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HGpilot

Hang gliding question.

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Firstly how did you arrive the conclusion that " WE ALL DISAGREE WITH YOU"?

Not everyone think like you on here I'm afraid, the greatest minds of wingsuit at the moment share the same ideas as me, so I dont know how you arrive to the conclusion of "WE ALL DISAGREE WITH YOU"

I'm in contact with 2 main manufactures, and soon one of the latest wingsuit that will be released, have a little of my ideas on it!


Secondly you text is boring, you did an enormous text saying the same boring thing.

We already discuss it before, and we all VERY WELL AWARE, about the drag and muscle fadique.

What I suggest is a fiber from wing tip to wing tip cross the back of the pilot witch helps him keeping his arms open without any efforts, of course the fiber have a joint on the back to allow the pilot close the wing inside the plane and to walk and also to dive and have access to the handle chute

Anyway as other wingsuits designers aware me, to not waist my time and precious ideas in a forum full closed minded "jumpers" you guys are wearing an airfoil capable to fly, so stop thinking like jumpers, get a book about free flight and start learning to be a pilot and be less ignorants!

Anyway you seems to be very sure that with latest technologies and new ideas, nothing is going to work and nothing is going to change, so I will leave you to your small world after all I cant change your mind can I?

Best Regards

Giselle





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soon wingsuits will be big enough to be able to fly up in thermals and ridge soaring give it 5-10 years time.



You do realize why we all disagree with you on this, right Giselle? I don't think anyone ever fully explained it previously. I think most people basically said "no, that won't work", but didn't elaborate. I'm going to lay this out for you and hopefully it will clarify some of your ideas. Hopefully, you can take this information and rethink your designs. We would welcome you in the skydiving community (if you haven't already started jumping) and the wingsuit community (once you get the appropriate experience). And we would welcome you to design suits, once you understand the forces that are actually at work on the wingsuit pilot. But believe me - if something approaching your design actually could work, Tony/Jeff and/or Robi would have snatched up the approach and made the Condor, the Q-Bird, or whatever the Hell they would call it.

Enthusiasm is a great thing, and something that should be encouraged, but enthusiasm without an understanding of how the physics of gliding works or an understand of what has been attempted before is a dead end.

OK, here we go:

As you increase the size of a wing (the wingspan), you also increase the "induced drag" created by the wing. In layman's terms, that means the bigger the wing, the more the wingsuiter's arms are put under strain. At some point, even a very strong human will not be able to hold the wing open in flight due to the load placed on his arms.

So, absent some form of airframe, I highly doubt even the strongest of us would be able to hold open the wing that you have in your avatar.

Take the largest of the current wingsuit designs these days, like the Xbird or the Stealth2. These are tiny wings compared to what you want in your future design, right? But even with those relatively tiny wings, flight is exhausting. Maxed out flight feels like a damn hard work out - there have been times when I've flown an XS or Xbird maxed out, only to find my arms very shaky at pull time. Induced drag is a hell of a strain.

Don't believe me? Check out this guy: http://www.parapente-saintevictoire.com/leshommesoiseaux/rudolf boehlen.jpg. His name was Rudolf Boehlen. He used light weight (for the time) materials to create a very large wing, as you can see. So large that he couldn't even stand up on the ground without assistance (in that picture, there is actually a man standing behind him helping him up). The wing handled, by all accounts, very badly - the induced drag generally pinned his arms closed - or open but one at a time - resulting in crazy spins and erratic falling. Not surprisingly, he died as a result of gear problems.

Now, your reaction to Boehlen may be "but now we have space age polymer whatsit fabric thingies that are way lighter!". But the problem isn't the standing weight of the wing. The problem (as I mentioned before) is the induced drag created by it.

We bump up into limitation imposed by the human body - we didn't evolve from a creature that needed to hold weight in that way, so we don't have the muscles to do so.

OK, so with that background, it becomes clear that a rigid frame is needed, right?

