No of wingsuit dives before becoming a BMI

[Tonto 1]

So how many Wingsuit dives did you have before you went on the BMI course?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[ManBird 0]

I had over/around 300 when I became a BM-I, but had been taking people up before that. I'm glad that I took the course, though. A lot of knowledge and many good things come with getting the BM-I.

They still need to send me my patch, though. That sucker's going right on my crotch. Maybe that's why they aren't sending it.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[diablopilot 2]

That's ok, I haven't got mine either.....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[VectorBoy 0]

Steve I'll sell you my patch. Its a lot of parasitic drag for an S3.I'm sure I can achieve better numbers and faster glide without it.

[ManBird 0]

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Steve I'll sell you my patch. Its a lot of parasitic drag for an S3.I'm sure I can achieve better numbers and faster glide without it.

HAHAHAAH!!! Yeah, dump the patch. Then get rid of the tabs that connect the wings to the body (so what if most of them are behind the MLW). That's like SEVERAL square millimeters of parasitic drag. You're just falling straight down until you can find a way around this issue. :)

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[VectorBoy 0]

Yeah, dump the patch. Then get rid of the tabs that connect the wings to the body (so what if most of them are behind the MLW). That's like SEVERAL square millimeters of parasitic drag. ***

I already have, its called the Matter2. With its seamless transition between wing and body, sleak and sexy black neoprene and nylon.......Samokin!

[diablopilot 2]

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[kevin922 0]

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So how many Wingsuit dives did you have before you went on the BMI course?

t

I had over 200, but I hear it's possible with less than 15.

[Tonto 1]

I don't have the talent to do it at 15...

I'm just a long way from the US, you know? I'll probably end up doing it when I'm there in December - and if I pass, great. If I fail, I'll still learn tons. Any idea how much it costs?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[cpoxon 0]

96. Did mine with Jari and Kim before Chuck and Scott enhanced the programme.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[kevin922 0]

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I don't have the talent to do it at 15...

I'm just a long way from the US, you know? I'll probably end up doing it when I'm there in December - and if I pass, great. If I fail, I'll still learn tons. Any idea how much it costs?

t

$300.00 i believe unless the price has changed.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

$300 bucks (US). We really prefer to have our candidates to have over 100 wingsuit flights, some other instructional background, and over 500 jumps, but there have been and will continue to be some exceptions to each of those criteria. Some people have the skill-set to nail the air evaluation with less than 20 flights. On the other hand, some people with vast instructional background can't put together a complete and concise ground brief and don't even get as far as an air eval. I just taught a course in Canada where only one candidate even owned his own suit. All were brilliant "natural" skydivers, though, and by the end of the long weekend had no problem whatsoever taking docks, passing their air eval, and taking "real" students for the rest of the boogie.

Of particular note at that boogie was the fact that one newly-minted BMI (Nick Stetzenko) has already forged the document/sylabus that will become the wingsuit instructional doctrine in the CSPA PIM (their "SIM"). Totally squared away.

Chuck
BMCI

[Tonto 1]

OK then.

Jumps at my DZ are $22.50 to 11 000ft (We're in Africa..) and I was thinking of saving money now to fly more then. (In Eloy) I guess I'd better keep plodding along. I'm guessing I'll be close to 100, but not quite there.

Once I get the rating - I won't be able to charge students anyway - as our system allows payment for AFF and Tandem, but not for "coaching." Best I could hope for is getting my slot paid for, and charging suit hire - except I don't have the cash to go out and buy 5 suits with the volume of students I expect.

Ak well. I'll keep flying - and keep learning. The path is always revealed to us if we choose to walk it!

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

The purpose of the BMI course is to validate it as a pure and legitimate form of introductory instruction. I am not a BirdMan "Coach". I train people on an entirely new aparatus and have no problem charging people to do so. I cannot believe that your "system" could restrict you from recouping your investment in this case.

Chuck

[ChrisG 0]

The BMI course is strictly a means for the BMI course leaders to make money. Its more an ego thing than anything else. It has no benefit other than you can wear a BMI patch. You can instruct people on wingsuit flight if you have a BMI or not.
There is no rules stating that you cannot.
You can get a BMI even if you don't own a wingsuit!
(according to Skymonkey) That severly dilutes a BMI rating and makes it worth nothing. All you have to be is a decent skydiver, and have $300 bucks to waste.
How about this- besides getting a patch, what use is it?

Yari used to teach it for nothing. (maybe he still does) It took about an hour, and a reading of the manual.
I think no one with less than 2 to 300 wingsuit jumps should even be considered for a BMI course.
Does that really make any sense that someone with few wingsuit jumps can say he's an instructor?
Like I said, its mainly a means for the BMI holders to say-- LOOK AT ME!! I'm a wingsuit instructor!! I must be good!! , and also for people to try and suck some money out of you.
A course that teaches people how to properly fly a suit would be much better, and maybe worth something.
Chris

[ManBird 0]

Hey Chris, I totally sympathize. If you look at my old posts, you'll find that I thought the same thing. I did an OK job of taking students up before I went through the BM-I course. I was flying pretty well and didn't need a patch to prove it. I was essentially forced (extremely coerced) into biting the bullet and taking the BM-I course.

