CanuckInUSA 0 #1 November 10, 2003 Lately I've been wondering what is the most dangerous aspect of myself swooping like a bad ass. Canopy type and wingloading always seem to come to the forefront of the dangerous aspects of swooping. But to tell you the truth, I'm less afraid of making a low turn (I use an altimeter attached to my right leg strap and have hard deck altitudes in which to proceed or abort the swoop) and I am more afraid of dropping a toggle and/or getting my fingers stuck in my dive loops while close to the ground. So ... I am thinking that maybe I should be using dive blocks instead of dive loops and eliminate 2 of the 3 things that could cause me to screw up. Can risers be purchased with dive blocks or is this something that a rigger will do after the fact? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dterrick 0 #2 November 10, 2003 Well, Steve, besides the 'badass swooper remark...' (as otherwise mentioned)... We have a fairly prominent Coach in Canada that likes to refer to said loops as "Die Loops" - as in if your hand gets caught and you wind up in the corner then you'll likely die - or get severely bent in the process. I know there are various toggle 'techniques' and some canopies that have ultra light toggle pressure can lull people into using a '2 fingered aproach'. I wouldn't (and don't) as my Raven is so heavy and ham-fisted that it would't work anyway. I am practising the correct techniques but I'm certainly not "swooping" an old 7 cell at 1:1. Yes, I'd read up on the 'dropped toggle threads' and the 'caught in the dive loops threads' and avoid both those scenarios if I were you. Hey, in a few hundred jumps I might be there too. But badass? ... it's gonna be a long while since I like my body in one piece (and the only swoop 'ponds' we have are a sewage lagoon and the resevoir for the CL-215 water bombers - surrounded by an 8 foot chain link fence ) Mini risers? Donno what you'd sew on but on the regular risers a copule of steel washers of apropriate diameter covered in another layer of type 8 material makes for an effective stiffener. Dave Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #3 November 10, 2003 I only know one person who has biffed in because of his hand getting caught in a dive loop. Nope, that's not right. He biffed in because he was learning to do rear riser landings and mistakenly grabbed one front and one rear riser simultaneously. I don't know anyone personally outside of the CRW community who uses dive blocks for their front risers. Does that mean there are not any? Nope, but you know how many people I know, Steve, so you get the picture. Dropping a toggle during transition is more likely. That can be easily avoided by making sure at least one finger stays holding your toggle while the rest of them are diving with the loop. My toggles are fully over my palm and my pinkie finger holds them in place as I dive with my other three fingers. When I transition to rears, I grab them with those same three fingers and my thumb, while the pinkie ensures that I don't drop a toggle. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #4 November 10, 2003 Thanks for the info ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #5 November 10, 2003 A lot of the swoopers are putting their hands through their toggles to the wrist (will prevent toggle drops). Of course now you're attached to your canopy so cutting away low for whatever reason, just got a lot more complicated. I'm not sure I like it, and will stick to the 2 or 3 finger dive loop approach for now. As for the topic of what kills - I'd guess complacency. The more we do something, the more comfortable we get, and just as we get super comfy, a big hand from the sky squishes us into the dirt. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #6 November 10, 2003 I'm with SkymonkeyONE. I only know of one person that has hammered because of dive loops and it was because they were incorrectly manufactured (retrofitted by handtacking). Not to say it can't happen, but it almost doesn't happen. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #7 November 10, 2003 QuoteI'm with SkymonkeyONE. I only know of one person that has hammered because of dive loops and it was because they were incorrectly manufactured (retrofitted by handtacking). Not to say it can't happen, but it almost doesn't happen. I've got to argue this one... I know of three people who very nearly hammered in because of dive loops in the past 2 years. In fact, the only reason one of them is still walking is because he landed smack in the middle of the pea pit. All three were on Javs, and all three were in the winter when the jumpers were wearing gloves thicker than normal. I think the main problem was that they were used to getting three or four fingers in the loops, when they could now only comfortably fit in two (because of the gloves). I retrofitted all their risers with slightly larger loops, and the problem was solved...but it does show that loops can be a potential problem, especially if you change some other aspect of your gear (like thicker gloves). I think the main problem with using blocks is that they require much more hand strength to use, because you can't "hang" your hand in them and put your body weight against it like you can with a loop. Plus, you're much more likely to slip off a block than out of a loop (one of their advantages...you can more easily slip free from blocks than loops ). I have blocks on my CReW stuff, and they're great for quick action, but they certainly do wear on you harder than loops do... Which is better? No idea.