FAI, Wingsuits, and the Grid

[The111 1]

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For clarity, I am speaking in my individual capacity only. And I realize I have alienated both camps in saying this. Boo fucking hoo. I'm spiffy with that result

I'm pretty sure I too have managed to alienate friends on both sides of the battle, with my refusal to take sides even though I kind of agree with certain points being made on BOTH sides.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Zeemax 0]

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I honestly couldn't care what system we ultimately use to judge things, but I do feel VERY strongly about a small group of people pushing something forward that doesn't have the majority support of those of us taking part in the sport.

Also, we are of course very vocal on this forum, and I know there is only a minority of actual participants who actively take part in discussions, but I ask again, why is no one from the grid based system making their points here?

OK - a question and a comment.

Question: HOW do you plan to evaluate that a proposal has majority support?

Comment: I have made a serious suggestion in another thread on this open and widely read forum for a different, quantitative and objective way of evaluating a 2-D wingsuit formation of any shape and design, I have given several examples, and asked for comments. So far only three people have made serious comments. Maybe the community really isn't interested.

I propose majority support by collecting actual feedback from those who take part in the sport, not just assuming that what is being done is what everyone want - especially when such a large number of people seem against it (and I don't just mean the vocal people).

To reply to your comment; perhaps people are now too scared to comment on ANY proposal for wingsuit record judging because they don't want to be seen to be in favour of one system over another. Or maybe, they just don't care.

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[LouDiamond 1]

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While I am sure everyone involved on all sides will claim to have good intentions be it for the sport, the world,etc, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and we are well on our way there if we as a community continue down this road with all the infighting, back stabbing, pettiness, hypocrisy and ego driven agendas.

It's just skydiving, it's supposed to be fun.

Agreed, it would be much more fun if everyone agreed on everything and there was peace on earth. Unfortunately, I don't think we'd get much done in that case, as we'd all agree on the first thing that came by and we'd still be bashing rocks on antilopes' heads to get our food.

In any case different people have different ideas on how to best solve a problem. Some of those people have worked very hard on their idea and feel very strongly that their idea is the best solution. In defending their idea people will do many of the things you listed. It's just human nature and I think it's part of the process and I don't think we're on the road to hell.

Costyn,
have you forgotten what business I am in? I am in no way suggesting that everyone agree on this and that we all need to be shiny happy people. What I am disgusted by and find utterly unacceptable is the way both groups, be it the whole group or members of that group, have digressed into the manner in which we have all witnessed.

There is a saying, "Perception is reality" and in the case of the USPA,FAI, the skydiving and wingsuiting community, that perception is not good at the moment due to the manner in which all involved have acted.

At the end of the day , we all want to be recognized as a discipline and for our accomplishments, but if the perception that is held of the wingsuiting community is that of little kids on the playground fighting over a toy, we have failed miserably. Until we as a community can discuss this issue, come to a true community agreed upon conclusion, conduct ourselves as adults and present it in the right way to the right people, we are allowing small groups of people to ruin it for everyone in the community.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[kallend 1,853]

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I honestly couldn't care what system we ultimately use to judge things, but I do feel VERY strongly about a small group of people pushing something forward that doesn't have the majority support of those of us taking part in the sport.

Also, we are of course very vocal on this forum, and I know there is only a minority of actual participants who actively take part in discussions, but I ask again, why is no one from the grid based system making their points here?

Comment: I have made a serious suggestion in another thread on this open and widely read forum for a different, quantitative and objective way of evaluating a 2-D wingsuit formation of any shape and design, I have given several examples, and asked for comments. So far only three people have made serious comments. Maybe the community really isn't interested.

To reply to your comment; perhaps people are now too scared to comment on ANY proposal for wingsuit record judging because they don't want to be seen to be in favour of one system over another. Or maybe, they just don't care.

Anyone can PM me their comments if they don't want to make them public.