I ended out learning a lot from the course -- a lot more than I realized I really could learn. The course is truly as intensive as an AFF course (haven't ), and not everyone passes. Something else I learned is that the skilled instructor fits the role better than the skilled wingsuit pilot (there are often times separate ground and air instructors). The patch doesn't say, "I'm hot wingsuit shit", it's there to identify those who can provide the knowledge that the manufacturer has about wingsuit flight and safety.

There are tangible benefits, too. You have access to demo suits and good connections with BirdMan. That was the biggest draw for me. It pays for itself. If you get the rating at a boogie, you'll probably have your money back by the end of the weekend (if you make yourself available). You get listed in the BM-I directory. Skydivers in the area go to bird-man.com to look for the closest instructor and they find you, so you don't even have to go shopping yourself around. At my own DZ, with local jumpers and friends, I give hookups. But once I find myself travelling or holding off on some hard flocking dives, I realize that, hey, these are what they call "work jumps". I have yet to charge BirdMan's full recommended price, but I do charge enough to at least cover my ass. Being a BM-I also has several benefits that apply to purchasing your own suits.

Knowledge from experience can't be beat. I ranted and raved about not needing to become a BM-I because I already had the necessary knowledge and skills. The problem is that I was the only one who knew that. The concern BirdMan has, and rightfully so, is inconsistency in training that can result in some very bad things. The only truly wingsuit-related skydiving fatality was in large part due to bad instruction from an "unverified" (and evidently unqualified) instructor. Nop matter how much we think we know, there is still a LOT to gain from the course. I'm sure you do just fine taking new people up, but it's hard to rely on hearsay. There may be gaps or invalid information in your instruction, there may not, but how is anyone to know?

The BM-I course is a good thing. It's got to be the most progressive instructional program for wingsuit pilots (don't know the details of Matter's program).

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[kevin922 0]

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The course is truly as intensive as an AFF course (haven't ), and not everyone passes.

Have you been through an AFF course?

[Tonto 1]

I've been through 2 AFF courses.

The first was a USPA course run by Don Yarling.
He was firm but fair, and I passed quite easily having more trouble with the ground school being unfamiliar with the SIM and not yet being an instructor.

The second was in South Africa - and required me to demonstrate my competence on a real student from L1 to completing of the program.

I think I can teach - so it's the flying which worries me. So far, I think I'm doing ok. I'm learning. That's good.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[ManBird 0]

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The course is truly as intensive as an AFF course (haven't ), and not everyone passes.

Have you been through an AFF course?

HAAH!! I somehow managed to not finish that thought! I haven't been through an AFF course, but I discreetly lurked one quite a bit. I've heard of a lot of parallels between the two. The consensus seems to be that the BM-I course isn't quite as intense as AFF, but the model is very similar.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[notsane 0]

IMHO ...

There are similarities and differences between the BMI and AFF instructor. For both, the ground instruction is critical. During freefall though, the AFF instructor has their hands on the student and can help with a wide variety of problems. There's little the BMI can do in freefall to help a student who's in really bad trouble other than watch. The BMI's main job in freefall is to provide feedback for the next jump.

This makes the ground instruction, the need for a standardized course and BMI qualification that much more important. Good instructor skills and good course material (Thanks Chuck and Scott!) are much more crucial to the student having a good, fun jump that having BirdGod flying abilities.

I certainly don't expect to get rich being a BMI, but being able to give something back to the sport and given all the perks ... it's a pretty good investment.

[ManBird 0]

A big, hearty second on notsane's post.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[VectorBoy 0]

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The BMI course is strictly a means for the BMI course leaders to make money.
Like I said, its mainly a means for the BMI holders to say-- LOOK AT ME!! I'm a wingsuit instructor!! I must be good!! , and also for people to try and suck some money out of you.
A course that teaches people how to properly fly a suit would be much better, and maybe worth something.
Chris

***

The wingsuit market is a very small fraction of the total skydiving market which is pretty small itself.

The companies that actually make wingsuits have precious few employees outside of folks that are hands on productions. Some companies farm out production and are streamline sales and product support houses that can all be taken for a skydive in a C-182.
Remember we are not talking about canopy manufacturer here. Who can absorb the costs of a bunch of DEMO gear in the field.
In order to get the gear and quality first flight training out to the people the unseen costs to the volunteers has to be recouped somehow. The manufacturers can't afford to pay for this. And I couldn't expect a BMI to pay for this themselves.
The BMI, for that brand of wingsuits, is how some of the volunteers do it. BM is probably the biggest WS maker and as some of the other makers out there grow and others come on the horizon They may choose different methods for these unseen costs.

