obelixtim

Amen..............(you forgot it)..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Its easy to give up skydiving for all the reasons and more that you see on this thread.....the key is "desire"....... Its also easy to blame experienced skydivers for ignoring junior/intermedite jumpers, and often its true, but remember every experienced skydiver was once a turkey, and has been there, done that.......we know what its like......got the "T" shirt... We've all had to break thru the brick wall of indifference, money, weather, gear, aeroplanes, and a zillion other obstacles to jumping, to clock up the jumps and experience we have over time......no one ever said it was easy.... Nothings changed, in fact, skydiving is easier today than ever before....there's just more people involved....and so thats what most senior skydivers are busy doing.....making it happen....nothing personal..... You've got to battle on and be persistent.....but you will get there......if you have the desire.....like everybody else who's been around....its hard work.... No free lunches here brother!!!... Now just get out that door!!!.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Well said..... Apart from a couple of bits.....a mistake in skydiving is rarely fatal......because fatalities are actually quite rare......I've seen heaps of people get away with major mistakes.....but one or two others die thru tiny errors....... Basically, I think, if your number is up......you're gonna go....whatever you're doing at the time........ I 've never considered anyone a skydiver/parachutist until they've jumped solo......tandem is just a passenger ride.....just like a flight in a commercial aircraft doesn't make a person a pilot....however tandems are really important in introducing people to the sport............ Skydiving didn't become "normal" till tandems came along......winning a 50 year battle for acceptance by the public and politicians as something normal to do, as opposed to an activity previously perceived as something only for lunatics or the military...... Seeing an 82 year old doing a tandem in 1989, realising he was born about the same time the Wright brothers flew, just blew me away.....an impossibility made real......hugely good stuff.... Amazingly, it the first time I've ever seen a statement that concurs with a belief I've always held.... That AFF doesn't prepare you to jump solo..... The intensive training about the freefall part of the jump dominates, (with good reason), but, at the same time, doesn't cover in depth some of the other aspects (canopy control, emergency drillls, self reliance) to the degree it could do.......... The evidence for this opinion, apart from my own observation, is the evidence I see on these boards every day......an appalling level of ignorance about skydiving by people who have a mostly AFF background......it regularly shocks me... As an instructor, its always been my mission to make sure people do at least TWO jumps on their first day if at all possible......retention rates are huge if it happens......and its actually very little extra work......95% of which is done before jump #1 anyway........... At a wild, rough, guess however, just to throw some numbers around, out of 10,000 solo first jumpers I've trained.....probably 3,000 did a second jump, and about 500 got to "A" licence (25 jumps). 23 became tandem masters, 15 became instructors, and 5 now own and run their own DZ's. None of them died skydiving. A couple smacked themselves up pretty good thru simple brainlocks, and did hospital time for it...... 4 had mals on their first jump, and dealt with properly.... A lot did only one jump, "to see what it was like". Fine by me........its all they intended to do.... I'm quite proud of these figures.. The problems preventing retention are pretty standard......weather, money, family pressure. Fear was never really a factor.......testament to my brilliant training.....and awesome personality...... I'd be interested to see a few other figures, but I would be surprised to see any that are better...which shows that retention rates aren't that great................ Over 30 years though, I think retention rates have improved......but its a lot easier to skydive today than it used to be....... I think everyone should do one.....its a life changing experience..... NOTHING else compares....... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I rest my case.......... Actually, I've had lots of dealings with military trained jumpers, going as far back as WW2 veterans who I've retrained to jump in their 70's, and who I respect and admire to the max...... The ones who run the BPA are, however, in my opinion, a bunch of wankers..... I challenge any of them to prove me wrong... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

PC's.....SLEDS......shit boys you're showing your age......... If you could get a Sled to open you were a lucky boy....they were fine when open....but......fun to watch the spinning mals each weekend......probably would have been fine if the slider had been invented....the strato star killed them stone dead....even with the original reefing line rope... Why even go there???.... Best to leave those canopies in canopy heaven (or hell) where they belong..... I still have a P.C. snow white like the one in Skies Call 2 or 3......only 20 jumps on it....beautiful canopy.....might jump it again when I lose 40 pounds.......last time I did I had to put it in a student rig..... It was weird.....round main with a square reserve...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I did say that there are exceptions...I've met plenty of switched on British jumpers....but my "generalisation" of the negative attitude about the way jumping is run is one I will stick to.....and it perpetuates itself because not enough people know any better..... As you say, there are many obstacles to jumping...weather, planes etc....but that is exactly why the obstacles put up by humans are by far the worst.....and in my book are totally unacceptable and unforgiveable....... To quote a well known phrase...."if you arn't gonna piss......get off the pot....." Too many tossers are spoiling the scene in Britain, and need to get out of the way and let things happen.