LouDiamond 1 #27 October 31, 2003 QuoteRushing anything in this sport is a bad idea. I am not talking about the rushing of anything. I'm talking about teaching proper body position on the ground and proper flight in the air. If that proper flight isn't demonstrated the instructor is there to give corrections to the student so that they can learn what it feels like to fly properly. Performance is not even mentioned or expected from a first flight student but the ability to properly fly ones body or to make corrections is. A classic II is the most stable and forgiving suit in the line and that is why it is used for first flight students who tend to fly inefficiently to start with."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #28 October 31, 2003 If you wish to continue this line of conversation with me I strongly recommend you do it in PM as this is not on topic with this thread."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #29 October 31, 2003 Getting back to the thread... you teach students to fly in the "proper" body position which I can only interpret as "optimum". This is pretty much guaranteed instability. What do you teach them to do when they become unstable? If someone who isn't used to flying a wingsuit pushes as hard as they can, it's a flat spin or at least really bad potato chipping waiting to happen. Watch your students really closely. The little things like slightly assymetrical legs, toes pointed in different directions, one knee slightly bent, one arm slightly higher than the other, are kinks that go unnoticed by the student at first, and need experience to be worked out. One leg being an inch higher than the other in maxed out flight can turn into really bad instability if the turn that should be happening in that position is not embraced."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #30 October 31, 2003 QuoteWhat do you teach them to do when they become unstable? Come to the instructor course in Deland or in Eloy and we will be glad to explain everything to you."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #31 October 31, 2003 Steve, On a serious tip, Scott (loudimond) and Chuck sky1 are some of the most proficient Birdman Instructors that I know. Chuck himself was the one that taught me on my original Classic. He also took my on my transition dive from my Classic 1 to my SF3. I went from my classic to the sf3 after something like 20-30(?) jumps. I have been on many flights with Scott and one of his students, One of his students (dagimp) had 13 jumps but flew like someone with alot more jump, some good experiance under his belt. I actually thought Dagimp had many more jumps than he actually had. That alone speaks for Scotts Teaching ability. I also have a video with SCOTT, SM1, AND DAGIPMP in it. Its on the video server called BMcolumbusday... You can see their flying abilities, and see scotts teaching ability for one of his students (dagimp) I mean if Chuck can have me going from a classic to a sf3 in a very low number of jumps, that alone speaks for itself... Check it, Scott and SM1 speak from experience, not conjecture or guessing. They are also highly trained military men, one retired of course. That alone says they have leadership qualities that would be benificial to teaching anyone anything that they had prpper experiance with. I think it was rude and disrespectful not only to Scott, but also to SKYMONKEY1, Scotts teacher. I think there are a few of us here that would ask you to apologize in nice monkey-like fashion and kiss and make up. Being a man myself from the great Northwest (Coos Bay, Oregon "OregEN") I am not sure where you are coming from.Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vesatoro 0 #32 October 31, 2003 Thanks, it was my slow ass. The shots are from Herc2002 where Jari was flying a S3 prototype and I had an old S1. Everyone else flew straight into that big cloud, we played with it :) Vesa BMCI (since Feb 2003) #845 "Fear is the path to the Dark side" (Master Yoda) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmfreefly 0 #33 October 31, 2003 uh.. to get back to the original topic.. Here are some thoughts before I give my 'opinions' ----------------------------------------------------------- a) You aren't going to 'prove' any of this without a wind tunnel, as there is really no good reference -- the person flying along 'observing' has their own flight path. To make an analogy, it is pretty hard to tell who is backsliding when doing RW between just two people. So, all people can relate is observations, feelings, and sometimes (GPS and protrack/netune) data. b) The discussion was about 'optimal glide'. I take that to mean 'furthest distance covered in, say, 9 thousand feet'. Is that the definition everyone is working on? Some might cover that with high fall rate, but high forward ground speed, while someone might cover that with slower fall rate, but slower forward ground speed. c) Different people have different bodies, and therefore different weight to surface area ratios. Fact of the matter is a