mariavon 0 #1 March 7, 2005 Hello everyone. Jules here. Here are some photo's i took of tim-o-t a while back. So this is it. Hope ALL flyers fly, it's much better than walking. Ka KAAAAAAAAA..... (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #2 March 7, 2005 Juli Baby! Hope all is good with you! Those are incredible pics, and the best I have seen to date. The suit looks VERY clean (Even worn by Tim) but I'm hugely impressed by how the "rear wing deflector" comes up the back of the rig. Citrusdal is looking mighty dry these days... but still brings back memories. Thanks for the news! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bartje 0 #3 March 7, 2005 Is it Tim the packer? A FreeFly Gypsy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #4 March 8, 2005 Sick Jules, sick. Thanks! Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #5 March 8, 2005 Came back here and studied the pics some more. That suit is fXXking awesome. Very clean Very tight. Love the armswings and the overall profile of the top surface of the human wing is MUCH smoother than anything else out there. Unlike most of the pics of birdmen I see, he's flying legs locked and straight. Most birdmen in most pics are flying with legs bent at the knees at quite a bit less than maxed out full thrust so they have some median zone to adjust and stay with each other. So was the cameraman flying an SG as well? Or was the cameraman flying a lesser suit but weighs less than the SG pilot? I don't see too much room for variance with that thing. It looks maxed out and anything other than maxed out locked knees is going to look kinda floppy and draggy isn't it? Maria you mentioned feedback so I got a couple more questions about the next version you mentioned... 1. In the pic the suits tailwing arches upward like my GTI, a concave trailing edge... If I'm standing on the floor in my GTI the center of my wing won't drag or touch the ground. The SG shown is the same. In the early pics I saw of the PF suit last season they had the tail so maxed out and stiffenered (by the looks of it) it had a hugely convex trailing edge that stuck out behind the pilot's feet quite a ways. Standing on the floor in THAT suit would result in 6 inches of your tail dragging on the floor. I'd wondered about long term durability, abrasions, dragging wing damage. But I drooled over the size of those wings, especially because the legwing was so big it made it possible to toefly. Most birdmen seem to fly their legwing with their knees mostly, toes just control tension. The PF proto looked like you could lock your knees and effectively fly it with your toes instead and I bet thats a HUGE improvement in subtle feel and control. It looks as if that PF protosuit had a tailwing a good 1.5 square feet bigger than the SG. So why does the SG have a tail cut like that? If the point of the suit is monster wing area, couldn't the tail be the same as the PF? Adding that much more wing to the already huge SG would probably get a good pilot another 15-20 seconds of flight time and add a hell of a lot of drive. Disclaimer: I am an untrained professional do not try this at home batteries not included each sold separately some assembly required your mileage may vary user assumes all risk of listening to anything I say or uninformed aerial engineering ideas I may have. Void where prohibited. Comments? Maria? Other birds? Designers? Jari? Robert? Loic? Loudiamond?Live and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #6 March 8, 2005 Lurch IMO the answer to all the questions of why is.... Think if all suits were made the same way, with the same design..... It would be like eating ONLY peanut butter for the rest of your life! Keepin' it safe! Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedformula 0 #7 March 8, 2005 <<>> I had wondered exactly the same thing. paul Keeping it real 22x7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #8 March 8, 2005 but....but...I LIKE peanut butter. Besides I got a GTI for when I want, like, some jelly with that you know?Live and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #9 March 8, 2005 Wait a minute wait a minute. What the... We were discussing the tails on prototype wingsuits and flying characteristics. Smack me if I missed something but where exactly does peanut butter become involved anyway? And why wasn't I warned to expect it? Nobody told me to bring peanut butter to the discussion. Nobody issued an instruction bulletin informing me of the requirements, ( step 1: go to kitchen. step 2: acquire jar of peanut butter. Step 3: Return to seat with jar. Step 4: Activate computer and report to birdman forum....) A little yellow sticky note would suffice.Live and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedformula 0 #10 March 8, 2005 Keeping it real 22x7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #11 March 9, 2005 OK, here's your yellow sticky QuoteIt looks as if that PF protosuit had a tailwing a good 1.5 square feet bigger than the SG. So why does the SG have a tail cut like that? If the point of the suit is monster wing area, couldn't the tail be the same as the PF? Adding that much more wing to the already huge SG would probably get a good pilot another 15-20 seconds of flight time and add a hell of a lot of drive. Hmmm, because it's NOT a PF suit maybe? Keepin' it safe! Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #12 March 9, 2005 Ok I'm back and I'm packing a 32 oz jar of Skippy PB. Bring it on! Huh? What, did I miss the rumble or something? Oh. Ok, fine. Maybe next time. Thanks for the yellow sticky note. My day is complete. Life is good.Live and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #13 March 9, 2005 Quote Ok I'm back and I'm packing a 32 oz jar of Skippy PB. Chunky or Creamy? And I'm bringing the Jelly Bro. Keepin' it safe! Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mariavon 0 #14 March 9, 2005 Hey Lurch ... Gee! I am really getting it for the short tail wing today .. had two flyers in our studio today roasting me about it .... well about 18 months ago we tested suits with long, then looonger tails and big, then bigger wings .. "TAIL - UPS" on base jumps (causing head -downs) put me off the long tails at the time .. also i figured that the legs and especially feet are working hard to stabilise and steer almost like rudders and we all thought it felt better to leave them hanging last . There is plenty of lift in that area already from the armwing which extends to the heel and the back deflector inflates and catches air down at the heel too ... forward drive? .. mmmmm ? yea I am waiting for the maths on the optimum total wing length for our new profile .. one thing is sure if the tail extends its gotta be stiff .. damn embarrasing to have this flappy thing at the end .. my choice for long tail was toe to toe to get the best tension .. I still go there .. long tail ?..its gotta be usefull to slow you forward and vertically if you observe that a bird flares its tail before landing .. we are kinda happy with our vertical speeds so we have been working on our forward speed to get a better balance ..( Jules has always raved about the forward speed however .. he cant understand the slow forward debate ) ..stability has also been an issue on our big wings so thats been under correction in our new design .. the wings on the sugarglider in the pics are of an average size in the range we have been testing .. that suit has come up best for comfort , effort and performance . My idea has been to build a suit that fits in well with the current wingsuit paradigm , as a baseline from which to develop really amazing things .Our production model is a highly polished version of the suit you see in the pics..with some fun surprises .. big photo session this weekend and then you can see .. yea by the way the cameraman Jules flies a same suit as Tim .. hey Lurch you know you made me think old stuff over again .. still bugs me .. thanks .... God it feels so amazing to be working on getting people to fly ! (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #15 March 10, 2005 Maria: Thanks for being open to feedback from the pilots who can't wait to fly the thing. Couple more questions: How well did the big tailed suits you tried work? Does a superlong tail cause instability or other issues? The PF protosuit photos I mentioned earlier looked like they had excellent cell pressurization all the way to the end. It wasn't a really huge tail, it stuck out maybe 6 inches below/behind his toes. I'm guessing if it was much longer it WOULD flap but thats what the stiffeners are for anyway. I've noticed another subtlety which can be taken into account. In a lot of pics I typically see birdmen flying with their toes down and knees bent. The knees bent part is drive and fallrate throttle and the toes bite into your bottom skin airflow and are used as rudders. I tended to do the same flying with others the few times I've done so. When I'm flying alone though I instinctively tension my bottom surface and go for max surface area max stretch and minimum drag by pointing my toes straight behind me like I'm trying to stand on tiptoe. In my GTI there is a slightly frustrating sense of having an incomplete tailwing because the sense of lift and wing stops at my shins. The feel is a lot like jumping barechested. You're used to flying with a certain amount of drag, "grip" on the air from your customary jumpsuit with fabric on sleeves and torso. Sitflyers in particular can relate. Now jump topless, not even gloves, and you might