Ideas for Rantoul

[billvon 2,400]

So I wanted to start a thread to get some ideas for improving exit separation/procedures for Rantoul this year. Some issues:

-Birdmen first or last?
-One dedicated jump run?
-Designate an area you must open above? (i.e. north of the hangars)
-How do we ensure briefings have been given? What should be in them?
-How do we deal with people who simply do not want to do the above?
-Training. Can anyone take a new birdman up?

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I believe what we ended up doing last year, as far as flight plans go, will have to be in effect this year as well. That, or exactly the opposite side, depending on which way the prevailing winds are. We will absolutely have to have a "line of demarcation" which nobody will be permitted to fly back over during flight. I have a feeling it's going to be another very-busy year at the BirdMan tent.


As for students, I think we are going to have to keep the higher-jump-number restriction for first-flight students like last year as well; too great a chance for catastrophe if an errant navigator flies back under the other jumpruns. Any BMI will be able to take students up (it's their right as a graduate of the course), but we, like last year, will have a meeting at the tent/trailer (Rancho Deluxe again) to discuss training protocol and who will be doing what at the actual BM, Incorporated vendor/training station. There is absolutely plenty of work to go around and there are some times of the day (read: early in the day) where we are short-handed at the tent.

We, like last year, will have the manifest people checking for the "BM" on the wrist bands. We will give the briefings at the tent to people as they come in. No wingsuits on the planes without the "BM". No wingsuits on other than the plane flying the correct jumprun. Get busted by Bryan Burke and you are done flying wingsuits.

I myself got scared to death on two skydives last year where I was showered with "falling maggots" from trailing airplanes. We will have to be very disciplined in our flight plans this year.



Chuck

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

-How do we ensure briefings have been given? What should be in them?
-How do we deal with people who simply do not want to do the above?

I think Chuck hit on some of the issues but what I feel is really the weak link are the above 2 questions. Trying to plan this so that everyone gets the brief and the "slicky guys" who don't want to follow rules is the hardest part of the whole convention. I know for a fact that there were people who jumped the convention that never came by the Birdman tent for the brief or to get their bands marked. On top of that, the only ones checking for bands being marked on Birdman jumps was the AZ aircraft. If you went to another tent,no one bothered to ask you squat. Part of the problem also lies with the aircraft and the personalities behind who owns those aircraft as to following the rules. I spoke with Bryan about this and it's something that goes beyond what we're even concerned about here but he is dealing with it. As for the people who choose not to follow the rules,just like any other safety violation/issue, it has to be addressed by those in charge at the convention and there has to be a consequence.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[billvon 2,400]

I'm not sure whether exiting first makes the most sense. Exiting last, to me, has the same problems that exiting first does except you're dealing with the next aircraft's traffic instead of your own aircraft's. And if you bust the line of flight, you will _always_ have traffic problems with your own aircraft (if you get out first) but will only sometimes have problems with the next aircraft, depending on aircraft spacing. It's rare that all three jump runs have planes 2 minutes apart; you'd need 30 aircraft flying continuously to keep up such a pace.

[Jasmin 0]

exit last.
thems the rules. Don't want to play by the rules, don't play bm at all.
be careful with who takes the newby's up

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[LouDiamond 1]

I agree with you on all points to a degree Bill and this is a difficult problem to solve. However, Chuck and I were on the same load early on in the convention when we were still getting out last and the trail A/C people damn near killed everyone on that flight. I still firmly believe that getting out last at the convention is not the ticket. When I have more time I will PM you with my thoughts as I would like to hear yours as well and maybe we can find a better solution.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[kevin922 0]

Quote

I'm not sure whether exiting first makes the most sense. Exiting last, to me, has the same problems that exiting first does except you're dealing with the next aircraft's traffic instead of your own aircraft's. And if you bust the line of flight, you will _always_ have traffic problems with your own aircraft (if you get out first) but will only sometimes have problems with the next aircraft, depending on aircraft spacing. It's rare that all three jump runs have planes 2 minutes apart; you'd need 30 aircraft flying continuously to keep up such a pace.