Perhaps the rigid frame is integrated into the "suit". In that case it is functionally a hang glider. Maybe a funky design of a hang glider (one in which you zip up into), but once you add a rigid frame, you're moving away from what we think of as a modern wingsuit and into something that is far more akin to a hang glider. Since there have been a lot of rigid wing "batsuits" in the past, I'm not going to say that such a design wouldn't be considered by some to be a wingsuit, but it would look and function almost nothing like either what is currently in the market or your design. (There's a reason, for example, that hang gliders are generally delta wings, not like the albatross shape you have come up with.)

So why not basically take a hang glider wing and make the attachment for the pilot basically be something he zips up into. There's a reason why: hang glider pilots generally hang a bit BELOW (several feet) the wing - by moving their center of gravity below the wing, the wing become far, far, far more stable. So if the center of gravity is in the wing, stability and control become a major problem. (Research "flying wing" aircraft - there's a reason why you don't see many of them outside of the military, where the design is used because it has a low RADAR profile.)

OK, that means that we need to put the pilot slightly below the wing in our new wingsuit.... Congratulations, we've invented the classic hang glider.

A related problem is that we would need to redesign the parachute harness system. We would need a spring loaded pilot chute design, since the traditional bottom of container deployment system would not be reachable. There are again reasons why people don't like spring loaded pilot chutes. If you look into the history of that, you'll find out more.

Another problem is that you won't (easily) be able to exit from an aircraft - at least an aircraft other than a tailgate aircraft. Several people (Leo Valentin being the most famous) died using rigid wing designs that either didn't quite get out the door safely (Valentin's broke when it hit the door frame and it killed him) or were designed to "snap open" and the the predictable went wrong.

So basically your dream of gliding thermals is a great one and I applaud it. However, you're starting from the wrong point - you should be thinking about hang gliders, not wingsuits. It's as though you said "I want to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro, so I should learn to kayak." It's the wrong tool for the job. Could you modify a wingsuit to achieve your goal? Maybe, but at the end of your modifications, the resulting thing would look far more like a hang glider than a wingsuit. It also won't look like your albatross design (research hang glider shapes to learn why). It would be more of a delta wing.

As I said before, I really like your enthusiasm. And this isn't a case of "they laughed at the Wright Brothers, too" (they laughed at Bozo the Clown for what that's worth). But this is a case of a lot of years spent - and many lives lost - by many experienced engineers, equipment manufacturers and experienced test pilots providing feedback and evolving the technology that we have.

Good luck.


Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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What I suggest is a fiber from wing tip to wing tip cross the back of the pilot witch helps him keeping his arms open without any efforts, of course the fiber have a joint on the back to allow the pilot close the wing inside the plane and to walk and also to dive and have access to the handle chute



It might work. But it's not a wingsuit.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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You keep reverting to us being closed minded. Hardly. We all want to do what you're talking about. It's just not going to work, the way you described it. We're experimenting with other approaches because we think your direction isn't going to work. I'm partial to Visa Parviainen's jet engine project, myself.

So, I'll make this bet: if, by January 14, 2021, there is a commercially available wingsuit (using Hoover's definition) big enough to be able to fly up in thermals(1), then I will pay you $5000. I don't care who makes the suit.

If there aren't, you'll post on whatever skydiving Internet forum that exists at the time that you are sincerely sorry you were rude and obnoxious - not to me (you can call me boring all you want), but to Lurch, Hoover, and all of the other folks who tried patiently to help you understand why your proposal didn't work.

That's how sure I am.

Do we have a deal?

Footnote (1) "Fly up in thermals" means sustained upward or level non-powered, non-lighter than air flight solely by means of a wingsuit that would permit the user 10 minutes or more of flight.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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Once again you saying WE, why instead of that you say me, Lurch and the other, instead of WE ALL? oh dear...

For sure it is a deal, it will be the easiest 5000 I ever earned!

Thanks for been a man of very sure predictions lol

Speak with you in 20 years, and please keep your word dont disappear with my 5000 quid...

Sometimes the ignorance can be so great that becomes comic...

Take care Skwrl and start saving money =)

BTW, I was never rude with You and Lurch, I was just tired of you and him always asking the same boring question many times, witch we all are tired to know the answer.

