skydives they make. Remember, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO skydive. YOU are the one that stepped off of the plane. There used to be a saying that as soon as you step off of the aircraft, YOU'RE DEAD... Until YOU do something about it. The advent of widespread use of AADs and gear becoming much much more reliable... noticed I said more reliable and not guaranteed to work... has lead many to believe that when we skydive we should expect to be as safe as if we're sitting on the couch at home... if something goes awry, Mr Cypres or gear guarantees will step in and insulate us from the gory shit that can happen when you strap a gloified bed sheet to your back, leave the surface of the earth and hurl you pink and soft body at the planet. In other words, a jumper is totally responsible for their fate from the time they leave the aircraft to the time they are back on the ground, no matter what the circumstances and no matter what events transpire in between. YES, everyone should share and present the best and most accurate information always, but that does not apply in hind-sight. Again... I didn't know him, but I really really really wish Adrian hadn't died. If I could change it I would. If one of his family or friends needed shoulder to cry on, a hand to hold or a beer bought for them to toast his life, I'm there... but realize there is no grand injustice here is all some of us are trying to say.

HnS, Yeah... all of that... but what you're missing in what I'm saying is that no matter what, each and everyone of us that decides to skydive is responsible for the outcome. It was our decission to step off the airplane in the first place. We should maximize our chances by using good gear from good sources and practicing good habbits, but in the end, the responsibility is our and ours alone... regardless of what the manual said. You disagree, that's okay with me. However, given the attitude of many out there that there is alwasys a nebulous "they" that is in some way responsible for any and every thing with total dismissal of an individuals own actions having had any input into anything... If I were Airtec... I'd be placarding it all over the place in big red letters that if you're going to do radical, multiple 360s under canopy at low altitudes setting for a swoop, that you could fire a Cypres if installed in your rig and doing so is AT YOUR OWN RISK.

They did foresee it. It didn't malfunction. Derek So what you're saying is swoopers did foresee the problem and then "what" would you say to one that continued to jump and swoop with a Cypres installed? "It didn't malfunciton"... so you're saying it performed as designed? Sensed a descent rate within its parametes to fire, and did.

Great...now packing too.... Yeah, sometimes I don't think that my hobby is skydiving. Sometimes I think my hobby is stuffing large pieces of nylon in to small and complicatedly shaped bags... and skydiving is the only interesting way I can come up with to unpack them.

Et all... in all the shouts here regarding Airtec should have "foreseen" this potential issue none of y'all raising your voices puts any of that on those high end swoopers out there. If Airtec should have foreseen it... which in my opinion it is not reasonable that they should have at the time of Cypres' intorduciton, but recently, yes... HOWEVER... y'all are missing the point that if Airtec should have have put on their thinking cap and thought of this ahead of time, then the same should be said for those in this community whom CHOOSE to fly their canopies in a manner that can fire a Cypres which is now obvious that it can happen. Look people. None of us HAS TO skydive. None of us HAS A RIGHT to skydive. None of us HAS A RIGHT to be kept safe from harm by some bit of technology regarless of our own actions while skydiving. Remember, the equipment we use to skydive has no warranty of functionality other then it has worked in the past; this does not gaurantee that it will work in the future. Deal with it. Be as informed as possible. Look out for each other, but think too for yourself and don't expect someone or something else to keep you alive. If you don't ever want to be seriously injured or killed skydiving, swooping, BASE jumping, etc.; sell your gear now and never jump again, that will keep you from ever being seriously hurt of killed skydiving, nothing else is guaranteed.

Raymond2, Airtec has recognized this as a problem. Please go see: http://cypres.cc/Sites/englisch/Skydiving_Small_Canopies.htm Having said that, let me also say that I am not in anyway saying what happened to Adrian Nicolas should be dismissed and my sympathy and well wishes go out to his family, friends and loved ones. However, I also don't think anyone here is saying that what happened to him should be dismissed nor do I think anyone is saying his life should be devalued. Please hear that. The subject is salted through with emotion which makes this a difficult subject to debate. You commented that, "... everyone here is an engineer and has declared the problem unsolvable..". Well, sir, I am an engineer and I do not think the problem is unsolvable. Reading the article referenced above; they're working on the problem. I don't know enough details though to speculate as to their solution.