What about a birdman specific aircraft that flys a totally seperate jumprun from everyone else? :-)

They got enough planes laying around at rantoul to do this, right?

Or hell have a "birdman only" load.. might not get as many jumps in but it'll be safer.

kevin

[billvon 2,400]

>exit last. thems the rules.

At Rantoul the rule is exit first, which is why I was bringing it up.

[billvon 2,400]

>What about a birdman specific aircraft that flys a totally seperate
>jumprun from everyone else? :-)

Sure, but would you be OK never getting to use a tailgate? The completely separate jump run is an interesting idea though.

[PhreeZone 15]

>Sure, but would you be OK never getting to use a tailgate?

Rotate planes on a daily basis. Day one is Otter, day 2 is Skyvan (PITA with the door and Wings on) day three is CASA only... Something like that. That way only one plane would have to fly a different jump run. Say Birdman jumpruns on the top and bottom of every hour only? Cuts into the jumping but it would promote larger flocks and safer jump runs.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

I know for a fact that there were people who jumped the convention that never came by the Birdman tent for the brief or to get their bands marked.

Was that a requirement of the convention organizers (Don)?

Quote

On top of that, the only ones checking for bands being marked on Birdman jumps was the AZ aircraft.

Was that also a requirement?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Was that a requirement of the convention organizers (Don)?

Yes, it was after we realized there was an issue. It was announced several times throughout the day,everyday of the convention over the PA.

Quote

On top of that, the only ones checking for bands being marked on Birdman jumps was the AZ aircraft.


Was that also a requirement?

Yes. According to the DZO(Burke) the issue had been addressed with the aircraft people. They were supposed to know about it since the manifestor was supposed to annotate the load slip. This was so the pilot knew he had wingsuits on board and would fly on the northern most jump run and Wingsuits would not fly across parallel lines of flight.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

According to the DZO(Burke)

Minor point, I the term DZO stands for Drop Zone Owner usually, Bryan would be more of a DZM (M=Manager)

Quote

Yes, it was after we realized there was an issue. It was announced several times throughout the day,everyday of the convention over the PA.

Sounds like it needs to be something started at the begining of the convention then. A duty for manifest to hold the breifing as part of check in.

Quote

This was so the pilot knew he had wingsuits on board and would fly on the northern most jump run and Wingsuits would not fly across parallel lines of flight.

Sounds like it would work well.....

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[PhreeZone 15]

Quote

On top of that, the only ones checking for bands being marked on Birdman jumps was the AZ aircraft.

I was stopped and had to present my wrist strap to the CASA tent on the 5 or 6 CASA jumps I did. I thought I was going to be able to get one once with out having to take the Alti off (stupid place for me to put the band, right where my wrist strap went ) and Paul himself came up and asked to see it. It was'nt just the the AZ people that were looking. I never tried to jump the King Air since the flocks were better out of the rest, or the balloon or the Biplane (for clear reasons ) in the BM suit.

And the high speed exits out of the CASA's in the BM suits

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[LouDiamond 1]

Well, it sounds like some people(manifestors) were doing the right thing at the other tents then. I can tell you from personal experience though that every time I went to a tent with a student, other than the AZ tent, the manifestor didn't bother to ask and I had to ask them to annotate the load sheet. I'm not talking about once or twice, I'm talking in the ball park of 15-20 times. After that I stopped going to the other tents. I think this year will be smoother since we already know what we are faced with and some of the shortcomings of last year should be delt with beforehand, so it's not an issue. There are a lot of moving parts and variables in this problem and none are a easy fix.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[VectorBoy 0]

Come on people you are in a wingsuit. Just go out last. Go way past the spot. Exit then 45 back and you will have an opening offset from the high traffic central core and to north and you will avoid all aircraft. You are in wingsuits, the organisers are looking for YOUR leadership in the matter. At that event its the only way to go.

