Cross Braced CRW

[Spizzzarko 0]

Good morning,

1. I'm starting to get into CRW. Here's the hum-dinger of it... I'm using a 104FX (loaded at 2.0), and a 98 VX (loaded at 2.2) as my mains. I have pinned a Stilletto 150 (loaded at 1.3) with the 104. I was at the edge of my controll range and about to fall out of the sky, but we pulled it off none the less. I have routinely done 2 stacks with my 104 and a stilletto 135, but we havn't made it into a bi-plane yet. Just this weekend we did another 2 stack with my 98vx and a 104fx (loaded at 1.8). Are there a lot of people out there doing this with these types of canopy's? If so what problems have you experienced?

2. Let's talk about my approach. I'm setting up a little low and behind the person I'm going to pin, and then slowly hitting the rears to put my center cell on my buddies ass. This seems to work nicely as long as he is out of the brakes and is not turning.
What do you guy's think about this approach, and is there a better way to do it?

3. Lines and their cascades. AS you may very well know, these canopies have cascaded lines made of 550lbs Vectran. In one instance the guy I pinned got a little low and got his shoe caught up in the right inside A cascade. He started to kick it around to get it loose, and it caused some turning do to his harness inputs. I flew through it and we got it resolved. I want to start bringing the top person down to me, but I'm worried about the cacades. I'm thinking about changing the two inside A's and B's to non-cascades, and using 1050lbs vectran line for the A's and 550lbs for the B's. Thoughts?

3. Thanks for your time, and your future suggestions. That's all I have to say about that.

[PhreeZone 15]

PLEASE if your just learning CRW do it on canopies that are made for it. Lightnings, Prodgies, even PD 7 cells are a better bet then any 9 cell. Vectan is a BAD idea for CRW. Dacron is the best bet. Microline can fillet a leg fast, Vectran even faster in a wrap.

Call PD up and get some Lightnings sent out to you for a few weekends. Its amazing how much faster you can learn things with the right tools.

One note on your current setup. Avoid planes. Its very easy for your trailing pilot chutes to entangle and thats a double cutaway. I've seen it happen once before already.

Your approach to pin seems to be right so far.

There are two types of CRW Dawgs.. those that have been wraped and those that will be. On CRW canopies wraps are scary enough... on pocket rockets they are the thing of nightmares.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rehmwa 2]

This sounds more like a stunt than CrW with those canopies (fun for swooping). It's not the size of the canopy, it's the type. (The current CrW teams I believe are jumping 110- 120 sq ft.) Eventually, your buddy, and likely you, will get cut up good trying it with these canopies.

Go demo or borrow some real CrW rigs and see how it goes. If you can't find the current CrW models, there's always people out there with old Glidepath canopies, Furies, Pegasus's, etc.

You'll also be up there longer and can be more aggressive with the other canopies.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[chuckbrown 0]

it can be done with these canopies but it isn't pretty. i would only do it if you already know what you're doing. out in richmond this year 3 of the dawgs did a jump with 4 "unnamed prototype" high performance canopies (if I remember correctly they were 85 or 89 square feet & loaded to 1.9) the plan was for the 3 lightnings to form a stack onto which the 4 pocket rockets would dock. we formed the 7 stack, but I'm glad I was on top (no. 2). these guys would come screaming into the formation and pound their canopies around the bottom jumper. the first one docked rough but successfully. the later jumpers would hit and go spinning out into their lines before trying it again. there was even a nice wrap which fortunately was cleared without a cut away. everybody eventually got in, but what a show. definitely a jump i'll always remember. btw, these guys were all very good flyers (way to go SteveO).

having said that it can be done, i wouldn't "learn" CRW on these kinds of canopies. they are way to unforgiving of a mistake. A good CRW pilot can do CRW with any canopy, but a good CRW pilot also knows what not to do. When learning CRW, unless you're with a veteran CRW jumper, you can easily do something that will result in bad times.

The Dark Side is a beautiful place. find a canopy that will help you enjoy it's beauty.

[faulknerwn 36]

Please use real CRW canopies - especially for learning. Its much more dangerous on what you're doing because they are so unforgiving.

After that, definitely don't plane these canopies. Pilot chute entanglements are one thing, and I can bet that the bottom canopy will dance widely. Not safe.

Thirdly - what little CRW I've done with cross-braced tells me that cross-braced canopies are NOT compatible with Stilletto's and Cobalts and the ilk. Thir descent rate is extreme comparatively and they don't work. If you insist on learning CRW on this sort of canopies (which I HIGHLY recommend against) - use 2 Stilllettos or 2 cross-braced but not a mix. And definitely don't plane them...

[rehmwa 2]

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it can be done with these canopies but it isn't pretty. i would only do it if you already know what you're doing. .