And maybe they just don't care.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,853]

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Question: HOW do you plan to evaluate that a proposal has majority support?

By the one simple standard we should set: DOES IT WORK.
At the point where ANY system gives us a 100% failsafe result, in terms of YES/NO records.

That is not an indication of majority support. And first you need to define "Failsafe". Who gets to decide what THAT means?

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f you could do me a favour, and shoot me a brief explanation of your method, in 'dumb people language' so I can also show part of it as the FAI as one of the methods proposed/in development, you'd do me a great favourCool

The FAI is not composed of dumb people.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SuperGirl 0]

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I trust Justin's judgment.

Famous last words...





(just kidding! couldn't resist)

[MarkM 0]

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I'm pretty sure I too have managed to alienate friends on both sides of the battle, with my refusal to take sides even though I kind of agree with certain points being made on BOTH sides.

The entire "battle" long ago went from being about a system used to judging wingsuit records and instead is about ego's, personal grudges and screwing with people.

The truth is nobody outside of wingsuiting gives a fuck what system we use to measure records. The paper's don't care, they just hear "official record" and show up for a sound bite. And most non-wingsuiting skydivers don't understand crap about wingsuits and just like to see the pretty formations.

[mccordia 74]

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The FAI is not composed of dumb people.

No, but while you fiddle and play with your method, I have to find a way to explain 4 methods briefly within a 1 hour timeframe.
So a slightly compressed/brief explanation would be handy, depending on how well you want your concep explained.

Ill gladly do the brief write-up myself, but dont want to get shit afterward for explaining it wrong..
A simple PM would do just fine..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Buried 0]

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I'm pretty sure I too have managed to alienate friends on both sides of the battle, with my refusal to take sides even though I kind of agree with certain points being made on BOTH sides.

The entire "battle" long ago went from being about a system used to judging wingsuit records and instead is about ego's, personal grudges and screwing with people.

The truth is nobody outside of wingsuiting gives a fuck what system we use to measure records. The paper's don't care, they just hear "official record" and show up for a sound bite. And most non-wingsuiting skydivers don't understand crap about wingsuits and just like to see the pretty formations.

I agree with you Mark on all points.Some people, such as myself, have been able to keep the focus only about the judging system, while others have not and resort to slander.

I agree the general public doesn't care and they just hear the title. There are some wingsuiters care about this since it helps media exposure and they can turn it into something (whatever that may be). This sport isn't about that. Record standards are ours. May as well make it something hard strive for, something that we already hold ourselves up to. The current method does not do that.


discussion about judging is a discussion about judging. I'll jump with anyone and everyone [as long as they are safe]. I'll teach anyone... no matter that person's view point. No hard feelings. I've indicated that from the start.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[kallend 1,853]

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The FAI is not composed of dumb people.

No, but while you fiddle and play with your method, I have to find a way to explain 4 methods briefly within a 1 hour timeframe.
So a slightly compressed/brief explanation would be handy, depending on how well you want your concep explained.

Ill gladly do the brief write-up myself, but dont want to get shit afterward for explaining it wrong..
A simple PM would do just fine..

Would I give you shit??

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mccordia 74]

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discussion about judging is a discussion about judging. I'll jump with anyone and everyone [as long as they are safe]. I'll teach anyone... no matter that person's view point. No hard feelings. I've indicated that from the start.

The same here..
And who-ever may be in Swiss, if anyone is bringing rig. Join us for a potential chopper or airplane valley jump on Saterday!

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[tlcsdc 0]

Hello, I couldn’t pass up the opportunity to solve all your problems concerning grids and proximity software, diamond overlays, etc. The solution is simple... RFID chips. These chips act as transponders (transmitters/responders), always listening for a radio signal sent by transceivers, or RFID readers. When a transponder receives a certain radio query, it responds by transmitting its unique ID code, back to the transceiver. Most RFID tags are powered by the radio signal that wakes them up and requests an answer.