Your biggest hurdle would be keeping first jump wingsuiters from hooking back TOO early for a more familiar " above tent city" opening and thats even if they are aware of their navigation.

Open away and to the north and you may open higher and safer ( at least for the first timers and a good habit for bigger flocks too ) Then smoosh in under canopy like the rest of the maggots.

I'm with Phree on what happened last year as far as participation. The AZ crew didn't say a thing until I asked a thing about wingsuits on day one by that early morning Burke was talking it over with BM people at the BM booth. As the boogie progressed even the carolina crew was onboard and helpful. It just takes a while for it to filter down the infrastructure. Definately not in the loop= mullins, the helo's and the biplane. Things might change by this year = hint-hint!
The HERC just dropped every one at 15K so it didn't matter. With the extra 2K in altitude you can just side step the jump runs below you if you know where you are.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Come on people you are in a wingsuit. Just go out last. Go way past the spot.

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that at boogies, WFFC,Eloy or anywhere else where you have parallel jump runs and multiple A/C in trail. There is no doubt in my mind or Chucks that we were well off the line of flight and we still had a clsoe call on 2 occassions where we were getting out last. Extending the spot does not work at large boogies because it jams the pattern as the trail A/C won't drop people until the lead A/C calls off of jump run. As I said before, there is no easy solution to the problem faced at WFFC, If there was we would of implimented it then. This has been an on going work in progress with Burke since WFFC through Eloy and we are still smoothing things out. There is alot that goes on in the air with regards to aircraft(s) operations that is transparent to the people jumping out of them.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[PhreeZone 15]

Lets not forget situations like our own Skybytch and her first flight. Even with two of us Swooping her she still did'nt follow the right flight path and ended up flying right at the end of the normal jump run point. Luckly it was a light load and there were no freefallers.

Best solution coing to mind is the go out last on the right jump run and do a 90 right, fly for a while, 90 right so now you are going parallel to jump run only offset by a ways and finally opening over the hangers. Fly back under canopy over tent city. Lets us have plenty of room for high openings too on first flight students.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Best solution coing to mind is the go out last on the right jump run and do a 90 right, fly for a while, 90 right so now you are going parallel to jump run only offset by a ways and finally opening over the hangers.

Won't work, in fact it's even more dangerous. You would be flying back down the line of flight that the trail A/C is now dropping people on. Instead of flying away from traffic you would be flying at it. One thing we learned quickly last year is that the term A/C in trail does not mean the trail A/C is exactley on the same heading as the lead A/C so the parallel flight pattern can be negated by a pilot who is even off a few degrees over the course of a normal jump run. The hard part of this equation is that we are in the air for close to 2 mins after we leave the A/C. There is no way the aircraft are going to back the times between jump runs off for a small majority. That would mean less loads they could fly and less money earned, you figure which they prefer.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[VectorBoy 0]

Guess what if you are on a collision course with another aircraft on a parallel jump run the danger is the same at the beginning of the jump run as in the end of the jump run. That is if speeds are constant like on a jump run. Unless you go long while the other craft descend after they drop their load.

Now if you can insure an "outside" or northern pass or call it a biplane pass to stay away. Then now you are talking. But thats just the begining, like I said before now you have to keep new flyers from heading BACK for a more familiar deployment area picture.

Good luck on wingsuit specific jump run aircraft. WFFC is one of the most exotic, chaotic, international multi- discipline, fun first communication second events held on the planet and the airspace above it.

[PhreeZone 15]

Ok... make the antenna landing area for Birdmen also and have all the BM fly towards it at the whole fight. Thats over a mile out. Not hard for most BM, but its a feat for starters to get there. Catch a ride back like the Biplane jumpers do. Take the left most jump run in that case.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[GroundZero 0]

I am opposed to the "exit first". As an experienced skydiver, Bird-Man and jump pilot and dzo, I feel confident that "exit first" is a recipe for fatality. I strongly voiced my opinion to Bryan Burke last year, but it would have been more dangerous to change plans midstream and have people, uninformed exiting at both ends of the stick.

