Body Position Class2/GTi/SF

[unclecharlie109 0]

Hi,

I know body position is best "observed" but can you help me to describe the ideal body position for the
three types of BM suit.

Optimal flying position (specific: best glide distance)

Draft 1 - I am not an expert! Just MO

For all the suits you should "open" the wings fully - but not try to break the stitching.

Classic II - legs straight, toes pointed, elbows rolled forward slightly, chin tucked, shoulders rolled forward, slight de-arch at hips.

GTi - as Classic 2 (?)

SF - legs slightly bent at the knee, with knees forward exposing "leg inlet", elbows rolled forward slightly, hands holding wing tips, chin tucked, shoulders rolled forward, slight de-arch - pushing bum in the air, toes not pointed(?)

Any differences for S3?

My main reason to post is to find opinions on the optimal SF position.

My specific query is knee position on the SF - should I drop my knees or is it better to have straight legs and pointed toes.

I have tried both positions but have not come to any firm conclusions. Maybe Santa will give me a GPS for Christmas ;) I need to do more test jumps to determine the performance difference.

One last question - when you fly for distance, what is your angle of attack relative to the horizontal?
Head high or head low, - 5° + 5° ?

I always thought I flew slightly head low, but after reviewing recent ground footage of a flight I was surprised to see I was actually flying head high like "a landing aircraft" (to quote my friend filming)!

long flights,

jb

baby bird with 100 flights

btw.
I made a quick search on this subject before posting, but apologise if this has been covered
before.

[ManBird 0]

I can only speak for the GTi and the S3. I know what works for me, and it seems to work for others, too. I have S1 flights, but not enough to know the best body position. In general, here's what I recommend:

BASICS:

- Keep wings fully open and extended. There is no reason for your wings to not be as taught as possible.
- Present as much surface area to the ground as possible.
- Present as little surface area to the horizon as possible.
- You aren't moving 100% horizontally, so you should always have a very slight attack relative to the horizon (unless you are going for temporary slow speeds (stalling) by flaring your body).

DETAILS:

- Arm wings extended as far as possible.

- Hands directly to your sides. When viewed from the side, your hands should be even with your back. Your hands should never drop below your torso. As Fordy put it to me once, "Have you ever seen a plane that has wings that droop?" I said, "Yes, the C-5", but that doesn't count.

- Your elbows should go up as much as they possibly can without making the wing untaught. In general, your arms should slope at about a 12° angle with a very, very slight curve... your elbow being the peak of that curve.

- On suits with front deflectors, your forearms should be rotated slightly forwards to feed air into the "nose" of the deflectors, thus pushing air over the wing.

- Your hands should not extend past your wings. This induces horizontal drag. On the S1 or S3, grab the grippers or wingtips. On other suits, just fold your hands back. When viewed from the side, your hands should not drop below the wing.

- Roll your shoulders forwards without changing the position of your hands. People tend to droop their arms when rolling their shoulders forwards. Don't do it. Roll your shoulders right to the point that they don't start going towards each other. As DW once put it (for wingsuits or general tracking), create a channel for the air without losing surface area.

- Head should be down, but just enough to form a continuous shape in your overall profile. Too high prevents air from getting over your back, and can also cause you to put your chest out, thus distorting airflow both above and below you. Too low blocks the channel of air you are trying to create to get airflow underneath you and into your leg wing... it pretty much ruins your lift. If you're looking straight down, your head is in just about the right position.

- Legs are completely straight and as wide as possible, keeping the leg wing fully taught.

- Toes should be pointed, but not outside your legs. Your toes should point directly behind you.

- Body is very, very slightly d-arched. Maybe have about a 9° - 12° angle to your body, with the "joint" of the angle being your hips.

- As far as angle relative to the horizon goes, think of it as riding on your forehead and toes.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[LouDiamond 1]

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My specific query is knee position on the SF - should I drop my knees or is it better to have straight legs and pointed toes.

