Tonto 1 #1 August 29, 2006 The handles being sucked in is pretty much a monowing problem. Any suit using the Roberts cutaway system - particularly if that suit was owned by the jumper and had been fitted to his rig many times in the past - makes this scenario unlikely. Do we know which suit this jumper was wearing? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #2 August 29, 2006 Do we know whether the jumper's wings became entangled with the main canopy or risers in any way? There was an incident in Europe whereby a jumper managed to front loop through his risers on deployment, becoming hung-up on his risers. Cutting the wings away was impossible because the subsequent restriction made it impossible for him to reach his wing cut-away handles. He did eventually manage to get his main cut-away and reserve handles and deploy successfully, but it looked rather exciting (particularly given that he only had a 12s canopy ride under his reserve...)-- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BGill 0 #3 August 29, 2006 QuoteDo we know which suit this jumper was wearing? I believe it was an S3. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tinacross 0 #4 August 29, 2006 why don't you guys wait until the investigation is finished. The FAA has Mike's gear and they've contacted an independant rigger to verify what they found at Orange. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 186 #5 August 29, 2006 Quotewhy don't you guys wait until the investigation is finished. The FAA has Mike's gear and they've contacted an independant rigger to verify what they found at Orange. The reason why we do not wait is that the results of the investigation are incidental to the purpose of this thread. If I hear something that helps keep me from dying at some time in the future, I do not think I will begrudge the information if it turns out to have had little to do with this incident in particular. The official investigation is all well and good. The information contained in the Official Report (assuming it ever gets disseminated) will likely be quite useful. However, the fact that Trained Professionals (tm) are on the case does not by any means suggest that there is nothing to be gained by discussion of potential failure mechanisms that can lead to similar outcomes. If you want to wait for the Official Report, knock yourself out. I doubt if it will serve my purpose as well as will the insight provided by the unfounded speculation found here. BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #6 August 29, 2006 Quotewhy don't you guys wait until the investigation is finished. The FAA has Mike's gear and they've contacted an independant rigger to verify what they found at Orange. If the FAA now has the gear, it has been handled by way to many people for it to reveal the information that could have been found on scene. What we have left in most cases is educated speculation.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thomascg 0 #7 August 30, 2006 although I am not a recreational skydiver, I have done a few jumps in the Marines--so what -- I know Mike was one of the few I could call a best friend on my life I hope the reason for this accident is discovered anyway it can be, Mike would want that For those interested there will be a Memorial service on Wed 8/30 in Alexandria, Va @ 2pm Anyone wishing to attend pls email me at [email protected] with a phone # and I'll be happy to provide directions Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sergant 0 #8 August 30, 2006 I knew Mike and jumped with him couple times... He was the most safety & experienced guy... He didn't pose himself as a guru, but he was a one. Shit happends, that's all I can say :( Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #9 August 31, 2006 I've seen it happen on the ground though... Very exp wingsuit jumper, his own rig and his own S3. Cutaway handle disappeared inside suit after moving around in it for a while. One tab difference... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #10 August 31, 2006 Consdering how simple it is to cut-away the wings of an S3. surely a lost handle should be nothing more than an inconvenience?-- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #11 August 31, 2006 QuoteConsdering how simple it is to cut-away the wings of an S3. surely a lost handle should be nothing more than an inconvenience? Depends on which one, if you're already low and your reserve handle is missing, you then have to go look for the wing cutaways first, in freefall, then control the legwing so you don't go headdown, then locate the reserve handle and pull. Might become hairy.... Or if you have a spinning mal, looking for 2 extra handles is not really a welcome distraction ... Lots of incidents start out with a minor issue like that ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #12 August 31, 2006 QuoteConsdering how simple it is to cut-away the wings of an S3. surely a lost handle should be nothing more than an inconvenience? That's if it occurs to the jumper to use that solution to the problem. On suits that use the Roberts cutaway system, jumpers are generally taught to use the cutaway for one of 3 reasons. Paraphrased in no particular order. 