If I told lurch to give us a brake, is because there were a reason, he was saying he was a skygod who had created super flying machines and because he failed everyone else will fail.

If you are a wise person, you should know affirmations like that, is at last stupid!

Take care

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So, I'll make this bet: if, by January 14, 2021, there is a commercially available wingsuit (using Hoover's definition) big enough to be able to fly up in thermals(1), then I will pay you $5000. I don't care who makes the suit.

That's how sure I am.

Do we have a deal?


Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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I say "we" because there's a crap load of people reading your idea and saying "no, that won't work". They just don't bother posting, because you don't acknowledge any viewpoints but your own.

Out of curiosity, what wingsuiters actually think your design will work? Who are they?

And I'll be here - I'm easily reachable. I'm known in the community. I look forward to your apology.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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I will leave you with your ideas and your super sure predictions.

After all we can not have a constructive healthy conversation if you are so sure that nothing gonna happen.

You said until 2021 but I do believe the wingsuit design will evolve before than this time and for sure I will contact you for my 5000 and your apologies...

By now go flying and relax, no point discussing something that still to happen, or never happen as you said and are sure of it =)
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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1.put two tables together
2.lay on it so that line were tables are connected goes from head down to toes, lay so that half of the body is on the left part of the table and half on the right.
3.tie your hands on the back so you can't put them under you before you will impact on the floor.
4.cover your eyes w the strap so you cant see
5.tell your friends to move the tables simultaneously when you say ready set go..
6Yahoo!!
7.Call the ambulance!!!

This will be the landing at its best if all work like in your dream :)
Do i need to tell you that you shouldn't do it as you may end up w broken neck , Brest cage, internal injuries, etc...
And this is all after fall from 1m without any horizontal speed, woithout any WS :))
cheers R
Robert Pecnik
robert@phoenix-fly.com
www.phoenix-fly.com

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Another one come talking about Y when we are talking about X

My dear, we are talking about flying not landing,

I always said and say that wingsuit is too small and fast for landing yet! I already left a comment in another topic, witch I think it is not the time for landing a wingsuit yet.

Then they ask why you lose your patience or be rude, thats one of the reasons...

Before post a nonsense thing, learn the previous replys and try to get acknowledged of what people are talking about then post something constructive!




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1.put two tables together
2.lay on it so that line were tables are connected goes from head down to toes, lay so that half of the body is on the left part of the table and half on the right.
3.tie your hands on the back so you can't put them under you before you will impact on the floor.
4.cover your eyes w the strap so you cant see
5.tell your friends to move the tables simultaneously when you say ready set go..
6Yahoo!!
7.Call the ambulance!!!

This will be the landing at its best if all work like in your dream :)
Do i need to tell you that you shouldn't do it as you may end up w broken neck , Brest cage, internal injuries, etc...
And this is all after fall from 1m without any horizontal speed, woithout any WS :))
cheers R


Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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After all we can not have a constructive healthy conversation if you are so sure that nothing gonna happen.



That's not what I said at all.

I think there will be a lot of improvements to wingsuits in the next ten years. And I (and others) would welcome your input and suggestions on them. It would be great to have another eye coming up with designs. Any ideas that make wingsuit performance better and safer are fantastic, no matter who comes up with them. We welcome your input.

My point is that I don't think the END RESULT will be the performance gains that you're talking about - at least not in the next 10 years - due to the limitations I outlined in my boring post.

So by all means, Giselle, help us come up with better and safer designs. All I ask is that you be grounded in reality. If I suggested that you "Paint a bird on the back of your wingsuit, that will give you the strength of a bird, which will allow you to fly further!", everyone would point and laugh, because that's not how physics works. I might tinker with the idea. But after a few people pointed that out to me using basic principles of flight - maybe even by a few who painted birds on their wingsuits to try it out - I wouldn't say, "you don't truly understand the power of the bird-image, you're closed minded...", I'd try to come up with another idea.

