Was this hypoxia?

[BlindBrick 0]

After a wingsuit jump today I pitched at 4000 ft and had a hard opening that immediately transitioned into spinning line twists. I found myself spinning under canopy on my back and began to kick out of the line twist while getting my arms unzipped. I have no idea of the number of rotations that occurred while this was taking place but I got my arms free and reached for my risers and noted that my alti was showing 2800 ft. My harddeck is 2500 and I could see that I still had 3 line twists and decided that I couldn't clear then in 300 ft so began my EP's, and then things got weird.

I teach all the fjc's at my dz, I am literally teaching EP's multiple times every single week (and have done so for several years now), furthermore not only have I had a number of cutaways in the past but I'm also a rigger, so I have zero gear fear issues when it comes to chopping. Nor do I have any trouble with remaining calm while dealing with a bad situation. Despite all that, as I put my hands on my handles, I realized that I was very confused and literally could not remember which handle to pull first. I also noted that everything felt surreal and got distracted by the feel of the soft reserve ripcord handle under my finger tips. I must have stroked that handle three or four times before /I pulled it first./ The thing was that it was a weak pull and all I did was take the slack out of the system. I had to pull it a second time to actually activate the reserve and even after that first pull it did not occur to me that I had pulled the wrong one. It was only after I stared at the ripcord in my hand for a bit that I realized that I hadn't felt myself separate from my canopy. Still feeling no fear or concern whatsoever, it occurred to me that I should pull the other handle if I wanted the canopy to go away which seemed like a good idea for some reason that I couldn't quite pinpoint. So I did just into time to execute a canopy transfer.

Within a couple of seconds of my reserve opening I was feeling normal other than being very deeply disturbed by what had happened and wondering how in the fuck I could forget something as basic as EP's.

At first I was willing to believe that I simply had the mother of all fuck ups but then I remembered the euphoria and getting distracted by the texture of the handle. That got me to thinking about the possibility of hypoxia. When I thought about it, I could remember a little bit of grey on the edge of my vision, but I had dismissed it because the only experience I had with greying out was that it was a rapidly moving tunnel that narrowed my visual field during an extremely hard opening. I was wondering if this might have just been a case of the grey out taking long enough that I started to get hypoxic before that point?

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[jsaxton 0]

Were you deprived of O2? what altitude did you exit at?
Hypoxia depends on may factors; altitude, time at altitude, smoking, personal tolerance, hydration, hangover,...

Without an O2 meter on you there is now way to tell for sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoxia_(medical)

[pchapman 261]

I dunno but it sounds plausible.

We're talking about hypoxia in the brain due to acceleration (not high altitude). Acceleration reduces blood pressure and blood pressure in the brain (Although it may be at least partially counteracted by increased heart rate, other automatic body responses to low blood pressure, or conscious straining).

Even if the amount of g's is well short of the amount to cause g-induced loss of consciousness, it could cause serious cognitive problems. I have no citations to support this.

Remember also that the g loading sufficient to put someone 'asleep' is much lower for someone who is relaxed (4 g being common?) than for the test case of a fighter pilot in good physical condition with specific straining techniques.

I wonder if it would be useful for skydivers to learn something about the concept of straining against g-loading, and good ways to do so.

Other factors could also affect reasoning during a spinning mal, such as distraction, disorientation or vertigo.

All these factors together could be what has led to incorrect actions like delayed cutaways. This mental aspect would be in addition to the simple physical problem of moving under higher g loads.

[LouDiamond 1]

It sounds like you experienced what is known as Stagnant Hypoxia. It is an O2 deficiency due to poor circulation of the blood or poor blood flow. Examples of this condition are high "G" forces, prolonged sitting in one position or hanging in a harness,cold temperatures , and positive pressure breathing.

In your case it sounds like you may have experienced high "G"s that caused the symptoms you mentioned. Mental confusion, poor judgement, muscle incoordination, euphoria and tunnel vision are just a few of the symptoms of hypoxia and it sounds like you experienced several of them, which is not uncommon but these also tend to be personal symptoms, so keep that in mind just in case there is a next time.


One method taught to military jumpers who think they are suffering from hypoxia while under canopy is called grunt breathing and it is used to increase the pressure of oxygen in the thoracic cavity. This is aimed more at those doing a HAHO from high altitudes and whose O2 bottle has run out of O2 or is experiencing an O2 equipment malfunction.

GRUNT BREATHING

1. Tense all muscles and abdomen continuously
2. Quick inhalation
3. Expel air through pursed lips for 3 seconds
4. Repeat cycle
5. Remember you are trying to build up pressure within your chest.


It is anyones guess as to whether or not it was stagnant hypoxia but seeing how you pitched at 4k and were spinning until 2800k, it's possible you reached a few "G"s in that time. My concern is why you felt the need to try and fix a canopy that had you in a spin on your back that was strong enough to cause you to experience these symptoms. An opening that fast and violent with line twists that put you on your back in a wingsuit should have you going immediately to EPs instead of trying to unzip and kick out. I wasn't there but your description of the event leads me to believe it was not a case of a slowly spinning canopy with line twists where one would take the time to unzip their arms and kick out of line twists. Perhaps this incident will cause you to reevaluate your priorities when faced with a similar situation when wingsuiting in the future. Typically speaking, anything that is spinning so fast that it puts you on your back is simply safer to immediately cutaway than to try and fight/fix it, especially in a wingsuit. Be safe, not sorry is the way I look at it. Glad to hear you were able to deal with this and for sharing your experience. Stay safe.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Krip 2]

Based on a couple of times in a altitude chamber the symptons you describe sounds like Hypoxia.

