Kicking legs during canopy flight

[CloudyHead 0]

wouldn't it be safest to just not respond? If she thinks you can't see her, she will be more likely to stay away. i can't stop scratching my head at this .. shouldn't you keep a safe distance whether you see each other or not?

[chuckakers 370]

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wouldn't it be safest to just not respond? If she thinks you can't see her, she will be more likely to stay away. i can't stop scratching my head at this .. shouldn't you keep a safe distance whether you see each other or not?

Your comment makes it sound like you think two pilots who see each other is somehow more dangerous because the pilots would then fly dangerously close to each other. That's like saying if you see a car coming at you, you would then hug the center line. Makes no sense.

It isn't about keeping distance. That's expected anyway. It's about knowing the other pilot sees you and you see him or her. Knowing that your position has been identified by the other pilot frees you up to look for other traffic that may NOT see you. Additionally, if you are focused too much on staying away from someone who hasn't confirmed they see you, it is much more likely that you could run into someone else that you never saw.

It's about the elimination of the unknown while flying in what amounts to uncontrolled airspace.

Pilots of aircraft do the same thing using mutual radio calls announcing visual contact with other aircraft and it works. Air traffic controllers even use this method by asking the pilots of 2 nearby aircraft to confirm identification of one another.

This is a "best practice" in aviation in general. Not sure how anyone would think we are the exception.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Divalent 89]

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... shouldn't you keep a safe distance whether you see each other or not?

Now I understand your handle.
I think the point is that everyone will be safer if people let others know they are aware of their presence. You might be safer letting someone think you aren't aware of them, but then that other jumper is probably going to be hypervigilant about what you might do, and so making them less able to pay attention to others (or to just relax and enjoy the flight).

Going back to the car analogy, you would be safer if everyone else thought you might abruptly swerve into their lane at any moment, but everyone else is either going to be pulled over onto the side to give you space, or will be nervous as hell until you pass.

[normiss 622]

VERY well stated!
Fully agreed - and also what I was taught as a student jumper.

[DBCOOPER 1]

Yea but airplanes usually aren't in the pattern with 21 other airplanes. I'd be kicking the whole time under canopy... and confusing a lot of people...

Now if we had radios....it would probably sound like unicom...

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[chuckakers 370]

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Yea but airplanes usually aren't in the pattern with 21 other airplanes. I'd be kicking the whole time under canopy... and confusing a lot of people...

Now if we had radios....it would probably sound like unicom...

Sorry DB, a simple leg wave doesn't confuse anyone - except maybe you apparently. I've been jumping for 26 years and using the technique for 26 years. I have never once heard anyone say a quick scissor kick confused them.

Not sure why a few folks insist on dissing something so simple and effective. Of course some folks think we need to get beeped at to know when to turn in the pattern too.

Geez.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[BoogeyMan 0]

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Had the same thing happen last year down at Sebastian.
Only, this gal got right in my face about it.
She was never within 500 yards of me under canopy.
I had never heard of this either.


So, possibly, this is another clever way to meet babes?

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[DBCOOPER 1]

It a very ineffective form of communication. You see someone kick their legs. Is that message for you? It might be. Might not. Now you think that they see you. Are you really any better off?

I'll save my leg kicking for line twist and water landings and treat everyone like they don't see me.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[diablopilot 2]

I'm not dissing it.

I am suggesting that the girl who the OP posted about became to preoccupied with kicking and looking for a response, rather than devoting all her attention to flying a parachute.

I don't really care to know if someone sees me, it's my job to see and avoid.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jlmiracle 7]

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I don't really care to know if someone sees me, it's my job to see and avoid.

Exactly....that's what her priority needs to be under canopy, not kicking.

See and Avoid.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[chuckakers 370]

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It a very ineffective form of communication. You see someone kick their legs. Is that message for you? It might be. Might not. Now you think that they see you. Are you really any better off?

When I wave at someone else I'm also looking at them and when they see me do it and do it back they are obviously looking at me or they wouldn't know to return the gesture. That's solidifies the message pretty darn well.