On the original SF you will find that it is best flown with a slight bend at the knee, butt up, point the toes as best as you can. I have seen(used) both outward and straight back for toe pointing and they both work. You will find that trying to fly it like a GTI or Classic with legs locked out will cause some major stability issues and or less efficient flight. Overall body position isn't as critical in the Classic as it is in the GTI and SFers. The original SF is the hardest of all the suits to fly and get comfortable in due to the small leg wing until you dial it in. The GTI will see max benefit from rotating the elbows towards the sky(up) as opposed to just extending ones arms out. Arm position is critical on the SF and SF3 if you are to make use of the front deflectors and get max performance.

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One last question - when you fly for distance, what is your angle of attack relative to the horizontal?
Head high or head low, - 5° + 5° ?

You will find with time that a normal head position is optimal as looking down will induce a slight dive. Maintain your eyes on the horizon and look ahead, not down. A slight chin curl is almost automatic when punching it out as your body position(dearch)/ shoulder roll puts your chin on your chest.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[MickeN 0]

I get the best speed/glideratio when looking up pointing my nose in the direction of flight, sort of streching my neck towards were I want to go. This works very well for me both on Classic and Skyflyer.

What I've found flying the suits since -99 is that every jumper has his own style, different bodypositions works for different jumpers wearing different suits. The thing is to find out what works for you, don't let anybody tell you you're doing wrong until you've tried it out yourself
/Micke N

[ManBird 0]

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What I've found flying the suits since -99 is that every jumper has his own style, different bodypositions works for different jumpers wearing different suits. The thing is to find out what works for you, don't let anybody tell you you're doing wrong until you've tried it out yourself

I totally agree, but there are definitely some fundamentals that apply all around. What I detailed above, again, is what works for me. Some people get the best glide ratio comspensating a fast fall rate with fatser forward speed. Some people get their best glide ratio by "floating", and compensating their slow forward speed with their slower fall rate. Some people have popcorn on Thanksgiving.

As far as knee position, yes, a bend in the knees will aid in stability. But if you are going for maximum performance, you shouldn't have a bend in the knees. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't be maxed out and stable at the same time. It just takes some practice. You can even fly maxed out with others, but get a LOT of solo practices in first. TALONSKY and I have done many maxed-out two ways... that sounds so wrong.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[TomAiello 25]

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As far as knee position, yes, a bend in the knees will aid in stability. But if you are going for maximum performance, you shouldn't have a bend in the knees.

I think that answer may be different on the Skyflyer v. the S3.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[ManBird 0]

Like I said, "I have S1 flights, but not enough to know the best body position."

Though a bend in the knees at all just doesn't make sense to me in terms of performance. It seems like it would make the half of the leg wing below the knees less effective.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[PhreeZone 15]

Its not a big bend, but a slight scoop to present the intake better.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ManBird 0]

That doesn't really make sense to me, either. The bend at the hips and the angle at which you fall is what puts the intake into position. Bending the knees to present more of the top of the leg wing increases your horizontal profile, thereby inducing drag, and it also distorts the wing, thus limiting the airflow. Fly next to someone with your legs completely straight, in any suit. Then bend your knees. Your forward speed will slow down, and relative to your buddy, you'll really notice.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[TomAiello 25]

I don't really know what the optimum position is. I'm basing my observation on three things:

1) Jari taught a friend of mine to bend his knees slightly when flying the Skyflyer 1, just around the time of it's release.

2) Yuri commented to me that he had to fly his pre-S1 prototype with bent knees to maintain the optimum arm/leg balance, but that he didn't have to do that with his pre-S3 prototype (oddly, he commented that his next generation prototype seemed misbalanced and he thought it flew better with a slight knee bend--I guess that's why they call them prototypes).

3) If you watch the Tomb Raider stunt, you can see that the flyers are using a bent knee position. I know they are flying S3's, but I also think that they both had more S1 than S3 experience at the time the stunt was filmed. I realize that we're talking about a Hollywood stunt here, so there might be other considerations, but I do know that the two flyers are fairly competent.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[kevin922 0]

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I don't really know what the optimum position is. I'm basing my observation on three things:

1) Jari taught a friend of mine to bend his knees slightly when flying the Skyflyer 1, just around the time of it's release.