Most of these “broadcasts” are designed to be read between a few inches and several feet away. However, it is possible to increase that distance if you build a more sensitive RFID receiver.

RFID chips cost up to 50 cents.

These chips could be surgically inserted into the ego of all winguit participants, painted on their body when they pass-out in a drunken stupor, tatooed on their ass or sprinkled in their aura like fairy dust. When everyone is in their slot, the RDIF chips will light up like Skydiving Elvis, Utah Chapter. Fans on the ground can ooohh and awww at the magnificence of your success, toss tulips on the ground and blow kisses in the air when you land.

My project has the full support of Scott, Doug, Jeff, Justin, Kallend, Jarno etc., who, even though they’ve never heard of me, fully support my proposal. They all decided to go have a beer together before heading to the RDIF tatoo parlour last week, we'll find out when formation is complete exactly where the tatoos are located.

You may ask, how can I possibly give this idea so freely? I just felt it imperative to give back to the skydiving community which has given so much to me ... an overgrown egomaniac whom I occasionally bump into in the kitchen between formation loads.

My job here is done, your problems are solved. ~ case o’ beer!

PS... Hi Veggie!!! ; )

[mjosparky 4]

Disclaimer: I no longer actively jump and have only made one wingsuit jump. With that said,

I have a few friends in the wingsuit community and have been following with great interest the progression of WS large formations. As a jumper my passion was big way RW. I was at Ellsinore for the recent 68 way flock and listened in on some the discussions about judging. While I did not understand everything I heard it was clear that there were several opinions on how the judging should be done.

My question is what is the rush to have a judging system sanctioned by a Governing body, USPA or FAI? It sounds like the USPA system was rushed through and may have problems, I don’t claim to know one way or the other, most of which relate to repeatability. It also sounds like there are at a couple of other system on the horizon that might justify consideration. I would suggest that everyone back off a step or two and come back together as a group rather than a gaggle. Establish an impartial panel or board of 5 to 7 people. Charge them with developing selection criteria a judging system must meet. Give them one year or 18 months to evaluate the top 2 or 3 systems, preferably side by side, at boogies and other large events. With input from the panel the various systems could use this time for further development and refinement. This is just one man’s idea but maybe it can be used to build on.

It has been my experience that anytime you rush in skydiving you are asking for trouble. Except for old school 10 man.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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61ST FAI / IPC PLENARY MEETING, LAUSANNE, SWITZERLAND – 30TH - 31ST JANUARY 2010
Subject: PROPOSAL FOR JUDGING WINGSUIT BIG FORMATIONS Annex No. - 44
Author(s): Ronald Overdijk, IPC Delegate, The Netherlands Agenda ref. - 16.5
Date: 13 November 2009 Page 1 of 6
KNVvL department of parachuting
Proposal for judging wingsuit big formations


The KNVvL would like to propose to accept the following document for wingsuit judging.
KNVvL stresses this document is designed by Dutch skydivers but has been put together
based on international input. It furthermore stresses that wingsuit (judging) is still in its
infancy and that no final decision about judging should be made. This is clearly stated in the
mentioned test-fase in the plan. KNVvL does believe however this document is the best up
till now.


Introduction
At present, wing-suit flying is not an official IPC parachuting discipline. However, more and
more parachutists are jumping with wing-suits. There has been a presentation to the IPC at
their meeting in Paris, 2008. This presentation focused on formation skydiving with wingsuits
in sequential manner. There have been several international competitions based on this
format.
Furthermore, in the recent past there have been several "largest slot-perfect wingsuit
formation" events. The qualification of these formations were based on non-official rules. As
a result debriefing and judging of wing-suit formations has been the subject of great debate
over the years. With wing-suits not taking grips in formations as parachutists in other
skydiving disciplines do, there is a lot of room for this debate. One parachuting federation,
USPA, has adopted the so-called "grid system." We feel however that there are too many
subjective and unclear aspects to this system which may actually harm the credibility of
wing-suit records as perceived by the worldwide skydiving community. Further, the "grid
system" applies skydivers to the rule as opposed to applying the rule to skydivers. We
believe we have a better, more objective alternative which offers consistent, repeatable
results regardless of the person(s) responsible for judging. Browsing through discussions
found on the Internet and sharing ideas with many of the big minds in the sport, we set
upon a goal to create a quick, easy to use, accurate system for both judging and debriefing
jumps.


