How many ws jumps before teaching others to fly?

[mccordia 73]

Such a shame that one person isnt mingling in this discussion, yet actively moderating these same threads in his own favor....

Its like that 'its winter...cold is upon us...wear gloves' thing all over again...Got to love moderators abusing their powers...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Zeemax 0]

Why do posts keep disappearing in this thread?!

Anyhow, JT, good of you post up in this thread. I personally feel you have nothing to defend in this matter, but it's good for you to be here.

A question for you, you say this has been in the making for 5 years? What's the military's take on wingsuit flying? What's the plan for it? Obviously, I imagine there's only so much you can say on the matter, but i'm genuinely curious.

WS had always been actively discredited as a feasible military option - so curious as to what the plan might be with it? Sure it's fun, but does it really have a real battle purpose?

I was under the impression that most military jumping was SL (correct me if i'm wrong), so how will students build up the required experience to fly WS - this is not another question about experience levels, i'm just interested how it will all fit in.

Could a civilian contractor (such as Scott, as I believe he's now retired?) have not provided the initial coaching while the program was established.

Again, absolutely no digs here, just interested, and please feel free to tell me to sod off

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[virgin-burner 1]

the posts keep disappearing because someone feels as if it was stepped onto his toes.. there's no critique on the powers to be! this aint your livingroom!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[cpoxon 0]

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the posts keep disappearing because someone feels as if it was stepped onto his toes.. there's no critique on the powers to be! this aint your livingroom!

I'm the one hiding the posts in this thread. My toes aren't stepped on. Posts are hidden if they break the rules.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[virgin-burner 1]

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the posts keep disappearing because someone feels as if it was stepped onto his toes.. there's no critique on the powers to be! this aint your livingroom!

I'm the one hiding the posts in this thread. My toes aren't stepped on. Posts are hidden if they break the rules.

riiiiiiight, that could be mine, but i dont think mccordia is known to be insulting..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[DSE 3]

while I understand the intent of the discussion, I'm not sure it has any lasting value.

There is a standard. Everyone knows this, ergo; a "standard."
It was disregarded. Every person in this discussion knows it was not the right thing, regardless of whatever justification.

It has occurred before and will happen again.

Compounding the issue is that the guy that got rated at 80 jumps then says to himself, "I got trained at 80, and I think it's OK to train others at 150 jumps instead of working their experience level to 200."

It's a ripple effect.

It's the same situation as what brought this conversation into place. In my opinion, greed and ego brought about bad decision making just like it did when Dan Kulpa (and a couple of others) died.

It's why the BSR was proposed. It's why manufacturers should be taken out of the training conversation.

At the end of the day, talking about standards just doesn't matter because there will always be a "somebody" that doesn't believe they should adhere. It's unfortunate that in this case the "somebody" is a highly respected person in the sport. Remember when an RD took a 12 year old kid on a tandem? This really isn't any different. It cost that RD his seat on the BOD.

"Excitabat enim fluctus in simpulo"

[copland007 0]

One thing I haven't seen pop up (forgive me if a previously unhidden post discussed this) is the currency of these jump numbers. It's one thing to have 200 WS jumps in a year, totally different to have them over 10 years. I think it's an important part to take into consideration.

I learned my lesson that jump numbers alone don't mean much when I jumped with an extended period jump number person (lucky to be here to talk about it).

As a new WS'er myself with less than 200 WS jumps I couldn't see myself instructing people at this point. I'm still learning my own suit and new techniques every day. Could I honestly say I could fly with a student and predict/react to their possibly wild ride... nope.

I'm sure there are people out there with awesome flying skills that fly well beyond what their jump number levels are (not pointing fingers). But I also agree as a general idea that a line in the sand minimum jump number is ideal as it sets a baseline for what the rating represents.

In the end a rule probably won't satisfy every possible angle, but should try and encompass and represent the best.

[mccordia 73]

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One thing I haven't seen pop up (forgive me if a previously unhidden post discussed this) is the currency of these jump numbers.

Currency is something that would show in the practical exam jumps linked to these type of exams. Though its definitely a valid point. But I think one that comes down to common sense in the examiners decisions..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[PhreeZone 15]

As I understand it the Air Force Academy is looking more to use Wingsuits on demos and things like that and not a real military purpose. They would need their own in-house instructors to train the candidates. There are already a lot of unique things that can occur with the military teams or Department of Defense sponsored groups then can happen in the civilian side. For example to do a stadium jump the FAA looks for a USPA Pro Rating for civilians, that requires 500 ram air jumps. DOD sponsored teams do not require any experience levels and frequently have jumpers with 150-200 jumps total making the same jumps that civilian teams would require 500 or 1000 jumps for insurance to make.