big, tall, spindly guy will have a much higher surface to weight ratio (for the same relative amount of physical strength). d) Surface area plays a role in both lift and drag. e) We are talking about humans with different ranges of motion, different joints, different proportions. We sometimes can't make a good references to airplanes, since airplanes don't usually have 'joints'.. f) Suits are hand made, and may not be fitted 100% perfectly. Two exact same body types ordering the same suit dimensions, may not get the same suit. Trust me, I have made several jumpsuits/pants, and they are never -exactly- the same, even from the same exact pattern. g) Because we are talking about aerodynamic forces, and we are talking newtonian physics, there is always a tradeoff for lift,drag,etc., just as there is a tradeoff for angle of attack ('float' vs. distance). ok, enough caveats ============== 1) I don't agree with -either- of the camps, straight legged is best vs. bent knees is best. The answer is.... of course.. it depends. It depends on all the factors above. I have found, that dropping the knees a bit (as Jari, Kim, and Rob T (RIP) all had suggested) gives me slower vertical speed, as the leg wing will inflate a little bit better, and it inherently changes my angle of attack somewhat. When I say 'dropping the knees', I dont mean pulling my heels back on my butt, like the Jari pictures that Scott posted. When I say dropping the knees, I actually mean 'frog legging', pushing the knees slightly out and down. This keeps the line of the suit straight when looking at it from the side. Is it the 'optimal' position? I dont know.. I would have to take two exactly the same flights with exactly the same conditions, and see which one covered the most distance. 2) angle of attack has a lot to do with all of these body positions. what works for slow flight, low forward speed, may not work well for fast flight, high forward speed. The 'relative wind' on the suits are different, and therefore the suits exhibit different inflation and different lift. (Gravity does not change though.. 3) Fast forward vs. 'float', well, I haven't figured the best out for me yet... I have had other fliers rocket forward on me, but lose altitude. They fly, deploy, and I pass the spot that they deployed at, at a higher altitude (therefore having covered more total distance). The handful of times I have flow with Yuri, that boy could 'float'! And he would out distance me easily.. So, I think everyone is right, or at least right about things to try. Like someone mentioned earlier, it all depends, and people need to try different things. Right? j Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #34 October 31, 2003 I've sent my apologies to Scott. My ignorance of him is just as big as his ignorance of me and it just got out of hand with the slinging. Who said what first or who's right or wrong doesn't matter to me at this point. Call me stubborn, but I do feel just as entitled to an apology. Then the kissing and making up shall proceed and this shit will be behind us."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #35 October 31, 2003 QuoteSo, I think everyone is right, or at least right about things to try. Like someone mentioned earlier, it all depends, and people need to try different things. Right? Right. As I mentioned earlier, some people get the best glide ratio by comspensating a fast fall rate with faster forward speed and some people get their best glide ratio by compensating their slow forward speed with their slower fall rate. As Robi once pointed out, it takes very, very little to get the wing inflated. If your angle isn't perfect, your wing will still fully inflate. The angle that you feel you need to have your legs at in order to present the intake to the relative wind can be achieved without a bend in the knees. It is more difficult in terms of stability and endurance, but it can be done through practice. Having a bend in the knees causes an uneven airflow. The lower surface of your body is no longer one continuous shape, and the the portion of your leg wing below the knee becomes less effective. While this body position resolves stability issues, I don't think it is the answer to getting the most performance out of the S1 while trying to maintain stability. On the S1, I found that I could fly it straight legged, no problem, so long as my arms were back at a slightly increased angle. An argument might be that you are losing surface area by doing so, but by putting a bend in the knee, the decreased exposure of half of the tail wing and the decrease in forward speed is a bigger sacrifice than sweeping the arm wings back a bit. This is the same principle with wingsuit flying, in general, but it is definitely magnified on the S1 due to the size of the leg wing being a too small for the arm wings. Yes it is more difficult to fly like this, but the payoff is performance. Is there anything in this sport that gives you optimum performance without practice and hard work? There may be some suits where this is difficult to