Many people with broad backgrounds in various skydiving disciplines have given input into
this project, and it didn't take long for a framework of goals to be formed.
What we wanted to create is a simple software application everyone can use for briefing,
debriefing, and judging wing-suit formations.
Regardless of the organizer, whether for debriefing or judging, consistent and demonstrable
results should be achieved in minutes.


61ST FAI / IPC PLENARY MEETING, LAUSANNE, SWITZERLAND – 30TH - 31ST JANUARY 2010
Subject: PROPOSAL FOR JUDGING WINGSUIT BIG FORMATIONS Annex No. - 44
Author(s): Ronald Overdijk, IPC Delegate, The Netherlands Agenda ref. - 16.5
Date: 13 November 2009 Page 2 of 6


Some the most common requested improvements over other methods:
· No need for hours of puzzling/rotating as is the case with current judging methods.
· Results not differing or being dependent on who judges the skydive, thus removing
the human factor and assuring consistent judging criteria.
· Within 5 to 10 minutes after loading a photograph, have a clear and repeatable result
with regards to a wing-suit formation. (Formation judging may be uploaded to the
web, emailed to a ratifying organization, and archived for access the world over.
NOTE: this differs from the current IPC ruling for judging records)
· wing-suit parachutists having a maximum AND minimum distance they are allowed to
move away from their slot.
· Relative spacing. This means no cumulative error, where distances adding up
throughout the formation puts parachutists out of their allowed space (even though
the formation is perfect).
· There should be no doubt with regards to the success of the formation.
· A clear way to identify which parachutists are within/outside the set distance limits,
i.e. not in their slot.
· Adaptable, and up to a small level allows for breathing, expansion and asymmetry in
a formation.

How this may be achieved:
· Within the software, a dive plan is made before the jumps, with all parachutists
placed in their designated positions within the formation. The application provides the
option to specify name and color of each parachutist visible using wing-suit
pictograms.
· After the jump, a video-frame still (HD or SD) is loaded into the software, and the
formation is moved in place over the actual background photo, with dots on the head
of the body, as a fixed point of position.
· Lines are drawn between all parachutists in a 45° degree angle diamond or a 90°
degree angle square pattern (depending on the formation flown).
· The average distance flown by the two parachutists next to the base sets the
distance people should fly throughout the formation. These are denoted as BLUE
lines.
· This distance is used to judge distance between all parachutist in the formation. Each
parachutist is measured referencing the parachutist(s) in front of him as their point of
reference/origin.
· All parachutists have an acceptable % tolerance in terms of distance (room for
movement) from their reference parachutist(s).
· All parachutists have an acceptable % tolerance in terms of the angle (45° or 90°
degrees) they must fly relative to the parachutist(s) in front of them.
· These two combined restrictions, give each parachutist a certain 'flight zone' relative
to the parachutists in front of him. This allows for "breathing"
right/left/forward/backward without impacting other portions of the formation.
· This means parachutists can not be too far away from their assigned position, but
also prevents them from getting too close. This is indicated by overlapping circles in
the "flight zone" tolerances.
· Parachutists outside of their 'flight zone' are indicated by a RED line in the
application, indicating where the error was made.