Here is another twist to the question, should expereince on suits like the Prodigy really count towards the jumps for an instructor rating? If someone does 90 Prodigy jumps and then a dozen jumps on a X-Wing does that play into anything or is a suit a suit for the consideration towards being an instructor?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[DSE 3]

I think a suit is a suit is a suit for purposes of instructional eligibility
Where it can get weird is that a student with say...20 WS jumps has virtually no experience on a particular suit. At 20 jumps, theyve' probably just gotten their first suit with little practical experience. A well-rounded instructor has experience on multiple suits and brands of suits, IMO.

[normiss 622]

I'm with Douglas on this one.
It's been overly clear to make any wingsuit jumps you need 200 jumps, and 20 winsuit jumps is nowhere near an instructor level of experience.
Given the option of a 20 wingsuit instructor or a REAL instructor with at least hundreds of jumps on various suits...I'm going with the "Instructor".
IMO.

[DSE 3]

I thought I was done commenting...

Keep in mind, this particular situation is brought about by military seeking training. As Phree explained above, the military is on their own program. USPA doesn't count, USPA rules don't matter, and apparently manufacturer requirements also don't matter.

With the financial backing of the US Military, that's probably OK.

[normiss 622]

I still say it's crazy..hence the "IMO" on my previous post.

I do understand the military's short cuts.
I've seen them and lived them.

[mccordia 73]

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Keep in mind, this particular situation is brought about by military seeking training.

That sounds like a firm reason for anyone to abandon the rules and safety requirements you would normaly claim to swear by.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[michalm21 0]

How many jumps? I say one - after you survive it, you are clearly a skygod and can move on to teaching others.
Also, make sure to equip your student with a camera so you get yourself on video.

[sdctlc 0]

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Keep in mind, this particular situation is brought about by military seeking training.

That sounds like a firm reason for anyone to abandon the rules and safety requirements you would normaly claim to swear by.

As I read it I don't think that JT did anything other then take a FFC for his added knowledge from DSE at MOAB. He also noted talking to Sean as well in addition to the BMI program from Scott.

In the other thread he noted hyis experience and that the military had asked him to develop a WS program for his students.. I don't think that the "rules" of USPA or any manufacturer would preclude the military from moving forward with the instructors they have for their program irregardless of what civilians think. They have their First jump students do solo freefall and will have cadets do stadium jumps with a jump number far lower then what a PRO rating would normally require. The military goes by their rules and not the outside worlds.

I commend JT and the others for actively looking for more knowledge and trying to implement a strong system as they have apparently been tasked to do. Again as I understand the military he did not need to reach out for the info to develop a program for the military. But if they are moving forward with a program it most certainly will be by military rules and not USPA or manufacturer rules...

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[DSE 3]

The biggest issue, IMO, is that Scott Campos, BMCI said " All three are located in the Colorado area and will also be available for FFCs at local DZ's. "

A lifelong electrician in the military still is only an apprentice in the "outside" world.
Once an instructor steps off the military reservation into the civilian world, the rules apply, don't they?

[edit] to reiterate, I think the way JT is going about this for the military is terrific, and support him and his program in every way. Short of handing him a PFC rating until he meets all requirements. He knows this, we discussed it prior to all this bruhaha.
Sucks that the AFA program is being dragged into a discussion of this sort. It would be so much easier if it were the civilian world.

[normiss 622]

Add to that the current status of BM in general...would a BMI hold any water - or "air" in the case of wingsuits?

[mccordia 73]

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As I read it I don't think that JT did

I dont think anybody is looking at this from JT's perspective with regardsto doing anything wrong. Its not about him..

I firmly believe (and have seen examples) that any other responsible examinor consistent in his practice would have gladly coached an under-experienced wingsuit flyer, wishing to become an instructor, through the 100 manditory jumps AND given him MORE experience and knowledge than the basic skydiver. Only after he or she had that experience in numbers and skills, have them added to the ranks of 'instructors'. Again, just like ANY other rating or instructional dicipline in skydiving that has minimum requirements.

And I know several capable wingsuit coach/instructor examinors from differing programs who had the same situation, yet they choose the consistency and safety. Its not a militairy specific training and licence that was taught, but a BMI course and title, that appearantly has differing standards if you have a certain job title.

Standards shouldnt varry...regardless of the experience.
It reminds me of the PF april fools joke....BMX or skateboarding experience is also concidered valid experience...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Buried 0]

sure one needs to know how to fly and hit upon some basic points during a FFC, but would you say there is a difference between an teaching and coaching [newer jumpers]? I'd say so.

In general i'd say less jump numbers are needed to train a new jumper compared to someone who is coaching by furthering an existing jumpers skills.
People still seek out FF coaches and pay the $ since it's usually worth it though now they just spend it in the tunnel.

.. but then again this is also skydiving so who says there are rules anyhow?

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?