The definition of BMI and what it is all about gets clouded sometimes. The comparrison to an AFF instructor is weak. No WS instructor is gonna be able to fly down to Flailer/backspinner, grab them, right them and deploy for them to save their life. And this is exactly what an AFF I must be able to do.

Freefalling, deploying and landing your equiptment must be mastered before you take your combination to the wingsuits. Its not the job of the BMI to fix your existing issues. The wingsuit mentor needs to explain the new challenges related to the suit and help with other traffic and navigation. Believe or not this is my biggest challenge with new ( for lack of a better word )students.

You also cannot expect Airspeed/Alchemy's, who have tens of thousands of focused jumps, level of one on one coaching from a BMI unless that person has tens thousands of focused wingsuit jumps.

Down here the initial batch of BMI's were so bad that they wouldn't be invited on later flocks for fear of them being dangerous. The word got out quick, save your money DIY on a borrowed suit. This practice still persists today with all but the people that haven't gotten the word. And there are plenty of spare suits floating around, few real BMI's past or present have spares. And, again down here, sadly the badge to this day is considered a joke.

[ManBird 0]

I'm not the only one thinking it, but I'll doom myself by saying it. Perris is the home of two leg strapless jumps and a plane strike. In the wingsuit world outside of Perris, the word is, "they need to get their shit together". Those that think wingsuits are eventually going to get ousted from the sport 99.9% use events at Perris to backup their views. Perris is far from the model of wingsuit communities at other DZs, and it really shouldn't be thought of as such. All a matter of perspective, I guess.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[VectorBoy 0]

The perpetrators of both events were not from Perris but instead visitors with other home DZ's. The leg strap incident wasn't the first. The first one wasn't at Perris either and it happened years before BM came out to the west coast.

This time I personally know the guy who it happened to. I would say he is a solid wingsuit flyer, a nice guy and have no reservation whatsoever flying a complex tight formation and take a dock on him ( oh yeah I remember now that is Exactly what we did for a few jumps a day or two after his incident )despite the leg strap bad press. He is human and his only mistake was maybe rushing on to a flock after taking a break from flying wingsuits and somehow ommited a very important gear item. Instead of getting on a high horse about it flockers should view it as really something to learn from. I've heard Pros say it about other pros that have gone in, "if it can happen to him it can happen to me". Now that's something to learn from.
And In my opinion this flyer has more flight skill than some of the BMI's out there, could it be.

If you know of any other bad events, incidents or bad habits due directly to the Perris area wingsuit crowd I would love to talk about it, in this open forum or via PM.

For the most part we are a small self regulating group that takes care of it's own. When we go to other DZs the staff there is happy and never has had to overide foolish behavior or practices. And they should know because some of the staff has come along on rides with us.

Perris was one of, if not the first, DZ to host a wingsuit flight operations area. Before Rantoul, before Eloy. But remember a DZ is fixed location, jumpers travel all over the world.

Just to help those formally known as "the wingsuit world outside of Perris"with any further speculation.

And I know some official BMI's may take my previous comments personal. Bear in mind that they were my comments but not my sentiments. They are the sentiments of a community of jumpers. I know its easy to attack the messenger and I don't take it personal at all.

These sentiments were discussed by me with Chuck, Scott and Bettsy months before the new BMI program was enacted.
I do believe you along with some of the other BMI's received some good BMI instruction at Chucks BMI class. Flyers that I respect have given the class the thumbs up in terms of value.
The problem is that not every newly certified BMI has gone through this class, yes there still is some Gimme's out there ( probably outside of Chucks area of ops). This adds to BMI's out there self promoting with weak skills ( people skills and flight skills ) And some of the new BMI's also are conducting themselves, at other DZ', in such a way that bring out comments like Chris's above. I've had more than one wingsuit jumper from more than one DZ PM with issues about the BMI's behavior here or there. Bottom line if someone out there posts that they feel the BMI's are posturing or out to collect money instead of posting about all the fun they had on their fun first flight ( which I personally believe is fair to get compensated for )or at the whatever excellent organized flocking event than those particular BMI's are not "spreading the love", "Sharing the crack", or, in my humble opinion, not part of the cutting edge of the "new wing revolution" they are simply the part that gets thrown away.

[VectorBoy 0]

Those that think wingsuits are eventually going to get ousted from the sport 99.9%

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Are simply feeble minded and fearfull of what they don't understand. A smallish DZO may ban it, just like hook turns but then again wingsuiters will just go someplace else. But then again is the fear or perception out there really that bad for wingsuits?.....Perris?

use events at Perris to backup their views. Perris is far from the model of wingsuit communities at other DZs, and it really shouldn't be thought of as such. All a matter of perspective, I guess.