2) Yuri commented to me that he had to fly his pre-S1 prototype with bent knees to maintain the optimum arm/leg balance, but that he didn't have to do that with his pre-S3 prototype (oddly, he commented that his next generation prototype seemed misbalanced and he thought it flew better with a slight knee bend--I guess that's why they call them prototypes).

3) If you watch the Tomb Raider stunt, you can see that the flyers are using a bent knee position. I know they are flying S3's, but I also think that they both had more S1 than S3 experience at the time the stunt was filmed. I realize that we're talking about a Hollywood stunt here, so there might be other considerations, but I do know that the two flyers are fairly competent.

I think the prototype yuri had was misbalanced with an enormous leg wing, i think that balancing issue has been fixed with the newest prototypes :)

[LouDiamond 1]

Don't over analyze it. You can fly with your legs straight in a SF1 and it will fell like your about to loose it at any moment. You put the slight bend in the knees and you are still maxing it out and don't have the stability issues. The substantially narrow leg seperation makes for a unstable and less forgiving platform. Bending the knees will not hinder you in any way or degrade your flight.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[ManBird 0]

The S1, as I understand it, did have an imbalance between the arms and the legs. I found it better to straighten the legs out and then pull the arms in an inch or two than straighten the arm wings out and bending my knees.

You will usually see people bending their knees when flocking because it is a more stable position, and it is not good to be close to instability while relative to someone else in the air. Flying with a bend in your knees definitely slows your forward speed. If I'm outdriving someone, I bend my knees to back up to them. Kirk (TALONSKY) flies faster forwards than I do in maxed out flight, so he bends his knees a bit to stay back with me. When he straightens his legs out, he shoots forwards like you wouldn't believe.

You can go prove it to yourself this weekend. Fly straight-legged relative to someone else who can fly straight-legged. Bend your knees, and you will back up relative to them. It's a more difficult body position, both technically and physically. If you aren't very, very symmetrical, you get the wobbles. You also need to push the air down a little hard with your legs to maintain a d-arch (your legs get above you and pitch you down otherwise).

I will tell new birds to fly with a bend in their knees when they first start, because it is a safe and stable body position. But I also inform them that they should eventually work towards flying straight-legged. Flying knees slightly bent is recommended for flocking because it gives you room to perform in either direction in order to stay relative. When it comes to covering ground, bending your knees will get you nowhere... well, not as far, anyway.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[ManBird 0]

Jari's bending his knees to stay back with your slow ass. ;)

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[LouDiamond 1]

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Jari's bending his knees to stay back with your slow ass. ;)

I didn't take those pics,someone else did.

You are totaly out in left field my friend. I am well aware of how altering ones legs will adjust ones position. That is not what I am talking about and you are obviously not understanding what is being explained. I suggest you PM Phreezone(eric) and ask him about his experience with the SF1 at WFFC. He was ready to swear off the SF1 after 2 jumps that left him pale when he landed. After talking to him and recommending he bend his knees slightly he came back down with a shit eating grin on his face and he flew that SF1 the remainder of WFFC and eventually bought it.

Every other suit you should have your legs as straight as possible for efficient flight, especially first flight students. To teach them not to do that out the door is counter productive and reinforces bad habits.


Just so you understand, I am talking about a slight bend and not a large one, which is what I think you may be thinking.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[VectorBoy 0]

he came back down with a shit eating grin on his face and he flew that SF1 the remainder of WFFC and eventually bought it.

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I thought the bugger bought a new 3? Or does he have three suits now?

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[LouDiamond 1]

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I thought the bugger bought a new 3? Or does he have three suits now?

I'm pretty sure he bought the SF1 with a white body and yellow wings.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[PhreeZone 15]

I've only got 2 suits. A custom S3 and my Classic2. But I'm looking for some old Classic's to use as loaners.

The S1 was sketchy as shit with out dipping the knees. The imbalence in the leg/arm wings made the suit want to slide all over the place. The only way to be stable was to dip the knees slightly. The vent on the S1 is different then the S3 and it does'nt gte presented cleanly in max flight.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ManBird 0]

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Jari's bending his knees to stay back with your slow ass. ;)

I didn't take those pics,someone else did.