In the chamber we were required to go off oxygen and do basic drills like counting backwards on a piece of paper under the observation of a buudy, one who can direct you to go back on the gas just in case you don't realize your going to pass out.

I don't know how to spell, but I know how to count, I was surprised to see my counting skills get worse in a short period of time. Don't recall the altitude but it was high enough.

One Jump Wonder

[pchapman 261]

Quote

It sounds like you experienced what is known as Stagnant Hypoxia. It is an O2 deficiency due to poor circulation of the blood or poor blood flow.

Good point. I should have picked up on the harness issue too.

This may be especially relevant to bigger people, where the pressure on the leg straps will be more and might more easily be at a level where blood flow is impeded when under a spinning canopy.

Reduction of circulation from leg straps affects the whole body, reducing what the heart has available to easily pump out -- to everything including the brain. It isn't just a matter of whether one's toes get a bit numb from hanging in the harness.

If I recall correctly (and from your username), BlindBrick, you're a big guy, an 'anvil' in RW.

Edit:
I think this hypoxia thing from g's will be relevant to older jumpers too, in those cases where an old jumper spins in without chopping or doing so in time. When old, one's heart, arteries, vagus reflex, or whatever, may no longer be able to respond as well in maintaining blood pressure under a stress like high g's.

[BlindBrick 0]

Quote

One method taught to military jumpers who think they are suffering from hypoxia while under canopy is called grunt breathing

The embarrassing thing is I know what G grunts are and actually used them the other time I was greying out, it just didn't occur to me that I was in that severe of a high G situation this time.

Quote

My concern is why you felt the need to try and fix a canopy that had you in a spin on your back that was strong enough to cause you to experience these symptoms. An opening that fast and violent with line twists that put you on your back in a wingsuit should have you going immediately to EPs instead of trying to unzip and kick out.

I suspected I would need to cutaway from the moment the opening began to twist because if I get more then two linetwists while wingsuiting, it's all but impossible for me to kick out of them because normally my canopy is ridicously docile (straight and level) in twists to the point of resisting kicking out especially with the extra drag of the ws fabric.

However, I jump an old style Supermach with the velcro release (instead of a traditional wingcutaway system) that I can not manhandle open so in order to do anything I have to open up the arms at the wrist. I said unzip but in actuality it was more of unsnap the zipper from the thumb loop then peel the velcro from that point up. That takes time, so while I was doing that, I was kicking out to see if I could get lucky with the twists.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

I suspected I would need to cutaway from the moment the opening began to twist because if I get more then two linetwists while wingsuiting, it's all but impossible for me to kick out of them because normally my canopy is ridicously docile (straight and level) in twists to the point of resisting kicking out especially with the extra drag of the ws fabric.

Have you ever tried to push the risers together, close yourself small and just let the canopy spin out the twist itself if the tiwst is in front of you and not behind your head/neck?

I fly a Cobalt @WL 1.8. It works for me better than fighting.

[jerolim 7]

Do a search for Coriolis illusion and vertigo.
Condition happens during spin on one axis and when you tilt your head down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_illusions_in_aviation

Could you be expiriencing this ?

[Skyper 0]

If I were you, I would pay a visit to GP...

[d100965 0]

Maybe a visit to the GP is warranted....
Please bear in mind that your own health and physical condition would have a lot to do with this also...
Do you smoke?
Are you overweight?
Did you skip a meal?
Do you do any exercise? (that's real exercise like running or Squash, not walking or Zumba)
Did you drink 3 Espresso's and 2 Redbulls prior to jumping?

[CornishChris 5]

A nameless friend of mine had something similar. 1500+ jumps, on a JVX79 with spinning line twists. He managed to take his a step further and pulled silver instead of cutaway. he then fought for a while trying to work out why his risers hadn't released. Eventually (after flat line had stopped) he pulled what he thought was his reserve as a last ditch attempt to live and ended up under his reserve with twists having finally cutaway. He put that don to the G force/hypoxia. It was not his first cutaway and he was unable to come up with any other explanation. he was on the next load under a borrowed canopy!

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[ufk22 32]

+1
This has been discussed before in these forums, but to repeat it.
Trying to deal with linetwisted/possible toggle fire on highly loaded (or even moderately loaded) ZP canopies is NOT the same as it was in the old 7 cell F111 days.
If you're on your back and spinning, especially if you're in a wingsuit, what do you do??? (just like quizzing a FJC student).
Look red, reach red, .........

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

If you're on your back and spinning, especially if you're in a wingsuit, what do you do??? (just like quizzing a FJC student).
Look red, reach red, .........

Wow, we got a silver bullet here.

I'd rather use common sense. Fight and try to solve what I can and let go what I can't.

Most of my line twists were in front of me. The rest solved itself without my kicking, I let 2 go already.