Since he went to work at Lockheed he has mellowd.

Here's a start for ya... FAA TSO-C23D http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgTSO.nsf/0/00493AC675EDA12E86256DA500600EF7?OpenDocument

OMFG!!! Two things... one, I know what all of that stuff is from listening to all y'old grey hairs and from going through rigger training... and two, there is no ^%$#& way I'd ever jump out of a airplane with any of that strapped to my back, I'm not worthy! Thanks for jumin' that stuff back in the day... and coming up with better stuff for us "youngins"... --------------------------- Yea right. And I think I will send them his cell phone number. I will try and send it to you tonight. Sparky Awh... come on... who needs the manual when ya got "Hank"... he's much more fun to have around then an old manual... Anyway, thanks Sparky, I got the manual and I'll print it out and put it in my library in case I ever have to pack one of those critters. I keep saying I'm going to add on a seat rating when I get around to it.

I jump with a classic Pro-Tech... it has almost as many jumps as I do since I bought it around the time I had 20 jumps or so. The one pictured above looks like it would work too... but as somone mentioned, y'all may want to take the goggle keeper off of the back of it so it doesn't potentially become a line keeper. The only gipe I have towards any open faced helmet... yes, even though I still jump one... is the $800 worth of dental work I had to have done about a year ago after I had my right front tooth broken in a freefall collision...

See also the thread on G4 dbags... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1851892;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Contact Bob Celaya at the California City Skydiving Center; 760-373-2733. He may have some old rounds willing to sell cheap. However... please also check with your local fire marshall given the warning regarding the flammability of parachute material noted above.

Except Wings. Mark Guess they had to change it a bit to keep Sunpath from suing them...

Sparky, Did you try zip'in it before you sent it? ... or you could just send them Hank's email... Actually, now that I think about it. Can you email me that packing manual too... if you can zip it down small enough to send... thanks.

True, the G4 split bag version is different then the older style "Velcro closed" split bags that I think a lot of us first think of when thinking of a split-bag. Hard to explain I suppose... I'll see if I can find a pic of the G4 version to post... or maybe someone else will. Anyway... the old Velcro style split bags are just plain ass. I sewed the couple I had up years ago... the split bags that is, not asses. Guess that makes me a retard... ... I think I'll go do a re-pack on one of my resreves today... hmmm... freebags aren't split... guess that makes them retarded too... Hey BOOZY!!! Are riggers packing resrves into non-split freebags retarded too??

Boozy... I do not think there is a single one of us here that hasn't at one time or another packed using a split bag that is saying an un-split bag or bag that was split, but has been sewed up is now our preference. Personally, I just got sick of dealing with the Velcro once it started to wear out and by that time I had developed better packing skills that I could bag the canopy without a split bag. You may like the G4s split bag version, but please consider that in the future, as you gain experience, you may change your mind, or not, that's okay and also note that Mirage even came out with a non-split bag version for the G4, in their own words, "Non-split design makes packing easier"... unless you think the folks who built the rig you use to save your life every time you skydive are retarded too?

So what you are saying is you have never seen a G4 D-bag? Hard to believe, a rigger from California not seeing modern gear Ouch! *shakes cane at thepollster* Damn Kids!!! Get off My LAWN!!! ... anyway... ... but I have seen "Pack Opening Bands", "Open Corners on the Main Pack Tray", and even "Velcro Loops on the Back of the Neck on Your Jumpsuit for Stowing the Slider" (a really really bad idea IMO), come back into "style"... so I guess its just a matter of time before I run across one of these "new fangled" split G4 bags ya youngin's are talking about! Anyway... so not to be "out rigged"... ... I surf over to the Mirage website to "study up" on this "new fangled" split-G4 bag thingy... and after clicking through their "way high-tech"... and over animated web-site... ... I finally find a few pictures of the critter, and their claim regading it... "To create the Mirage G4's tapered shape, we custom tailored its Main Bag to follow tapered lines. Its radical shape also enhances the teardrop aerodynamics for which the G4 is famous. To allow less restricted canopy deployment from this new design, we chose to split the main bag." Interesting... after reading that and looking at the pics, I now feel more "informed", which is an excellent thing to be when it comes to skydiving and gear.