61ST FAI / IPC PLENARY MEETING, LAUSANNE, SWITZERLAND – 30TH - 31ST JANUARY 2010
Subject: PROPOSAL FOR JUDGING WINGSUIT BIG FORMATIONS Annex No. - 44
Author(s): Ronald Overdijk, IPC Delegate, The Netherlands Agenda ref. - 16.5
Date: 13 November 2009 Page 3 of 6


Benefits and advantages of a software based system accessible to all wing-suit
parachutists using a Windows-based computer:
· Objective and instant results after matching markers to the photo, regardless of
formation size.
· Still photo or SD/HD video frame-grab may be used for judging.
· The framework allows for some minor asymmetry due to stingers/lines slightly
curving away, but never to the point where it pulls a formation apart.
· Parachutists can never get too close to each other, or even go as far as being on top
of each other or almost switching slots and still be considered 'in slot/in formation',
as this will be indicated by lines and the "flight zones" as defined by the tolerance
measurements.
· 100% objective results (where everybody gets the same result, regardless of who is
doing the judging when or where)
· In case of a not-complete formation, a percentage value as to the completion of the
formation is calculated by the software (i.e. 82% complete)
· When briefing and debriefing the jump, the software provides immediate feedback
when the overlay is compared to the still image/video frame-grab.
Plan
· This method should be in a trial phase for at least a year, to see if the method also
holds up to everyday use. This also allows time and opportunity for commentary from
the wing-suit community and application improvements.
· Accept and incorporate feedback from other wing-suit parachutists who are
interested in improving the methodology and software application. We feel strongly
that a wing-suit judging system should not be thrust upon the wing-suit community,
but rather a joint effort with input from all whom will be affected by such a judging
system.


Software Requirements
· Windows XP, Vista or 7.
· .NET Framework 3.5.
· 256MB memory.


61ST FAI / IPC PLENARY MEETING, LAUSANNE, SWITZERLAND – 30TH - 31ST JANUARY 2010
Subject: PROPOSAL FOR JUDGING WINGSUIT BIG FORMATIONS Annex No. - 44
Author(s): Ronald Overdijk, IPC Delegate, The Netherlands Agenda ref. - 16.5
Date: 13 November 2009 Page 4 of 6


Project History
Based upon discussions and ideas coming from the wing-suit community this judging
method was developed by:
Costyn van Dongen - NED - wing-suit instructor, coach and load organiser, organiser of
the Int. Artistic Wingsuit Competition 2008 & 2009, creator of the (Online) Paralog
Performance Competition.

Jarno Cordia - NED - wing-suit instructor, coach and load organiser, organiser of the Int.
Artistic Wingsuit Competition 2008 & 2009, creator of the (Online) Paralog Performance
Competition, creator of multiple articles and instuctional videos on wingsuit flight.

Tom van Dijck – NED / USA - Skydiver and Technical Director at Electronic Arts Canada.
The software was implemented by: Tom van Dijck

With additional input and support from the following people:
Douglas Spotted Eagle - USA - wing-suit instructor, coach and load organiser, creator of
several commercially available (wingsuit) instruction DVDs, and partner in VASST Software

Ronald Overdijk - NED - Secretary Parachuting Federation The Netherlands, IPC Delegate,
Chair IPC subcommittee Artistic Events

Henny Wiggers - NED - wingsuit instructor, co-creator of the 1st Birdman instruction
manual, IPC Alternate Delegate, Member IPC subcommittees CF, PS and adviser for CP

Stephane "Zun" Zunino - FRA - FlyYourBody wingsuit inventor and constructor, instructor,
coach and load organiser

Kathy Jean Albert - FRA - wingsuit instructor, coach and load organiser

James Boole – GBR / ITA - wingsuit instructor, coach and load organiser

Klaus Rheinwald - GER - wingsuit flyer, Creator of Paralog, organiser of the (Online)
'Paralog Performance Competition', chief judge 'Wings over Gransee' and 'Wings over Marl'

Steve Bartels - RSA - wingsuit instructor, coach and load organiser

Christian "Skyjester" Stadtler – GER - wingsuit instructor, organiser of 'Wings over Marl'
performance competition.