When I wave while looking at the other person and they wave back while looking at me, that's NOT ineffective communication. That a clear confirmation that we see one another. It's very clear what is being said and removes any doubt that both pilots are aware of the other's position. As I said before, I've been doing it and teaching it for years and have not heard even ONCE that anyone was confused about it.

If the person waving their legs is looking the other direction when they do it, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out they are waving at someone else - and that's easy to confirm by looking to see what they are looking at. And what they are looking at might just be someone you didn't see in the first place!

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 370]

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I'm not dissing it.

I am suggesting that the girl who the OP posted about became to preoccupied with kicking and looking for a response, rather than devoting all her attention to flying a parachute.

I don't really care to know if someone sees me, it's my job to see and avoid.

You can't avoid what you can't see - as in someone above you.

There are many times when 2 jumpers are more or less on level and could signal that they see each other, and then become not on level - like when one does a spiral to create vertical separation or the two canopies have different loadings. Using your argument of not caring if the other guy sees you (and therefore never bothered to confirm a mutual visual), you could find yourself the low man after you had the opportunity to communicate.

In that scenario you are a sitting duck, waiting to be taken out by the guy you didn't care about communicating with when you could've.

Remember, it's the things you do that you don't have to do that will make the difference when it's too late to do anything about it.

As for a jumper getting so preoccupied with communicating that they fail to keep looking and avoiding other traffic, that person shouldn't be in the air in the first place. Canopy safety requires multi-tasking and anyone who can't do that should choose a less tasking hobby.

BTW, I'm not talking about looking around all over the place and waving at everyone in the air. When I talk about waving, I am referring to doing it when other traffic could be a factor.

While I have heard many, many times a jumper tell another jumper after a near-miss "I thought you saw me", I have never heard ANYONE discuss how a close call was CAUSED by a mutual communication. That's enough of an argument for me.

Aircraft pilots confirm visual ID on other aircraft constantly through wing wagging, mutual radio calls, and even by confirming with air traffic controllers that they "have a visual on the traffic".

It works, and given our miserable record of canopy collisions I think we should all consider using it.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 370]

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Had the same thing happen last year down at Sebastian.
Only, this gal got right in my face about it.
She was never within 500 yards of me under canopy.
I had never heard of this either.


So, possibly, this is another clever way to meet babes?

That gal is the same as the folks who think they MUST be on final by XXX feet - taking a good idea to a ridiculous extreme. Obviously at 500 yards out communication would be unnecessary. As a proponent of visual communication under canopy, I only advocate doing it when you are close enough that the other jumper could actually be a factor to you.

Did you mention to her that at 500 yards you couldn't even see her waving her legs?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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[billvon 2,434]

>You see someone kick their legs. Is that message for you?

If they are looking at you when they do it - probably yes.

[BoogeyMan 0]

Jeeze, Billy........!!! We're right back where we started. Full face helmets, reflective goggles...!! Perhaps the way to go is semaphore. Canopy lights actuated by a button wired to the toggles, so the hot canopy flyers won't have to take their hands off to wave at others.

[skybytch 259]

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Recently I'm flying along at 1500 ft, going due north as straight and level as possible and I see this canopy on the same level that is heading about 160 deg (SSE) and will pass me at a distance of about 300 feet.

1500 feet is fairly close to pattern altitude. If I'm on the same level with someone at 1500 feet and we're heading for the same landing area, I'd be kicking my feet too. It would be nice to know that you see me - if we continue to fly on the same level throughout the pattern, it is possible for us to collide, especially if the "lead" canopy does S turns on final.

Kick your legs back if you want. More importantly, create vertical separation if you see someone on your level flying a similar canopy/wingloading. Out of curiosity, did she lose or gain altitude on you after she kicked her legs or did she remain on level with you throughout the pattern?

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For an old fart, the new safety has absolutely taken the fun out of the canopy ride, to the extent, I'm tempted to check my Email on the long boring ride down.

Yeah, I miss the days of post-RW CRW hookups and spiraling down to final too. But remember, we all jumped similar (and slow) mains back then. This new safety you speak of is needed considering the wide range of canopy speeds on any particular load, . The Big Sky Theory is no longer valid.