Great inventors don't say "my idea is going to work no matter what". Because it might not. Great inventors learn from the mistakes made by others and the experiences that others have had.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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After all we can not have a constructive healthy conversation if you are so sure that nothing gonna happen.



That's not what I said at all.

Great inventors don't say "my idea is going to work no matter what". Because it might not. Great inventors learn from the mistakes made by others and the experiences that others have had.



Exactly! I agree 100% with what you said now, now you are starting been a wise person, but unfortunately you are contradicting yourself with what you previously posted!

Anyway Now that you are start changing your mind ad been a more wise person, I hope you dont run away with my 5000 or cancel our deal...

Now keep your word!
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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To back sqwrl up, I will throw another 5k 10 years from now if there is a suit made of just fabric that allows us to maintain or gain altitude while falling/flying through the sky. This does not include hard shell, glider design, or engines. Good luck!



In what moment inn all my replys I said that the wingsuit would be able to soar without some rigid help?

Could you please show me?

Honestly this forum is tiring....

I'm sorry but I wont bother to reply this kind of misunderstand comments...

As top wingsuit designers said, keep away from forums!

I should have heard them

waste of time
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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Exactly! I agree 100% with what you said now, now you are starting been a wise person, but unfortunately you are contradicting yourself with what you previously posted!



Ummmm.... Wut? In what way did I contradict myself. Actually, don't bother answering...

And like I said, I'm not going anywhere and am good for the cash (people who know me in the wingsuiting community can vouch for me in that regard).

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As top wingsuit designers said, keep away from forums!

I should have heard them



I think this is your bestest idea yet. ;)
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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As top wingsuit designers said, keep away from forums!

I should have heard them



I think this is your bestest idea yet. ;)



For sure it is, Nothing to learn in our conv, only to hear nonsense affirmations =)

Actually I was only answering the question about HG from our fellow free flight pilot, when you started stating your 100% sure predictions =')

Anyway I will be back soon to remember my $5000 be sure =)
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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In what moment inn all my replys I said that the wingsuit would be able to soar without some rigid help?



Wingsuits aren't rigid.

The biggest problem here isn't that you think a wingsuit can soar, it's that you don't recognize the definition of a wingsuit.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Ya'll figure out how to make a wing suit go up in a thermal, then I wont need my hang gliders any more.

My Sport 2 has 155 sq. feet of wing area. It needs this area in order to have a light enough wing loading to be foot launch able and land able.

A wing suit does not need to be foot launch able or land able . So I would estimate you could thermal a wing suit with as little as 100 sq. feet of wing area. I don't see how this could be supported with out a structure of some kind .

Steve

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In what moment inn all my replys I said that the wingsuit would be able to soar without some rigid help?



Wingsuits aren't rigid.

The biggest problem here isn't that you think a wingsuit can soar, it's that you don't recognize the definition of a wingsuit.



So the Vampire4 the X-bird the new Fusion all of them are not wingsuits?

Because they got rigid extensions frames on their wings.

Now probably you gonna say " ah but it is just small"

Everything is relative, so if the frame from the Vampire3 was a bit longer that connected in the back of the pilot the vampire3 would not be a wingsuit anymore but a hanglider?

A football ball is oval, a soccer ball is round but they still both balls.

Paragliders now have rigid fibers inside them, and they still pragliders!

Please open your mind people...
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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I was doing tandems in Lodi at that time, do you remember who your tandem master was?

Having done hangliding back in the late 70's, before I started skydiving, the one thing I remember is how much it added to my dreams. I only got to Hang 2 off of Ft. Funston before I bent my modified Rogallo after a stall and crash halfway up the cliff. My skydiving dreams don't last as long.

On thing about flying parachutes over hang gliders, we can get out at 12K, next to a cloud tower and fly all around and inside it. There are rainbow canyons and rooms inside some of them. Carving clouds in wingsuits is also pretty cool, it's why I bought one.

May have to try paragliding in the future. Proximity flying is a ways off.

madjohn



It must have more like 91 or92. I don't remember the jump master name . I do remember he was wearing flip-flops and an altimeter that looked like it came out of gumball machine with the needle stuck at 4500 LOL.