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Not harsh at all....I've experienced DZ's in 8 different countries over 30 years, and trained thousands of students (many British) and I've never come across a country with skydiving run by such incompetants as I've found in Britain. The BPA is run by a bunch of self serving fuddy duddies who think that they are gods gift to the sport......but who haven't got the slightest idea of what is necessary to run this sport in the 21st century...... The British scene is a good 35-40 years behind the rest of the world in terms of professionalism and attitude...... I've never ever come across a national mindset which is so overwhelmingly amateur and negative, and puts so many obstacles in the way of having fun. This is why you see so many Brits taking up skydiving in countries where the attitude is "make it happen". The story that starts this thread is so typical of Britain. An example of this attitude is an occasion when I accompanied a friend to a first jump course...it took one and a half days to train 10 students, and 4 hours to jump them all out of a turbine aircraft. After they had jumped there was still 4 hours of daylight, perfect conditions......and not ONE of them was even asked if they would like to do another jump, yet most would have done so. So 10 potentially good jumpers, all potential future instructors, jumpmasters, or quality competitors, were lost forever. No one will ever know......and how many times has that scenario been repeated...... The chief instructor was an arrogant, incompetant dolt.....who, I found out later, was a very big cheese on the BPA executive. I've trained a group of 20 first jumpers (S/L) on a Saturday morning, and jumped them all out of a 4 place aircraft, by the Sunday evening some had done 9 jumps, and were going to 9 grand doing 30 second freefalls......the plane didn't stop except for fuel, and we had 4 student rigs to jump.....and there was just myself and one JM.......we worked our butts off.....but it shows what is possible.....my job is to make jumping happen......... I'd love to see the turnaround times of the aircraft on the DZ this thread originates from.... Of course there are probably individual jumpers in Britain who are exceptions to my experience, but I would bet they have experience of efficient DZ's in other places, and despite that, are still subject to the antiquated attitudes of the BPA. Plenty of British jumpers agree with me.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I agree......most DZ's in the UK couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.....don't waste your time there....go abroad......save yourself a lot of time and frustration at the hands of pedantic no nothings..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Fear is a by product of ignorance or the unknown.......and most times is irrational...... A little bit of fear is OK, but if anyone is getting into a plane terrified then I'm wondering what the hell they are doing...... If you don't know about something, or are bothered about something.....then FIND OUT ABOUT IT from someone who does......its not rocket science, and skydiving information is not secret!!!!.... And don't waste time worrying about things that are not relevant to your current status or experience level...... OK!!!!....... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Be careful....some of those Asian ladyboys will fool you easily........ And didn't Scott of the Antarctic end up pretty dead in the end......... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I think it would show he's not very smart....and is an indicator that he has the potential to mess up in the future.....wouldn't pull his rating, but he would be on "probation", and his rating would be at risk if he didn't clean up his act. I would regard it as a clear warning signal......and at my DZ he would be doing 2 or 3 static line jumps minimum, because I regard his screw up more serious because if anyone should, HE should know better....and he should be setting an example...I'd also be giving him a warning and keeping a close eye on him in the future...... Tandem Masters should be better than that, because they have had more intensive, specialised training....and even though it is Tandem specific, the principles apply to all disciplines..... A tandem master seen on the end of the dope rope would be a great encouragement to all the other hotshots who think they can flout the rules and also lessen the arguments and self justification I have to put up with when someone needs a rev up. Disciplinary action must be seen to be fair and without favour if it is to be effective.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Its easy to set up a rig for a SL jump, any rigger worth his salt should easily be able to explain it.....ask one who's been around for a while... As for you enjoying hop "n" pops..... Hmmmm.......you'll just have to take my last option.....I'd just have to give you the bash!!!........ My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I'm sure that a SL can be found somewhere on most DZ's. It would take me about 5 minutes to set up any rig (sport or student) so it can be Static lined quite safely......all you need is a breaktie, and some elastic bungy to use as a closing loop, a carabiner and strong point in the plane..... Thats what I did with the 4 way team I put out....all jumped their own rigs.... Most riggers will have this sort of stuff amongst all the junk they collect..... Don't agree at all with the tandem pax option.... A better option would be to make them do a solo hop'n'pop from the same altitudes......3 grand and 2 grand.....its quite safe to do a sub terminal from that altitude.......but it does make their eyes bug out a bit.....seeing what the ground looks like from that altitude......message beginning to sink in...... If they bitch about it being too low to get out safely, I point out that the reason they are there is because they didn't seem to have a problem with screaming thru that height at terminal just now....... They usually go fairly quiet about then.....message received loud and clear..