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #8 November 10, 2003 Quoteand all were in the winter when the jumpers were wearing gloves thicker than normal. Thanks for your two cents. I think you hit the nail right on the spot for why I'm asking these questions to begin with. The colder weather is upon many of us now and we are starting to wear gloves where we didn't need them this summer. I did wear gloves last winter, but my landings are much faster now than they were last year and I find myself thinking about the gear I use and more importantly how it is being used. If I can take anything away from this thread is that dive loops (while not fool proof), are still an excepted component of our gear. And I need to be more diligent with my swoops this winter season to ensure that my clothing and/or technique don't get me into trouble. Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #9 November 11, 2003 Ok, lets get opinions on the preferred style of dive loops. Loops on back, loops on front so you are actually grabbing your riser and the loop keeps you hand in place, loops on the back that make a 90 degree turn to help keep them open, and all of the other options. One customer who doesn't do high speed swoops but lands his sabre out of at least a 180 most of the time swears by 1 1/2 or 2 inch rings welded steel ring threaded on his steel links. They work like dive blocks. I don't like them much but it illustrates the range of things used. What's your favorite? Material, stitch pattern, placement. (I know what I like.)I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicrussell 0 #10 November 11, 2003 QuoteA lot of the swoopers are putting their hands through their toggles to the wrist (will prevent toggle drops). Of course now you're attached to your canopy so cutting away low for whatever reason, just got a lot more complicated. I'm not sure I like it, and will stick to the 2 or 3 finger dive loop approach for now. As for the topic of what kills - I'd guess complacency. The more we do something, the more comfortable we get, and just as we get super comfy, a big hand from the sky squishes us into the dirt. Blue skies Ian Putting your toggles all the way over your hand can lead to a loss of control. It seems to me that if the toggle is being held with four fingers and your thumb wrapped around the outside (securing it in place) you can let go in an emergency and keep it in place. Then with the dive loop use your index and middle fingers so its a strong grip but not a lot of flesh to get stuck if that is your worry. my 2 pence nic Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #11 November 11, 2003 I said that I didn't like the technique and used the "normal" 2 or 3 finger approach with the toggle in my hand. I was commenting on the pro swoopers who are now using the toggle on the wrist technique. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spy38W 0 #12 November 11, 2003 QuoteI said that I didn't like the technique and used the "normal" 2 or 3 finger approach with the toggle in my hand. I was commenting on the pro swoopers who are now using the toggle on the wrist technique. QuoteA lot of the swoopers are putting their hands through their toggles to the wrist (will prevent toggle drops). Of course now you're attached to your canopy so cutting away low for whatever reason, just got a lot more complicated. Any reasons beyond the low cutaway scenario that you don't like the method? I grabbed a spare set of risers/toggles and hooked them up to my inversion rack out of curiosity and was planning on trying it next time I jump. I've dropped a toggle once, after wondering how people did such a thing, thinking it wasn't possible my way. Luckily it was on an FX @ 1.9 and it happened high enough for me to recover without incident -- Hook high, flare on time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #13 November 11, 2003 besides the low cutaway? No reasons I can think of. In fact if traffic wasn't a concern I'd probably be doing it. I try and do all the techniques I can to keep my toggles in my hand, but I've had one slip before and I tell ya....it scared the crap outta me. I can only imagine being a little too deep in the corner, having to bail to toggles and dropping one....it's not a scenario I wish to find myself in. I think if I was doing a lot of hop and pops practising swooping I'd use the toggle over the wrist technique if I was the only one in the air. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #14 November 11, 2003 I'd think you wouldn't be able to get the slider past dive blocks? I have blocks on my crw rig and I really like em. Thought about adding them to my spectre too because I use that canopy for filming crw sometimes and the blocks are easy to grab without looking. But then my slider would have to stay up... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #15 November 11, 2003 I hear you. I thought long and hard before going to front riser turns, and PM'd SkymonkeyOne and Hookitt to nail down as bullet proof a system as I could manage. As an old CReW dog, blocks made sense, but I copied SM1's toggle techniques and practiced transisions for maybe 50 dives before I started riser swoops after 3000 plus toggle spanks. (I'm a slow learner, OK?) I only use 2 fingers in the loops. I climb quite a bit, and on the Stiletto, and 270 hooks, I'm not getting anywhere near where I would need more power to hold the riser down. So, to sum up. Loops, 2 fingers in loops, 2 fingers in toggles... I'll let you know when I screw up... (Or someone else will!) tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmac324 0 #16 November 11, 2003 I have dive blocks on my javelin, They are just dive loops that have been folded up on themselves and stitched down. I personally don't like playing about trying to get my hand into a loop, and have never had a problem hanging onto the block or pulling my slider over them. Graeme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #17 November 11, 2003 hear, hear...I also have had the dive blocks on all my kit, and I have no problem hanging off them for minutes at a time. And ya gotta love being able to just unclasp your hand to release them...And no problems getting the slider down either...--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #18 November 11, 2003 Gmac and meatbomb, The problem with dive blocks is not hanging onto them, its that you have to use your whole hand to pull them down and that SIGNIFICANTLY increases the risk of dropping a toggle on landing. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #19 November 11, 2003 Call me all the names under the sun, but I don't see how it follows that using your whole hand increases the chance of dropping the toggle? Maybe I've just got big hands, and small toggles...--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #20 November 11, 2003 First of all - I wasn't calling you names - I refered to your and another posters screen name. 2nd it's quite simple. To grab a dive block you need to open your WHOLE hand and to release it your need to open your WHOLE hand. This means it's quite easy to drop a toggle. With dive loops, assume you're not using your more than your 2 or 3 fiunger approach your have the toggle secured with at LEAST one finger. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #21 November 11, 2003 Sorry, I didn't mean you were calling me names...I was referring to the fact I was probably being stoopid in not thinking of the reason...and you answered it perfectly, I can't see it as a problem because my toggles fit perfectly on my hands, and ain't coming off 'til I tell them to...opening or closing my hand makes no difference cos the toggles are over my palms...Does that make sense?--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #22 November 11, 2003 roger that - sorry for the misunderstanding. Yep what you say makes sense. I think I'd still exercise caution when using the technique you described though. God, if your hands are that big, just how damned big are you? Blues skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #23 November 11, 2003 Big enough to surf 100'-150' on a Sabre 190 from a 90 front riser carve (on a nil wind day )--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #24 November 11, 2003 QuoteTo grab a dive block you need to open your WHOLE hand and to release it your need to open your WHOLE hand. This means it's quite easy to drop a toggle. I don't understand the whole dropped toggle thing. I use both blocks and toggles all the time and I've never dropped either inadvertently. I put four fingers through the toggle loop and just grab the block. When I let go of the block, it releases and my hand is still in the toggle. What am I missing? Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #25 November 11, 2003 Would you describe how you grab the block in detail please? Are you making a fist around the dive block? If so think about the motion your hand goes through when closing around and releasing the riser. There is a period where your hand is not gripping the toggle and it's held in place by the pressure on your hand, yes it's resting on your hand, but it's quite easy to lose it (believe it or not) at the worst possible time. Up high this is no biggie but low it can, and has been, fatal. I'm sure SkymonkeyOne or HooknSwoop could explain this a little better than I, but that's the best I can do Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