Hans Schoeber – NED - wingsuit instructor, load organiser, chief judge Stupino Wingsuit
Competition 2007 & Int. Artistic Wingsuit Competition 2008

James "Macca" McDonald – GBR - wingsuit instructor, coach and load organiser

Scotty Burns - USA - professional wingsuit cameraman

Patrick deGuillebon - FRA - wingsuit instructor, coach and load organiser

Scott Bland - USA - wingsuit instructor, coach and load organiser

Scott Callantine - USA - wingsuit instructor, coach and load organiser

Robert Pecnik - CRO - Phoenix-Fly wingsuit inventor and constructor, instructor and coach

Juan Mayer - ARG - wingsuit instructor, coach and load organiser

61ST FAI / IPC PLENARY MEETING, LAUSANNE, SWITZERLAND – 30TH - 31ST JANUARY 2010
Subject: PROPOSAL FOR JUDGING WINGSUIT BIG FORMATIONS Annex No. - 44
Author(s): Ronald Overdijk, IPC Delegate, The Netherlands Agenda ref. - 16.5
Date: 13 November 2009 Page 5 of 6

a ‘perfect’ formation. All lines black, showing parachutists within the allowed tolerance for
maximum and minimum distance. The green boxes show the allowed flying distance, relative to
adjacent wingsuit parachutists.
A formation flown with several parachutists outside of the allowed tolerance levels for
maximum and minimum distance. The green boxes show the allowed flying distance, with
several flyers being outside of those allowed distances. Their connecting lines show up red,
clearly showing the parachutists who are not regarded as ‘in their slot’.


61ST FAI / IPC PLENARY MEETING, LAUSANNE, SWITZERLAND – 30TH - 31ST JANUARY 2010
Subject: PROPOSAL FOR JUDGING WINGSUIT BIG FORMATIONS Annex No. - 44
Author(s): Ronald Overdijk, IPC Delegate, The Netherlands Agenda ref. - 16.5
Date: 13 November 2009 Page 6 of 6

I have been very busy doing "real job" stuff lately and have not kept up with this topic. But, this particular proposal seems very-heavilly supported and well thought out. As, primarilly, a trainer I have refrained from throwing my hat in with either side of this debate. That said, I am particularly saddened by the fact that this letter writing campaign has degenerated into a few notable (yet few in number) wingsuit organizers all throwing each other under the bus. That's too bad. I am particulary offended by the off-hand comments in one of the letters saying that the authors of the "other" letter are un-qualified to voice their opinion because they did not participate in the past two "record" jumps. I didin't make either of those jumps either due to monetary and work restraints and obligations. Does that disqualify ME from having an opinion on this?

Chuck Blue, D-12501
Founder: Z-Flock Wingsuit School and DragonFly Wingsuit School

[sebastian5 0]

In case any of you wingsuiters cares what the outsiders think, (non wingsuiters) I think I might be able to summarize the thoughts.

Yes, we think the grid is a joke. So much so that I watched a few people participate in the world record backsliding record a few weeks ago and making fun of it.

Here's the facts....

It takes a tremendous amount of experience to be a part of a world record these days whether it be belly or freefly. Most participants had over 1000 jumps freeflying on the 108 way head down. Some of them cut the corner on jumps by doing a bunch of tunnel . This goes to show it takes a lot of experience to fly well enough to participate in this kind of accomplishment.
By doing a grid record that a jumper with 7 wingsuit jumps can participate in shows how easy it is.

You want recognition and respect, do it docked, it's that simple. Some say you can't do anything but a line docked, those have no imagination. Imagine a diamond that has holes in it. I'm not going to take the time to draw this out, but it's very doable. Yes, it's hard. Yes, it takes some good flying.