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Did it to a hotshot 4 way team one time who smoked it down doing points.....opened at about a grand...... It actually turned into a fun load as I dispatched them at 2 grand, lots of banter and laughter in the plane, and exaggerated "student" type shenanigans..... However the point was well made and well remembered by everyone at the DZ, and those guys appreciated the fact that they didn't get grounded....however they then became great advocates for altitude awareness, and became good examples for everyone else... What could have turned into a nasty shit fight with lots of bad feeling turned into a positive learning experience for everyone. Like I said there is no point in discipline if a lesson isn't learned and it can be done in a positive way.... I've never seen a grounding achieve the same effect.....ever.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Most people who are not "cut out" for the sport quit of their own volition....thats their decision and I respect that..... However, I've never ever told someone they should take up bowling, and never would....perhaps if there was a compelling medical reason I might...but even then I would try to accommodate them if possible...and I've trained people to do solo's who do have medical issues, but not enough to disqualify them in my mind.....(In NZ people do not have to get a medical clearance from a doctor to jump..we believe people are capable of making their own decisions, they are adults after all).... Plenty of people have problems, and if they are still keen on the sport I will show them how to overcome their problems and how to enjoy skydiving safely....its all about patience, encouragement, and education.... I have seen plenty of people who would be written off as useless by most overcome their problems and become good skydivers.....to me they are a challenge.... If someone is not capable of handling an emergency it will be because they haven't been trained properly... and I will find that out before they get in the plane the first time.....and rectify that situation to make sure they are capable...... Someone on the board last week with 30 jumps was saying that they weren't sure that they had the strength to pull their reserve in an emergency....I found that totally unbelievable... There are no bad students....only bad instructors.... As far as being scared of people in the air I make sure people are jumping within their capabilities, and don't put myself in a position where they can take me out..... So yes, I can say that I've spent this long in the sport and I've never trained anyone who I've later had to ground for good. I have confidence in my training methods, the equipment I provide, and the people I deal with.....too many people are afraid to trust themselves and others...I prefer to be positive... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I disagree...I think grounding is a waste of time in most cases. There are often other, better ways to get the point across..... I can see why Perris has made the rule though, because a DZ can't afford to have unnecessary bad PR, and regardless of who is at fault when a bounce occurs, the DZ always pays a price....as do the people who live and work there.....If people are going to ignore basic survival rules in great numbers, then they have to get a bit ruthless... And skydiving CAN be for everyone because there are enough different disciplines to cater for all sorts of jumpers...as long as people are properly trained then they can jump safely.....and why shouldn't everyone have the opportunity to enjoy what we know is great..... I've spent a lot of time helping people experience the thrill of a lifetime.....and I enjoy seeing them buzz out big time.......... I thought the "elitist" bullshit went out of skydiving in the mid 70's......and I'll fight anyone who has the arrogance to say skydiving "is only for a few". Total horseshit!!!... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

A TM should be better than that, its way more serious because he's responsible for another persons life, and has been specifically trained and examined so as to not be in that position....there is NO excuse, and to my mind no second chance for him to do it again.....because he is made fully aware of his responsibilities when he goes thru his training.... Its exactly the same if a rigger leaves a temporary pin in a reserve...(I've found one...a certain total on the reserve).....bye bye riggers rating... For a solo jumper, on my DZ, he will get to reacquaint himself with a set of student equipment on the end of a static line, at 3000ft if he's a student, 2000 ft if he is an experienced jumper.....he will do one or more jumps like that, depending on his attitude...... If the jumper objects to that regime, he has another option involving sex and travel, but he will never jump at my DZ again till he's done his SL jumps, no matter how long it takes.... Low dumping thru loss of altitude awareness at my DZ is very rare....everyone remembers the last Static Liner, and they are talked about for many years, the culprits are never allowed to forget it by their mates...... I don't believe grounding is effective at all....it is always turned into a personal thing by the person who refuses to accept they've done wrong. Very few jumpers will accept a grounding as justified....so they will not regard it as a learning experience.... You can approach disciplinary proceedings in a positive way sometimes.....because everyone fucks up at least once in their skydiving career..... Thats the way I deal with it, and most people regard it as fair....... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I agree...peer pressure works best.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