1. Stuck zipper 2. Speed to release arms in the event of an "interesting" opening 3. Kill wings to return to box position if struggling to control flight. It may be worth adding 4. If your handles get sucked into your suit to my future 1st flight BM/PF students (Now there's the power of speculation!) tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #13 August 31, 2006 I've never agreed with point 3. I think you trade one problem for another - it must be more difficult to find one's hackey and other handles with the arm wings blowing around. Incidentally, this incident would have come under point 2 - being an interesting opening. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 August 31, 2006 QuoteConsdering how simple it is to cut-away the wings of an S3. surely a lost handle should be nothing more than an inconvenience? When your world is turning to shit at 120 mph a lost handle sure as hell is not just an inconvenience. That type of thinking has killed more than one skydiver.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #15 August 31, 2006 We're talking about a handle obscured by a suit, which would be easily accessible on pulling the cutaway, not a floating pud that can't be found.-- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bozo 0 #16 August 31, 2006 QuoteWe're talking about a handle obscured by a suit, which would be easily accessible on pulling the cutaway, not a floating pud that can't be found. Hey Pendragon.....I agree with Mike...and to offer a little evidence.....I usta know a guy who went in while wearing a bulky sweatshirt....same scenario, couldnt find a handle momentarily......pulled to low. If it ever happens to you......let us know how it comes out. bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #17 August 31, 2006 QuoteWe're talking about a handle obscured by a suit, which would be easily accessible on pulling the cutaway, not a floating pud that can't be found. If you can't see it that seems something like it "can't be found." While you are looking for this "easily accessible" handle you are still traveling at 176 + feet per second. Complacency can get you killed and that’s about as complacent as it gets. But what do I know, you can probably handle it.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 186 #18 August 31, 2006 QuoteWe're talking about a handle obscured by a suit, which would be easily accessible on pulling the cutaway, not a floating pud that can't be found. Wrong. Handles obscured by suits can easily take the rest of one's life to find - and have done so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #19 August 31, 2006 QuoteConsdering how simple it is to cut-away the wings of an S3. surely a lost handle should be nothing more than an inconvenience? No, it's not. If you look for the handle because of a spun-up opening on a fast canopy, and at that point realize it's missing, then you're dealing with this "inconvenience" while pulling several g's, spinning on your back. All this before you can even begin your EP. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichardCranium 0 #20 August 31, 2006 Quote[bunch of wingsuit release stuff here]All this before you can even begin your EP. Good point. Maybe a good reason that no one should ever consider jumping a wingsuit while doing a Tandem jump! (Sure it's been done, but maybe it should stop before someone gets killed.) The way some idiots are trying to invent "cool" new ways of doing Tandem jumps, maybe they should be told not to before they start doing it with students. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #21 August 31, 2006 QuoteQuote[bunch of wingsuit release stuff here]All this before you can even begin your EP. Good point. Maybe a good reason that no one should ever consider jumping a wingsuit while doing a Tandem jump! (Sure it's been done, but maybe it should stop before someone gets killed.) The way some idiots are trying to invent "cool" new ways of doing Tandem jumps, maybe they should be told not to before they start doing it with students. Just for clarification, are you saying that Tandem Instructors are taking students on tandem jumps wearing a wing suit?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #22 September 1, 2006 At least one has been done. The TI was the late Chris Martin and the student is a RWS tandem examiner. It took off like a bat out of hell accourding to Chris prior to the drogue.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #23 September 1, 2006 QuoteAt least one has been done. The TI was the late Chris Martin and the student is a RWS tandem examiner. It took off like a bat out of hell accourding to Chris prior to the drogue. I was wondering if TI's were doing them with real tandem students.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #24 September 1, 2006 Split this off from the incidents thread. When people start talking Tandem wingsuit - that's a lot of thread drift. It seems acces to the handles was not an issue in the incident. Both wings were unzipped to the elbow, and one wing had been released. There may be some value to discussion here through. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #25 September 1, 2006 QuoteI was wondering if TI's were doing them with real tandem students. I know one has been done in Holland with an inexperienced tandemstudent a few years back (for a TV show) and have seen wingsuit tandems done at two boogies.. It doesnt happen a lot..but people do it every once in a while...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