Been wrapped once in microline - never again and I do know what I'm doing

{{{I bet it was very cool anyway though }}}

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[craddock 0]

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Thirdly - what little CRW I've done with cross-braced tells me that cross-braced canopies are NOT compatible with Stilletto's and Cobalts and the ilk. Thir descent rate is extreme comparatively and they don't work.

I understand that compatible may be a relative word , and since the majority of my CRW jumps have been done on highly loaded 7 cell x braced canopies- I don't have much to compare relative to.

I have an FX85 that I have done CRW many times with, and it has flown fairly stable with everything from a pd190 to a Xaos 95. There are several Stiletto jumps in there as well and they always flew well once in a Bi-plane. While the side by side can be somewhat tricky, we have gone from the (offset)bi-plane right to the downplane when attempting it. We have landed the 85/95 combo (bi-plane of course) I have spent a lot of time watching pilot chutes and have never seen a problem with ours.
This is not to say that this is a good idea or should be attempted by everyone, but my FX flies great with most of the canopies I have played with. I normally fly a Xaos 27 and have done a few stacks with it, but I kept the FX to use for planned CRW jumps.
Be careful and realize what you are getting into.

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[sikorsky 0]

Wherever you were in your controls when you docked --you should stay there. If you let go of your controls and expect it to fly you'll eventually have problems. The canopy can't get relative to the other on it's own. The two become one flying machine that either is or is not going to fly like you expect it to.

Transitioning to planes, etc increases risk if the canopies are not loaded the same or do not fly the same.

You sound like a good flyer --learn to top dock. It's worth it. Check out www.dqnt.com/acc.htm and use PD Lightings until you can do the dives properly.

[craddock 0]

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Wherever you were in your controls when you docked --you should stay there. If you let go of your controls and expect it to fly you'll eventually have problems.

Not if you both let go of the controls evenly. When doing preplanned docks on my buddies St120 or Xaos 95, we have left the brakes set on the top canopy until in the Bi-plane. This way we are able to get together very quickly after opening with little altitude loss. Bottom person can easily fly in and dock while the top person has his hand free to help if needed. We like to do a line dock right into a bi-plane by having enough lift available to fly it up at the last second.
The Top dock is something else I will consider, but probably not on his Xaos(HMA).
Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[sikorsky 0]

...and expect it to fly you'll eventually have
problems.


The keyword here was 'eventually'.

I've done a lot of work with Velocity's, Vengence's and Excaliburs --(10 years ago).

Good luck and keep the nose of the bottom canopy from pushing too hard against the top guy's lines --by keeping your hands in the toggles and watching it.

[PhreeZone 15]

I used to think that my Jedei was stable in CRW till I got lots more Lightning experience. The ability to touch both the front and back of the same cell and not have the canopy collapse... now thats stability.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[relyon 0]

CRW with cross braced or high performance canopies? I'll watch. Between the high aspect ratios, elliptical plaform, micro lines, and pilot chutes, a stack wrap will be one hell of show I'd rather not be part of.

There's a photo pictorial on pp. 40-41 of Oct 2003 Parachutist. The photo on the top left shows the right way to do CRW. The remaining pics, IMO, show less than ideal conditions. The grips on the the stack docks on the top and bottom right on p 41 are incorrect at best and could cause a worse problem. You wouldn't find my feet in those lines.

Bob

[indyz 1]

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The grips on the the stack docks on the top and bottom right on p 41 are incorrect at best and could cause a worse problem.

Would you mind elaborating? The bottom dock is off-center, but I can't tell what's wrong with the top picture.

Due to a printing error, I don't even have page 40 to see the right way. Grrr.

[relyon 0]

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Would you mind elaborating? The bottom dock is off-center, but I can't tell what's wrong with the top picture.

Both span two cells/linegroups instead of one. I can't tell what type of lines are on the bottom canopy, but I'll bet it's cascaded microline like that in the upper pic. That stuff snags on just about anything it can.

Bob

[andy2 0]

i've wanted to do 9 cell no contact crew. I dont have a high performance canopy at all but I think it would be a great way to learn canopy control.

Some of the stuff the PD factory team does no contact wise is really cool to watch (and looks like fun to do too).

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[darkvapor 0]

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i've wanted to do 9 cell no contact crew. I dont have a high performance canopy at all but I think it would be a great way to learn canopy control.

Make sure you get a good briefing from a CRW dog or a canopy control instructor first. You might not have the intention of contact, but shit happens.

You need to know how to approach another canopy.
(The closure rate on two canopies heading into each other is deadly).
You need to know what to do in case you get wrapped or entangled.
You need to get briefed on how to use different control inputs to successfully fly next to another canopy.

Thats just the beginning.

Let us not forget what happened in Dallas late last year when two people tried to do "no contact" crw.

[andy2 0]

thanks for the info. I dont plan on doing that stuff until I have quite a few regular crew jumps under my belt.

Im not sure if Im ready for regular crew yet though.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...