achieve. If it is just plain impossible, then there may be a design flaw in your particular suit. Sometimes the problem is that somebody jumped to the Skyflyer prematurely, and isn't ready for the "twitchiness". I did 175 flights on my GTi before touching a Skyflyer, and was able to quickly resolve stability issues. A lot of people pride themselves on the fact that they started flying a Skyflyer 30, 20, 2 or whatever number of jumps, but also go into the stability issues they had for their first ten flights. Just like canopies, one should master their current suit before moving onto the next one. Somewhere in this forum is the detail on a mod for the S1 that will allow you assume a fully maxed body position without instability, thus "patching" the design flaw."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmfreefly 0 #36 November 3, 2003 Quote As Robi once pointed out, it takes very, very little to get the wing inflated. If your angle isn't perfect, your wing will still fully inflate. The angle that you feel you need to have your legs at in order to present the intake to the relative wind can be achieved without a bend in the knees. It is more difficult in terms of stability and endurance, but it can be done through practice. .... Having a bend in the knees causes an uneven airflow. The lower surface of your body is no longer one continuous shape, and the the portion of your leg wing below the knee becomes less effective. While this body position resolves stability issues, I don't think it is the answer to getting the most performance out of the S1 while trying to maintain stability. Well, it is true that for the wing to inflate, it takes very little air. But, I have to point out that it is certainly easy enough for the wings to not inflate fully or asymetrically. For example, when I first started flying, I found that the 'corners' of my wings were not inflating fully, and giving a little flap. Was the wing inflated? Yes, but, it wasn't giving the 'optimal' lift. By changing my elbows a little bit, and my forearm angle, I was able to get the wing to inflate 'fully'. Point being, there is inflated, and there is fully inflated. A second comment I would make is that 'uneven airflow' is not necessarily bad. A wing generates uneven airflow, causing lift. Can a flat board 'fly' better than a wing? (and here, we are talking glide like a glider, not fly like an airplane). Like I said, everything is a tradeoff. Wings trade drag for lift, and my opinion is that there is a similar tradeoff here. Again, no defined rules. What is 'optimal' for me may not be 'optimal' for you, because of all the things I mentioned earlier. But a great discussion. We need to find a wind tunnel and put the discussion to the test! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevin922 0 #37 November 3, 2003 Quote But a great discussion. We need to find a wind tunnel and put the discussion to the test! Finding one isn't the issue, coming up with the 100K for a day of use would probably be more of an issue :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites robibird 2 #38 November 3, 2003 Hi guys, I went trough the discussion quickly and all I can say is that there is so many interesting things! It is funny to see how many people trying to find ''best'' flying ''mod'' focusing on different things. Few things: Each body has different C.G. placing. This effects the flying style of every WS pilot. In short – what is the best for you does not mean that is the rule for others. That is why we need to practise. Basically BEST forward speed and lift = BEST glide ratio - we can get when we flying in the way were we primarily reducing every peace of drag! (we have to much drag anyway to deal with, cause we are just bunch of heavy -no wing fat creatures who refuse to believe that can't fly) Legs bend or straight?! Well, answer is very simple... STRAIGHT !!- why!! Having legs slightly bend , you will feel more comfortable ( no lateral stability problem, feeling that you falling slower ) but the glide ratio will not be optimal for sure,meaning – you can go faster horizontally ( having better glide ratio) Flying with legs stretched out, meaning that you will struggle with lateral stability constantly, because when flying WS, we all are '' big flat cup surface'' flying 130 – 150 km / h trough the sky but with no vertical stabilizer!!! When we bend the legs we make channel for the air which creating stability instantly, when you relax the arms ( having them more backward) we just adding the vertical ''V'' stabilizer to out body which making all flight much easier!! Keep this in mind and play in the way you like the most. WS flying has differed ways.. ''Maximum performance flying'' - not very social at all ''Flock WS flying'' – nice but not really the place were you can say '' I was in ''max'' position''.. because as long you looking around instead of DOWN you are not flying max Pozdrav RobibirdRobert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jari 0 #39 November 4, 2003 Why?Jari "Hey, don't be afraid, ever. Because, it's just a ride." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jari 0 #40 November 4, 2003 Hi Tom, 3) If you watch the Tomb Raider stunt, you can see that the flyers are using a bent knee position. I know they are flying S3's, Actually they were S.1's and since the nature of S.1 was more unstable than any other suit we made we found out that the optimum performance with the greatest stability was achieved with slightly bent knees. For the max performance bending the knees doesn't help but the flight can be extremely unstable and in the end your performance drops dramatically if you fall on your back for example. It has happened to me when I totally maxed out and i would not wish that to happen to anybody during a BASE flight or near pull time for example.Jari "Hey, don't be afraid, ever. Because, it's just a ride." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites robibird 2 #41 November 4, 2003 Hm, I wonder why you have streched legs on your icon picture?! RRRRobert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevin922 0 #42 November 4, 2003 QuoteHm, I wonder why you have streched legs on your icon picture?! RRR Oh you two break it up :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jari 0 #43 November 5, 2003 I am not understanding your question?Jari "Hey, don't be afraid, ever. Because, it's just a ride." 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kevin922 0 #37 November 3, 2003 Quote But a great discussion. We need to find a wind tunnel and put the discussion to the test! Finding one isn't the issue, coming up with the 100K for a day of use would probably be more of an issue :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robibird 2 #38 November 3, 2003 Hi guys, I went trough the discussion quickly and all I can say is that there is so many interesting things! It is funny to see how many people trying to find ''best'' flying ''mod'' focusing on different things. Few things: Each body has different C.G. placing. This effects the flying style of every WS pilot. In short – what is the best for you does not mean that is the rule for others. That is why we need to practise. Basically BEST forward speed and lift = BEST glide ratio - we can get when we flying in the way were we primarily reducing every peace of drag! (we have to much drag anyway to deal with, cause we are just bunch of heavy -no wing fat creatures who refuse to believe that can't fly) Legs bend or straight?! Well, answer is very simple... STRAIGHT !!- why!! Having legs slightly bend , you will feel more comfortable ( no lateral stability problem, feeling that you falling slower ) but the glide ratio will not be optimal for sure,meaning – you can go faster horizontally ( having better glide ratio) Flying with legs stretched out, meaning that you will struggle with lateral stability constantly, because when flying WS, we all are '' big flat cup surface'' flying 130 – 150 km / h trough the sky but with no vertical stabilizer!!! When we bend the legs we make channel for the air which creating stability instantly, when you relax the arms ( having them more backward) we just adding the vertical ''V'' stabilizer to out body which making all flight much easier!! Keep this in mind and play in the way you like the most. WS flying has differed ways.. ''Maximum performance flying'' - not very social at all ''Flock WS flying'' – nice but not really the place were you can say '' I was in ''max'' position''.. because as long you looking around instead of DOWN you are not flying max Pozdrav RobibirdRobert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jari 0 #39 November 4, 2003 Why?Jari "Hey, don't be afraid, ever. Because, it's just a ride." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jari 0 #40 November 4, 2003 Hi Tom, 3) If you watch the Tomb Raider stunt, you can see that the flyers are using a bent knee position. I know they are flying S3's, Actually they were S.1's and since the nature of S.1 was more unstable than any other suit we made we found out that the optimum performance with the greatest stability was achieved with slightly bent knees. For the max performance bending the knees doesn't help but the flight can be extremely unstable and in the end your performance drops dramatically if you fall on your back for example. It has happened to me when I totally maxed out and i would not wish that to happen to anybody during a BASE flight or near pull time for example.Jari "Hey, don't be afraid, ever. Because, it's just a ride." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robibird 2 #41 November 4, 2003 Hm, I wonder why you have streched legs on your icon picture?! RRRRobert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #42 November 4, 2003 QuoteHm, I wonder why you have streched legs on your icon picture?! RRR Oh you two break it up :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jari 0 #43 November 5, 2003 I am not understanding your question?Jari "Hey, don't be afraid, ever. Because, it's just a ride." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
