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CloudyHead

Two canopy out.. to release or not release?

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At our safety day last month there were some people who had questions about a two out.
One of the senior instructors tolds us that the Australians have done all kinds of tests with a two out and the result was it's always best to chop if you are in this situation.
Now I haven't seen him since then but I wanted to ask where to find some vids or articles about this because you always here or read multiple different answers and opinions.
I certainly would feel better if I had only one canopy above my head :)

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Rise of the Zombie Thread!

I'm too lazy to scroll back through the thread and see if this one has been posted yet, so I'll just post it. http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

If ever I find myself in a stable flying two-out situation, I'd do minimum of inputs (as in, enough to ensure I land somewhere that is not high-voltage or will otherwise kill me), but keep it at that.

Also keep in mind, the most likely way to get a two-out is if you burn through your altitude, deploy your main while your AAD also wakes up. In that case, there's not a lot of altitude left to mess around.

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Pit76

At our safety day last month there were some people who had questions about a two out.
One of the senior instructors tolds us that the Australians have done all kinds of tests with a two out and the result was it's always best to chop if you are in this situation.
Now I haven't seen him since then but I wanted to ask where to find some vids or articles about this because you always here or read multiple different answers and opinions.
I certainly would feel better if I had only one canopy above my head :)



Not sure if that is true at all. As far as I know very little meaningful testing has been done with this scenario anywhere, and I'm sure chopping every time is not necessarily the best way to deal with it. RSLs play a part in this, they need to be disconnected before a chop.

There are a lot of variables, and like many problems, what is successful one day, may very well kill you the next. You will always get a variety of opinions and answers, there simply is no right or wrong answer.

I've seen a student land a biplane, they picked up both sets of toggles and steered both canopies together, which I thought was quite a good way to deal with a two out that has biplaned, but I would not go so far as to say that is the perfect solution.

Like has been said, every scenario has to be dealt with on its merits. Logically, if you have a stable situation, and you have to steer, you need to first make sure your RSL is disconnected (in case you need to chop if it turns sour) then be VERY gentle with inputs to steer.

Doing nothing is an option, at least you have plenty of fabric over you and shouldn't land too hard. I wouldn't be worried too much about making the DZ if there is clear ground underneath you.

Staying calm will aid your chance of survival.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Pit76

At our safety day last month there were some people who had questions about a two out.
One of the senior instructors tolds us that the Australians have done all kinds of tests with a two out and the result was it's always best to chop if you are in this situation.
Now I haven't seen him since then but I wanted to ask where to find some vids or articles about this because you always here or read multiple different answers and opinions.
I certainly would feel better if I had only one canopy above my head :)



If your main is in front of your reserve, I can see how chopping would almost certainly ruin your day. In case it is the other way around, still plenty of risk that your reserve gets either ripped to pieces, entangled or otherwise useless.

Compare that to the risk of landing with two canopies above your head (no big deal) and te choice gets real easy for me.

I'm surprised an instructor would give the advise you got. Are you sure you didn't mis understand him?

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Parachutist Online also has a decent article from 2012:
https://parachutistonline.com/feature/two-over-one

I haven't checked it out in close detail, but it provides a lot of advice based on the prior studies. (The Army study, PD's followup, and the PIA paper that came out of them.)

I don't know whether or not there has been additional work by the Aussie's (APF). They do however publicize the Dual Square report on their website and offer their own 1 page summary poster as well:
https://www.apf.com.au/ArticleDocuments/137/2_canopies_out_Updated_2017.pdf.aspx?Embed=Y

@Pit 76:
This suggests that they don't have any new conclusions that differ from the Dual Square report.

EDIT:
Still, I see that the poster says:
"The ABOVE is only a summary and differs slightly (based on more recent best practice), from the original PIA report."

Where they got the changes, I don't know.

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Pit76

the Australians have done all kinds of tests with a two out and the result was it's always best to chop if you are in this situation.


This is very BAD advice. I hope you misheard, rather than he misspoke.

If you're in a biplane situation, with the main canopy in front, chopping the main canopy will send your lines and risers back into the lines of your reserve. This has a good chance of causing an entanglement of the two canopies.

The best option is to release the brakes and steer the front canopy. As it turns, its trailing edge will push on the nose of the trailing canopy, making it turn also. I've done CRW biplanes where we spiraled like mad. The biplane stayed stable the whole time.

Look, no one wants to have two canopies out at once (although it's better than NO canopies out), but if you have a stable biplane, just fly it. Don't chop it. Landing biplanes has a high success rate. Chopping them doesn't.

jm vm stack small.jpg

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JohnMitchell

***the Australians have done all kinds of tests with a two out and the result was it's always best to chop if you are in this situation.


This is very BAD advice. I hope you misheard, rather than he misspoke.

If you're in a biplane situation, with the main canopy in front, chopping the main canopy will send your lines and risers back into the lines of your reserve. This has a good chance of causing an entanglement of the two canopies.