Fort Funston is my favorite place to fly. The launch is well rounded now ( no more rotor ).

Steve

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As you increase the size of a wing (the wingspan), you also increase the "induced drag" created by the wing. In layman's terms, that means the bigger the wing, the more the wingsuiter's arms are put under strain. At some point, even a very strong human will not be able to hold the wing open in flight due to the load placed on his arms.



While I agree with what Skwrl is saying, I disagree with the above statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-induced_drag

Induced drag reduces with increasing span. The shoulder joint and the surrounding muscles have to counter some part of lift and drag.

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Firstly how did you arrive the conclusion that " WE ALL DISAGREE WITH YOU"?



I'm up for creating a poll....!

You dont see me talking a lot of 'I know it all' stuff about hanggliding because Ive never done it, and dont have a clue on how it feels, flies and works.

Sounds a lot like you on wingsuit flying. Its awesome fantasies, but most of it reads like something you'd find on a forum with discussions on Twilight and theories on how we faked the moon landing.

How many wingsuit jumps have you got? Most of your innovation theories turn wingsuits into hanggliders. It shows your experience in one dicipline, and lack of feeling and experience in the other...

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Sometimes the ignorance can be so great that becomes comic...



I'm trying hard not to comment on this one...

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Speak with you in 20 years,



Will you have flown a wingsuit by then?

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I will leave you with your ideas and your super sure predictions.



Again...tryyyying....resisting.....muuuust not....eehhhhh..

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After all we can not have a constructive healthy conversation if you are so sure that nothing gonna happen.



Nobody sais performance wont improve and new innovations wont be made. But keep it within the realm of flying ones body, and (again) dont turn the body into the center spar of a hang-glider with carbon-(f-ing:P)fiber.

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for sure I will contact you for my 5000 and your apologies...



Why appologies? Both of you are talking about your ass when it comes to 'what will be in 20 years'.
Only difference is, he does it with a large background in FLYING wingsuits, and seeing the design, performance and acomplishments evolve. You do it based on what you've seen on YouTube.

I think your biggest flaw is the direction you see this evolve.
You're thinking soaring like a boring human kite, with just the string missing . Most of us are thinking flying at high speed, with our hair on fire, ducking clouds, swooping past canopies, trees or unsuspecting sheep.

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Not everyone think like you on here I'm afraid, the greatest minds of wingsuit at the moment share the same ideas as me



I dont know...so far Ive heard several (non-manufacturer) 'great minds of wingsuit flying' mention you. And most of it was 'look at that monkey' 'who is that idiot' and 'he should talk less and fly more'.

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I'm in contact with 2 main manufactures, and soon one of the latest wingsuit that will be released, have a little of my ideas on it!



Im curious which 2 manufacturers you're in contact with. I know the one Im involved with sure aint on that list...narrows it down a lot..

Its also funny if you use the search function, you will see your 'orginal idea's' have been written down by many non-wingsuit flyers before you.
All adding bits of carbon, ductape, spagethi and sauce to current designs and claiming it flies like a bat out of hell.

If you make claims about 'inventions' you've done and deals you've made...make sure they are not (like most of your stuff 'seems' to be) imaginairy ones..

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Another one come talking about Y when we are talking about X

My dear



Funny...you're patronizing one of the aforementioned 'great minds of wingsuit' yourself.

You come into a place, talk a lot of poop, and call everyone that doesnt agree with your un-informed oppinion an idiot with lack of vision. Try and stop...and think..for one second...that these people are DOING what you are FANTASIZING about....

Fly a wingsuit....you may actually like it...(and understand what its all about). Than enjoy yourself weighing the thing down with kilo's of carbon fiber shizzle and tearing your shoulders from your body by inserting a hangglider into your sleeves...

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Before post a nonsense thing, learn the previous replys and try to get acknowledged of what people are talking about then post something constructive!



The guy builds and designs wingsuits....seems pretty constructive...
He flies wingsuits within 1 meter of the ground, and knows the effects winds, thermals and close proximity to the ground have on his flying...