The first freefly record was 24 and it took the better part of a decade before this was accomplished. There were many jumpers freeflying when this happened, way more than there are wingsuiters now. So your first docked formation will not be a high number. If you are lucky to get get more than a dozen, I think that's a great accomplishment. But to build a record to get a high number because it's so easy, it's just not that impressive (IMO)

[Costyn 1]

Hi Sebastian,

Thanks for your thoughts. I totally agree with you that "it should be hard". I don't know when we're going to see docked formations, but until that time, as a wingsuit community we're going to be flying undocked formations and wanting to evaluate their quality.

I also completely agree with you that someone with only a few wingsuit jumps should not be able to join a record attempt. The issue is that you can assign a slot which is fairly easy to a newby and they can contribute to the formation. Are there slots like this in RW and FF?

Not to say that putting a better person there wouldn't improve the formation. What I've often seen is that putting a newby up front in the easy slot will make it harder for the people behind him/her because they tend to weave left/right & up/down. If you put them in the back, they have trouble flying their slot because it's just a harder place to be and figure out where you are supposed to be. During the 2008 Elsinore event, I was way in the back of one of the tails and I was having a pretty challenging time with flying my slot (even though I had 500+ wingsuit jumps). So in wingsuit formations there are easy places and hard places, but it definitely makes it easier for the people in the back if there are skilled people up front: which is why I'd say not to put newbys in formations bigger than 10 people if you want it to look good.

Anyways, just some thoughts...

Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

[JohanW 0]

I do not agree with making it hard for the sake of making it hard. I want the rules to validate pretty pictures, objectivised and objectively. The pretty formations may be hard to fly, but they must not be. In practice, it will be hard, but again, I have no problem with that.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[JohanW 0]

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I also completely agree with you that someone with only a few wingsuit jumps should not be able to join a record attempt. The issue is that you can assign a slot which is fairly easy to a newbie and they can contribute to the formation. Are there slots like this in RW and FF?

Attached a picture of a slot in the base of a 400-way that would be flyable for someone with not a whole lot of jumps. Yes, experience would help actually flying that slot. But someone with rather few belly jumps could easily pull it off, and it would not invalidate the formation as a whole, would it?

Johan.
I am. I think.

[antonija 0]

I somehow get a feeling that this wingsuit judging criteria is being forced too early. Like Sebastian said other disciplines took decades of practise before record formations were attempted. It could very well be the case that wingsuiters in general have mad skillz and years of practise are not needed in this case, but just for the sake of continuity lets stick with more classical approach to skydiving record formations.

However that does not exclude judging criteria for non-docked formations, it's just that the ones that are proposed now are kinda weird... They seem to be there just to justify current "records" (they are big achievements but not official record IMO) and not to allow wingsuiting to become equivalent to other skydiving disciplines.

It might be line of 6 docked today and group of 20 in few years, but like it is said many times on this forum: this is not a race and you don't have to be world champion by the time you're 20 (or is that just babel to keep us n00bs safer?).

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[kallend 1,853]

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I somehow get a feeling that this wingsuit judging criteria is being forced too early. Like Sebastian said other disciplines took decades of practise before record formations were attempted..

No, that simply is not true. A look at the history of RW records showed that they started to be set in the 1960s very soon after people started doing RW at all. They didn't start with the 300-way!

Requiring wingsuit records to be flown with grips is a classic example of thinking INSIDE the box. It fails to recognize that flying is not the same as falling.

Anyone is welcome to fly docked formations and claim a record for doing so. That in no way invalidates unlinked formation flying, though.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[MarkM 0]

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It takes a tremendous amount of experience to be a part of a world record these days whether it be belly or freefly.

Yeah, "these days". Freeflying has been around for a couple decades, RW even longer. Time was putting 50 freeflyers in the same airspace at once without anyone getting killed itself was a big deal which is where wingsuit has been and is starting to evolve from.

Freeflying saw a lot of evolution which included false starts and dead ends. Anyone remember the AD licenses? Wingsuiting will be the same.

FF went VRW which is great for that discipline but docks just aren't practical for wingsuits and frankly would send the discipline in the wrong direction, towards smaller suits that are easier to control.