The best option is to release the brakes and steer the front canopy. As it turns, its trailing edge will push on the nose of the trailing canopy, making it turn also. I've done CRW biplanes where we spiraled like mad. The biplane stayed stable the whole time.

Look, no one wants to have two canopies out at once (although it's better than NO canopies out), but if you have a stable biplane, just fly it. Don't chop it. Landing biplanes has a high success rate. Chopping them doesn't.

Quite agree.

If 100 people with biplanes just chop, a good number of them will end up very, very dead!

Next time you see him, ask him to explain what will happen if one canopy has gone between the lines of the other during deployment (quite likely if an AAD fire coincides with main pitch) and the jumper chops the main.

His answer should be along the lines of attending a funeral in the next week or so!
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Jaysus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4x1ptlBF1Q

here is the video from the APF

Thanks for that. And yes, they show landing the biplane, not chopping the biplane. Very good. I always like to emphasize the reason for NOT chopping the biplane when I teach these procedures. :)
Edited to add that I knew a guy who chopped a nice flying, stable biplane at about 100 feet. It entangled into his reserve and he spun in, receiving fatal injuries. So this is not idle speculation on my part. [:/]

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I've had a two-out biplane. Softest landing in a canola field I've ever had.

I flew that thing very gently, checking altitude, checking my clear landing area, checking that I wasn't backing up into anything.

We teach not to cut away a biplane, and I would never cut away a biplane (unless something super funky was happening).

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JohnMitchell

Yes, we teach "flare halfway."

Thanks for the reply. :)




I've seen others teach to not even release the brakes and to only do gentle riser turns. Making only riser flares possible. What do you teach about releasing the brakes in what order or which canopy?

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Release the brakes on the front canopy. Leave the brakes set on the back canopy. Steer the front canopy gently. Flare halfway for landing.

I still wonder why so many sources say "don't flare a biplane". I've seen it done with a very good landing. Anyone with a definitive answer?

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JohnMitchell

I still wonder why so many sources say "don't flare a biplane". I've seen it done with a very good landing. Anyone with a definitive answer?



That is what they tought me as a student, and what the consensus at my dropzone is. So it's also what I teach my students.

My understanding is that flaring is not neccesary, because of the low speed. Flaring a good flying configuration might make things worse, therefore the advise is to not flare, and prepare for a PLF.

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JohnMitchell

I still wonder why so many sources say "don't flare a biplane". I've seen it done with a very good landing. Anyone with a definitive answer?



Page 4 of the dual square report (found on the PD website: http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf) says:

PD dual square report


Landing a personal biplane proved to be easy with large canopies, small canopies, heavily loaded canopies, and lightly loaded canopies. Flaring the front canopy seemed to be the preferred method of landing. However it must be noted that flaring the front canopy, or both, did not produce a significant effect in the landing. The canopy would pitch in attitude, but it did not plane out or slow in descent rate much if at all. The descent rate on all canopy combinations was very slow, even in full flight.

Recognizing the student and novice jumpers propensity to flare high, combined with the non effectiveness of a dual square flare, leads us to believe that not flaring at all is the best way to land a dual square.

conclusion: If a biplane is present and the jumper has directional control, leave the brakes stowed on the rear canopy and fly the biplane using gentle toggle input on the front canopy. Do not flare either canopy for landing. Be prepared to do a PLF.

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i borrowed gear one time and had a pilot chute in tow on a hop n pop. when directly to reserve and (no surprise) ended up with 2 out. both canopies 120's. the 2 out was a biplane but a real handful to fly. maybe because the main and reserve were same size. the LAST thing i wanted to do was cut away the main and end up with the worst case scenario. I released the toggles on the front canopy, main. and landed it it by flaring. was not able to get close to the landing area,,,that is how much trouble it was to fly. if doing again i would perhaps not flare,,,,since had 240 sq ft over my head. now on my own gear i replace the pilot chute every 500 jumps. prevent at all cost.

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Hows retirement John? And the only thing that ever really scared me (besides the airplane) was a two out. I liked to hum them low so if I had a two-out my fat ass would be deep in the no no zone LOL. On our pops record attempt in Nevada I got to watch a two-out happen 50' below me :o I had my hand on my cutaway as my main was opening as I was watching his reserve come out and looking over my shoulder expecting my to come out too. Still either amazing or very worrisome all of us didn't have two outs since all of us where within +/- 50' of each other when we dumped, no time to track when your beeper is flatlining in your ear. Made the centerfold of parachutist though ;) The person with the two out landed nice and soft didn't mess with it but then we only had about 15-second
canopy rides :ph34r:

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

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catfishhunter

Hows retirement John?

Not bad, but I've been having to do a lot of tandems in Hawaii to make ends meet. :DB|



Quote

And the only thing that ever really scared me (besides the airplane) was a two out. The person with the two out landed nice and soft didn't mess with it but then we only had about 15-second
canopy rides :ph34r:

:o Damn, that's a bit low.

2 out is bad, but my biggest fear these days is a low altitude canopy collision. [:/]

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