even flail a bit due to that sense of no traction at all. I know I did, when I tried it. A lot of what I value in the birdman experience is the sense of lying down on the air itself and having it support me evenly like a tempurpedic mattress. I get that sense of wonderful lifty supported feeling from everywhere except that big area between my feet and below my ankles. The more I point my toes straight back and pull tight the stronger the lifty feeling but it feels exactly like my toes are hanging off the edge of the mattress. I feel like I could lay my weight down even more evenly and be even lighter if I could wiggle forward on the mattress far enough to get my stretched out toes onto the edge. Still with me here? I guess I'm trying to say that sense of flying is just begging for a trailing edge that at least goes to the tips of my toes, designed to assume I'm flying toes-back instead of toes down. I know it can stick out at least an inch or two behind pointed toes without flapping both because of those PF proto pics and observation of armwing pressurization behavior on my own suit. I can fly holding my wingtips tight with my fingers, but if I don't the wingtip stays ballooned tight behind my wrist anyway. Holding my wingtips just lets me shift some weight to the ends of the wings further out than the wing naturally would by ending at the wrist. My next suit I want the leg wing to at least be long enough to stretch my trailing edge into a straight line between the tips of my toes. I can't wait to see your next set of pics. The last set provoked my first major episode of "need bigger suit-itis". I like it. I see 5 minute flights becoming possible soon. Live and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #16 March 10, 2005 QuoteThe PF protosuit photos I mentioned earlier looked like they had excellent cell pressurization all the way to the end. Did those suits have stiffeners in the leg wing?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsane 0 #17 March 10, 2005 Do the SugarGlider folks have a website yet??? Any demo suits out there yet?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #18 March 10, 2005 QuoteDo the SugarGlider folks have a website yet??? I heard they are getting up developed soon. QuoteAny demo suits out there yet?? Pablo (speedformula) told me they are going to send him some demos to distribute. He is sending his to Jason (Voodew) in Texas to demos after rigger Pete relaces the zipper(s) broke on the first jump on it. Maybe if you ask nicely he'll send it to you after that? Keepin' it safe! Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedformula 0 #19 March 11, 2005 Not sane: You wanna jump it ? no prob, just as long as you meet/ have at least the minimum wingsuit experience required. suit's already going someplace else after texas. but dont sweat it , it will get there. and that pretty much goes to anyone who wants to try it. as long as your in the US its fine, drop me a line Paul Keeping it real 22x7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #20 March 11, 2005 There's demos in circulation? Any that'll fit a 135 lb 5'10" guy? ????? Just so I'm clear, pardon me for yelling..... I WANNA JUMP IT!!!!Live and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #21 March 11, 2005 I'm wondering what would happen is you where to take this design, and then add grippers/extenders to the arm-wings like on a V1 (enlarging the arm-wings even more), and enlarging the tail to extend a small bit past the feet. That would make for an insane amount of surface area...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #22 March 11, 2005 QuoteThat would make for an insane amount of surface area... You'd have to be careful not to just make that an insane amount of drag. Bigger wings don't necessarily generate more lift, so just adding extra wing area might actually make the suit fly worse. If done right, though? Yeah, I think you're onto something. Why not wear scuba flippers, and run the suit all the way to the toes of the flippers? I know that just the flippers makes for an incredibly powerful track--I can't imagine them paired with a big leg wing.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #23 March 11, 2005 Mayde I should have the guys at PD install a zipper in the center cell of my main, and jump thatJC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedformula 0 #24 March 11, 2005 << Mayde I should have the guys at PD install a zipper in the center cell of my main, and jump thatTongue I think you'd get better glide ratio with a garage door. oh wait, felix already did that, never mind. Keeping it real 22x7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #25 March 11, 2005 Played with photoshop a bit JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