It is the Bird-Man's responsibility to stay clear of the following traffic, whether it is the plane 2 minutes behind or the jumpers exiting your same plane after you. Easy enuf for me and other experienced Birds, but when one novice is introduced to the mix... all rules are off.

I was on a (plane) load with a bunch of Bird's including one newbie (my student). It was a huge chain of bad events that lead to a very dangerous situation.... It rained most of the afternoon; the 3:00 load kept getting backed up. We launched just before sunset (1). There were still some clouds in the area (2). Birdmen exit first (3), what a great ride on the ramp to altitude, most comfortable ride in a (plane) ever! Multiple go arounds because of clouds (4)... (refer back to (1)). Pilots seem to make the go-arounds quicker... somewhat tighter radius on each pass. Some jumper helps spot from tailgate (me) and tells loadmaster "there's the town" (5). Loadmaster screams, "Exit, Exit, Exit!! (6). I scream "No this is the wrong side of town", but exit anyway. (7) I line up first out with my newbie (his english is as bad as my spanish...(8), and out we go...

The run-on speed was excessive, my guess is 140-160 kts. (9)... I exit and fly hard above the tall tail (10). My student exits and cartwheels across the sky. (11). When he recovers he has dropped low and is flying directly at the following 100-ish jumpers following. He continues to look at the clouds below and never saw the group of jumpers he was flying through. A FF group had jumpers on all sides of him. (12...look where you're going too.)

As Murphy always lurks... he was jumping a demo canopy (13), one of ours, (doh!)

Deployment was a bit funky... spins up and chop. He lands safely and I try to follow the cutaway shit.... but it's getting dark (see #1, again!)

Everyone survived, everyone checked in at manifest to prove we lived.

Exits at WFFC MUST be last for Bird-Men! Or we should consider no newbies/students. It is far easier to direct the newbie away from traffic that is 2 minutes away than to try to keep the fledglings away from the guys exiting right behind them.

After many conversations with the S&TA and Air-boss at Rantoul last year, expect to exit last and fly outside pattern for the upcoming year. We can fly any aircraft north or south jumprun, communicate with pilots if needed. It is as simple as see the runway, fly away from it and stay outside... and open high if you feel the need, cause we flew way outside of jumprun.



We will exit last at WFFC this year,

Chris

[VectorBoy 0]

Extending the spot does not work at large boogies because it jams the pattern as the trail A/C won't drop people until the lead A/C calls off of jump run.

Quote

I'm sure in theory this is the plan but when chuck and myself saw the Skyvan 1/3 mile behind and a 1000 feet lower than us in the otter on the center jump run. I would have to say sorry you are not going to tell me they hold the van drop if it finds itself up farther than it should be.

I'll put it in perspective for you. Its like twenty different aircraft from four different commands all trying to do their good work on dog show day without talking through a central command but going through there own channels instead.

Fact: that event hosted simultaneous parallel drops. Fact: that event didn't know a wingsuit from tutu at first. Fact: there are aircraft at the event that operate outside of normal channels of co-operation. Fact: when you put 3500 hard partying people + staff in a new place for ten days nothing is "on Rails".

Even Eloys boogie had "ripples" in the aircraft operating norm and thats one command.

You might think of a special long spot like the aircraft turns off jump run and heads north or south say two miles ( less than aminute and a half )and wingsuiters fly back to an offset openning. But really good luck with that idea unless the aircraft is a full load of wingsuiters. For the moneys sake most aircarft operators won't go for that. This would require a whole lot of communication that the event isn't famous for.

• Quote

[VectorBoy 0]

It is as simple as see the runway, fly away from it and stay outside... and open high if you feel the need, cause we flew way outside of jumprun.



We will exit last at WFFC this year,

Chris

[PhreeZone 15]

I'd hate to toss down the restriction, but maybe consider bumping the mins for new flockers to be 500 jumps? I knew the few people I took out on their first flights that had more jumps were more dialed in on their flight paths.

Its going to be interesting... Thank for all the hard work and ideas so far.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com