Frankly the records right now are easy because there's no existing records to beat. That requires standards. We were doing 50-60 ways years back at the flock and docks but it didn't mean squat because there was no rule to apply to the formation to determine whether or not it was crap.

[kallend 1,853]

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I also completely agree with you that someone with only a few wingsuit jumps should not be able to join a record attempt. The issue is that you can assign a slot which is fairly easy to a newbie and they can contribute to the formation. Are there slots like this in RW and FF?

Attached a picture of a slot in the base of a 400-way that would be flyable for someone with not a whole lot of jumps. Yes, experience would help actually flying that slot. But someone with rather few belly jumps could easily pull it off, and it would not invalidate the formation as a whole, would it?

There were some very low time jumpers on the 246 way world record. Not every slot on a bigway requires heroic skills.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[The111 1]

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Freeflying saw a lot of evolution which included false starts and dead ends. Anyone remember the AD licenses? Wingsuiting will be the same.

Very prescient thing to say.

I had a big party at my house the other night and a lot of skydivers came, mostly not wingsuit flyers, although one of them (who was on the 108 FF record) does fly a WS sometimes and enjoys it. They all think the grid is silly... and interestingly enough that conversation led into discussion of the long lost Atmospheric Dolphin as well. LOL.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Communications 0]

Here is a letter from Marylou Laughlin, US Delegate to the IPC and Bill Wenger, Chair of the Competition Committee regarding the IPC meeting and wingsuit records. http://skydiveuspa.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/dear-wingsuit-community/

www.uspa.org

Read the USPA blog!

[LouDiamond 1]

From the USPA Link:


Dear Wingsuit Community
By Bill Wenger


We would like to start by thanking you for all of your emails. The one thing that is obvious is the wingsuit community is passionate about their discipline. Based on the current controversy over the grid system that USPA adopted last year to judge wingsuit large formation records and the additional different suggestions and input that USPA has received the US will NOT recommend the grid system to the IPC this week. The US must have a wingsuit large formation record judging system that is tested and proven that it is accepted by the majority of the wingsuit community prior to proposing it to the international community at the IPC meeting. Based on the current situation the following is the course of action that the US will take at the upcoming IPC meeting.

The US and the Netherlands will have a meeting, prior to the start of the IPC Meetings, to discuss and share all ideas for judging wingsuit large formation records including modifications to the grid system. The US will carry all of the suggestions that have been received in the emails from the wingsuit community to the meeting. The knowledge gathered at the joint US and Netherlands meeting will be documented and reported to the IPC. Any presentation made to the IPC, if it is decided to still make one, will be strictly informational as to USPA’s experience with its current system making it clear that the system is still controversial within the wingsuit community.

The results from the IPC meeting will also be reported back to the wingsuit community and used as a starting point on determining how USPA will proceed both nationally and internationally making sure we have adequate input from all sectors of the wingsuit community.

Please understand the only changes being discussed are how best to move forward from where we are now. The current record that was set last Fall in Lake Elsinore was built according to the current USPA rules and stands as the US National Record. This was an impressive formation and there are no plans now, or has there been any discussion or consideration to changing the existing record.

In the dozens of passionate emails that have been received in the last week there is one point everyone seems to agree on, that changes need to be made. Whether these are changes to the existing system or starting over from scratch is something that will be determined over the next months or maybe even years with input from all sectors of the wingsuit community.

The USPA BOD will be meeting in Phoenix AZ on February 19-21 and wingsuit judging is an item on the Competition Committee. We have already received several ideas for improvement of the current system and suggestions for a new one. If you have ideas please send them to us and we will consider them.

We hope this alleviates the concern that community has regarding all the current judging system proposals. We ask the entire wingsuit community to please join together to develop a “united” wingsuit judging system. You are the experts and we need your help. Thank you again for your input. And thank you in advance for your help.

Best Regards,

Marylou Laughlin, US Delegate to the IPC and Bill Wenger, Chair of the Competition Committee

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