[billvon 2,434]

>We're right back where we started. Full face helmets, reflective goggles...!

90% of the people I jump with use full face helmets. It's still pretty easy to tell if they're looking at your or not. It's really not that hard.

[Hellis 0]

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>We're right back where we started. Full face helmets, reflective goggles...!

90% of the people I jump with use full face helmets. It's still pretty easy to tell if they're looking at your or not. It's really not that hard.

I think you missread what he meant Bill.
He uses a fullface, and reflective googles and cant see the other people.

But if he really means he cant see the difference of front and back of a helmet, you are either ..... or too far away to and dont need to comunicate

[peregrinerose 0]

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It a very ineffective form of communication. You see someone kick their legs. Is that message for you? It might be. Might not. Now you think that they see you. Are you really any better off?

I'll save my leg kicking for line twist and water landings and treat everyone like they don't see me.

Uh, Chad and I both do the quick leg kick to ensure that the other guy sees us if it's fairly close proximity and we're not sure. I was taught that 8 years ago when I started jumping, so it's been around at least that long. I probably actually use it once a year on average, so it's not like everyone's wandering around the sky kicking like idiots, and I've found it to be very effective.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[lowhook 0]

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Well, shouting out doesn't work anymore, because everyone is wearing those cool full-face helmets which block off their ears and their sense of hearing, as well as their ability to project a laugh or to shout out at you. And they also wear those cool mirror sunglasses so that you can't make eye contact and you don't know where they're looking, so that's now out too. Then there's the cool high performance canopies which the users don't dare take their hands out of the toggles for a second to grab their crotch. And of course, they're wearing a Go-Pro camera on their helmet too, so they don't want to turn their head to look at you because it will mess up the video. So, yeah, all we've got left is a leg kick with which to communicate. Something will probably come along shortly to remove that too. Then we'll be down to; "Hey, didn't you see me wiggling my toes at you?"

John, I am sure you do not have any of those problems because everyone can see you with your baggie suit and you will not steer into anyone under your paracommander and your can hear everything through your frap hat. Sure do miss those good old days.

[chuckakers 370]

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Well, shouting out doesn't work anymore, because everyone is wearing those cool full-face helmets which block off their ears and their sense of hearing, as well as their ability to project a laugh or to shout out at you. And they also wear those cool mirror sunglasses so that you can't make eye contact and you don't know where they're looking, so that's now out too. Then there's the cool high performance canopies which the users don't dare take their hands out of the toggles for a second to grab their crotch. And of course, they're wearing a Go-Pro camera on their helmet too, so they don't want to turn their head to look at you because it will mess up the video. So, yeah, all we've got left is a leg kick with which to communicate. Something will probably come along shortly to remove that too. Then we'll be down to; "Hey, didn't you see me wiggling my toes at you?"

John, I am sure you do not have any of those problems because everyone can see you with your baggie suit and you will not steer into anyone under your paracommander and your can hear everything through your frap hat. Sure do miss those good old days.

John jumps a pro-tec, silly boy.

He also jumps a ripcord, and it really freaks out the "now-genners" when they see it in its pocket directly over his cutaway pillow.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[BoogeyMan 0]

You missed it too....... Read post #13.

[popsjumper 2]

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I don't really care to know if someone sees me, it's my job to see and avoid.

Yep. I bet all those guys that collided thought they were expert visual inspectors, too.
Good luck.
Unbelievably

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

All you guys arguing against this:
This is a good display of why we are having so much problems. People just don't give a shit about safety. Something so fucking simple and you can't bring yourself to do it. Not only that, but you want to argue against it.
Unfucking believable.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,434]

>I don't really care to know if someone sees me, it's my job to see and avoid.

It's _everyone's_ job to see and avoid.

To me kicking is a good way of determining how big a risk someone is. If they are closing with me and will pass close to me they will get most of my attention - attention that is then not available to look elsewhere. Once I know they see me then I can afford to spend more of my time looking for other traffic.