If the TM lost altitude awareness, his rating should be pulled.....permanently.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I've never believed that grounding is an effective deterrent.....it just delays or removes the offender for a while but doesn't really address or "cure" the problem behaviour...... My way of dealing with low dumpers is not to ground them, rather they must do 1, or maybe more, static line jumps.....at 3 grand for students, 2 grand for "A" licence and above.....they get to jump, see the ground from a lower altitude, slowly and safely......and come to the notice of every other jumper on the DZ..... I tell you, students just love seeing someone with more jumps than them going out on SL.....and senior jumpers totally dread the thought of having to do so........but everyone agrees its a fairer and more effective solution than a grounding...... Even the jumpers who have had to do it say that they have learnt their lesson, and will usually later admit that doing a SL jump was actually quite fun.....a nostalgia trip, simple and easy and over with in 30 minutes or less......but the point is ingrained in their consciousness..... If people want extra freefall, I tell them to get out another 1000 feet higher.....do it at the top.... I can tell you that the embarrassment factor ensures no repeat behaviour.....and the point about the dangers of low dumping and its consequences is well made to everyone....its certainly well discussed at beer o'clock in the bar...... The one ego tripper who refused to comply and who flounced off the DZ in a huff, effectively grounded himself from the DZ anyway.....and found that when he tried to jump at another DZ that word of his actions and reaction had preceeded his arrival there.....and he'd acquired an addition to his reputation....now he's regarded as a tosser, as well as a low dumper............shot himself in the foot big time.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Stupid student = stupider instructor...... End of story........ ("What story???"...."no story"...."straight to bed!!!").... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I would have thought its a lot easier and cheaper just to learn to pack properly in the first place.... Oh....and to dump in a stable position as well.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I think it wasn't odd at all.....they didn't print it because it was too close to the bone.......but like all blind wankers round the world.....when the truth hurts, they think that if they ignore it....it'll just go away.... What they don't consider however, is that my opinion is permanent...and I won't hesitate to share it.......again......like now..... The BPA is the most incompetant bunch of tossers play acting as a national skydiving organisation in the world.....bar none.....they are 20 years behind the rest of the world in terms of professionalism, safety, and attitude....and the hierarchy are so far up their own arses they've got brown rings around their ankles....... One day the skydivers of Great Britain will realise that fact....toss the pricks out....and reorganise skydiving properly, as a professional aviation organisation should be ......or else someone will tell CAA how it really can be done.....properly....and cut them off at the knees...... I'd do it myself.....but I can't really be bothered.....but it would be easy if someone wanted to do it......and had a bit of time to waste..... I wouldn't give them the steam off my shit, let alone the time of day...... End of rant!!!...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Throwing away handles is no big deal....the handles are unimportant in the big scheme of things....however, after opening.....look straight down and pick up a reference point on the ground directly below you.....and use that as a starting point for a ground search...most times you will find the handles again.... Of more concern are the stories of the riggers who cocked up here.....verifying a canopy is correctly hooked up is no more than a 5 second job....and particularly important when assembling gear....in fact if the rigger hasn't done this very simple and basic check then he should not have a riggers rating..... Sheer laziness or incompetance is clearly evident here.....and the issue should be taken further and definitly NOT ignored. These individuals are responsible for peoples lives, and they obviously do not take their responsibilities seriously. DO something about it...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I admire your resilience and will to succeed in the face of such obstacles.....its sad to think of the number of students this wanker has driven away from the sport..... Wouldn't happen to be a tosser who trains in the London area by any chance...who jumps out near Oxford......???. I visited a DZ near London with a workmate who was doing her first jump training...went along as her "taxi driver" and sat thru her training without letting anyone know who I was........ I couldn't believe the incompetence I witnessed, and was even abused in front of the class when the instructor invited me to jump......I said I was "too scared"....and he really opened up on me...... This twat didn't even turn up till 2 pm on the day of the jump...his students had been at the DZ since 8 a.m. I actually completed the harness training for the class because I felt so sorry for them, and because their training was way below the standard they needed..... He finally arrived (hung over), and realising that I wasn't what he thought, he then proceeded to try to ingratiate himself (I think he thought I was a CAA inspector) with me.........my response to him isn't printable!!!.... He was damn lucky I didn't punch him....and had I the same powers I have in my own country I would have pulled all his ratings on the spot... Interestingly the military instructors at the airbase where we jumped seemed to have the same opinion of him....he was ex military himself, and I believe, a member of the BPA safety and training committee....unbelievable...... Needless to say my opinion of the BPA isn't very high at all......but perhaps people like this need to be publicly exposed and embarrassed......he is obviously responsible for untold damage to the parachute community......I could have been a potential sponsor or anybody....I've never seen such an arrogant, incompetant slimeball in all my years of skydiving...... Why don't you write an article for the BPA magazine....I did....but guess what???...it wasn't printed....the excuse was that I wasn't a BPA member.....incredible..... Good luck with your jumping....there is plenty of time....and good things will happen......luckily there are a lot more good people out there than there are twats.......stick with it...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....