OK... someone's slow ass. :)

Even a slight bend in the knee affects your flight. Over 2.5 - 3 minutes of trying to cover as much ground as possible, a slight bend could result in losing a big chunk of a mile.

Like I just wrote, I do tell new birds that flying straight-legged is the best way to go, right off the bat, but I tell them to bend their knees for stability. Maxed-out flying should be taught but not practiced immediately. The new bird should know how to fly properly, but also have a neutral to fall back on. That neutral position should be practiced first. If you teach someone only how to fly maxed out, they might not figure out what to do when they start potato chipping.

It sounds like Phreezone came down pale-faced on the S1 due to instability, not for overperforming. Bending the knees will result in stability, not a higher performance flight. You helped a stability issue, not a performance one. I don't think one should jump into flying 100% straight-legged on their first Skyflyer flights. It's something to work up to.

When it comes to forward speed, your leg wing is your engine, and the shape of your legs is the gas pedal. Remember, when you see a picture of an expert flying with their knees bent, it is because they are flying with the cameraman!

bend in knees = thicker profile = more drag = slower forward speed = more stable flight

straight legs = thinner profile = less drag = faster forward speed = less stable flight

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[ManBird 0]

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The vent on the S1 is different then the S3 and it does'nt gte presented cleanly in max flight.

Really? I wonder why the tiny holes in my smoking suit work so well, then. The placement of the intake on the S1's tail is less relevant to flight stability than the imbalance in the size of the wings (the arm wings were to big). You can fly the S1 straight-legged just fine... just sweep the arms back a few degree. Either that, or fly straight-legged with a more acute d-arch. Or as it was once put, "Ride a big ball of air".

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[LouDiamond 1]

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Maxed-out flying should be taught but not practiced immediately. The new bird should know how to fly properly, but also have a neutral to fall back on. That neutral position should be practiced first. If you teach someone only how to fly maxed out, they might not figure out what to do when they start potato chipping.

Your statement is a prime example of why the instructor course is needed and taught. A proper ground training covers all the issues one may encounter and alleviates teaching someone how to fly improperly right out the door. Teaching the way you just described just wasted that students first flight and lengthened his learning curve. Teach it right the first time and build good muscle memory in the student from the get go. That way it won't take him 150 jumps to realize he was doing something wrongYour "methodology" needs to be worked on. Otherwise you are doing that first flight student a disservice.

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You helped a stability issue, not a performance one.

You are are totally wrong. Phree went on to jump with myself,chuck, Vector boy and a few others on a experienced Flock where we kicked it out and he was killing it. If you can't fly stable you won't get performance. But hey, I only have like 300+ jumps on the SF1.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[billvon 2,476]

>Maxed-out flying should be taught but not practiced immediately.

I'd agree, and go so far as to say that a more conservative position (i.e. wings not fully extended, knees slightly dropped) would be a better position to make a first flight from.

[ManBird 0]

I built up a bad habit because I had no instruction whatsoever. The last student I had hit fifty in his GTi on his third jump because he did manage to fly straight legged and stay stable. I always show the student what the proper body position is, including straightened legs. The exact phrase I use is, "Keep your legs straight and your toes pointed. if you start to get unstable when you straighten your legs, bend your knees", and follow that up with, "you'll probably be bending your knees a lot at first."

Not teaching what a safe, stable, and neutral body position is and only teach "maxed out" flight is like teaching swooping to an AFF level 1 without teaching them to land straight in. The first flights should be focused on stability and an on-heading throw at pull time, not performance. Performance should not be an issue until flight pattern, practice pulls, and the real pull are all dialed in.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[kevin922 0]

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Jari's bending his knees to stay back with your slow ass. ;)

I didn't take those pics,someone else did.

Is that even Jari flying or is that Scott?

[ManBird 0]

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>Maxed-out flying should be taught but not practiced immediately.

I'd agree, and go so far as to say that a more conservative position (i.e. wings not fully extended, knees slightly dropped) would be a better position to make a first flight from.

Right, flying maxed out should be a goal. Rushing anything in this sport is a bad idea.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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