Seems like you're telling someone off who has more insight into the subject matter than you'll ever have (with your attitude and lack of actual flying and hands on design experience).

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In what moment inn all my replys I said that the wingsuit would be able to soar without some rigid help?



Ahh....the hang-glider mod again...:P

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Honestly this forum is tiring....



Muuusttt...nott.....say...the obvious......

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As top wingsuit designers said, keep away from forums!



Maybe re-read the thread and try and discover why they said it...(in this actual thread in which they posted as well..:P)

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waste of time



Hellp....cant...hold...it.....in...much...longer.....

Maybe try leaving and going to a twilight and conspiricy theory forum...

If you want my 2 cents..
I got your back!
I think its the evil wingsuit cooperations trying to stop you from releasing the ultimate wingsuit, and having everyone experience TRUE human flight. Like Jezus on the cross, but with fabric tied between his arms and legs. Its gonna be awesome!
Dont let these bastards stop you like they did with that engine that runs on water, that shell owns and wont release because they want to sell oil!

Stick it to the man!

p.s.
Mind if I link to this thread from wingsuitnews.com and label it comedy hour?
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Maybe try leaving and going to a twilight and conspiricy theory forum...

If you want my 2 cents..
I got your back!
I think its the evil wingsuit cooperations trying to stop you from releasing the ultimate wingsuit, and having everyone experience TRUE human flight. Like Jezus on the cross, but with fabric tied between his arms and legs. Its gonna be awesome!
Dont let these bastards stop you like they did with that engine that runs on water, that shell owns and wont release because they want to sell oil!

Stick it to the man!



Hi Mccordia, nice to hear your polite words again, are you having a good day? I hope so! =')

Firstly I'm not a man, I'm 23 years old female, Advanced paraglider pilot, I do Modelling work with fashion/design and I'm also a Biologist,specialized in Birds and I've been studying avionics and aerodynamics in the past 4 years.

Your text was long, boring and very tendentious, personal and disrespectful.

Lets go for the facts...

We already have this discussion before, but as usual you are always anpolite, using your answers as the absolutely true and everyone who think different from you and your loved friend should fuck off, because you and your friend know everything that is going to happen in the next 20 years on wingsuit flight in it?


After you call me a monkey and many disrespectful words when you dont know the person I am and tried put all my opinions on the bin, as you are the lord of the true, I will leave it, because there is nothing I can do about it, just give it time and let see if my twilight dream as you ironic say, is really just a dream...

All the best
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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Giselle,

I don't know you and it doesn't really matter. It is only the idea that we are discussing here that matters. To me, there is nothing personal in this discussion. It is a very interesting discussion if we stick to the subject and leave personalities on the side.

If we add a right structure to take the stress of the human body, can we still call it a wing 'suit'? Or should we call it a hang glider?

It is a fact that wingsuits have hardly improved in L/D in relation to increase in area since the early 2000s. The best sink rate is still higher than 20mph these days, can that be lowered without a big increase in area? There isn't scope for a big increase in area compared to the biggest suits that are in the market without adding some kind of rigid extensions or a support structure.

Improving glide by using better built airfoils will require some kind of rigid material. Inflatable materials cannot offer the same ultra smooth wing surfaces.

Kris


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Giselle,

Even though I'm a huge noob here, I have one honest general advice for you - if you want to see things change, go do something about it, instead of screaming a lot at everyone.

I'm not going to completely dismiss you, hell, most awesome inventions were invented accidentally by crazy people so you never know really..

It's good to be open minded and you talk a lot about that, so open your mind please! Listen (just listen for a second) to some of the most revered people here and think (THINK!) about what they say, because you're not going to go far if you're gonna dismiss every single person that disagrees with you or your ideas.. (yeh I know, sounds ironic coming from me)

We all have our differences, but we also have one huge common thing - love for flight (whatever flight it may be), so just go out there and do your thing! You never know..

Honestly, best of luck to you, pursue your dream, but never completely push aside other people and their knowledge, it might help you one day. :)
"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

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