chileanXaos 0 #1 August 30, 2004 Yesterday I was doing some freefly with a friend , and while I was head down , one of the velcro riser covers catched air and opened , making it short , when I looked at my altimeter to open I saw one toogle wraped around my arm , I managed to clear it and opened my main , the opening wasn`t really good , but i managed it . for freefly ,old racers are not good , the speed that you reach , is not for old racers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alanab 0 #2 August 30, 2004 with your jump numbers, you'd think that would have been something you already knew freeflying=good old velcro rigs+freeflying=bad be careful out there Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kaerock 1 #3 August 30, 2004 A friend of mine recently upgraded to a Wings container after consistent problems with things coming out of his Racer while freeflying. He got some great video, though. -R QuoteYesterday I was doing some freefly with a friend , and while I was head down , one of the velcro riser covers catched air and opened , making it short , when I looked at my altimeter to open I saw one toogle wraped around my arm , I managed to clear it and opened my main , the opening wasn`t really good , but i managed it . for freefly ,old racers are not good , the speed that you reach , is not for old racers. You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #4 August 31, 2004 ANY rig with old velcro and/or worn out tuck tabs will have the tendency to come open while FFing. Proper preventive maintence is essential."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites egons 0 #5 September 1, 2004 My friend! You should be very careful in the manner you post. The last thing you should be doing is bashing a manufacturers equipment! The issue really at hand is that you were foolish enough to freefly with a system that has Velcro! Think about things before you post! With your jump numbers you should be in the position to know better and certainly your seniors should have warned you of the dangers involved. Possibly you should invest in gear that is suited to your skydiving Egon "Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 321seeya 0 #6 September 3, 2004 He is right, The Racer doesnt just suck for freeflying...It Just Sucks... BASE 3:16 - Even if you are about to land on a cop - DONT FORGET TO FLARE! Free the soul -- DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites grega 0 #7 September 3, 2004 And they're ugly too "George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Levin 0 #8 September 3, 2004 QuoteHe is right, The Racer doesnt just suck for freeflying...It Just Sucks... who is right? Egon didn't say Racers suck. Egon said... QuoteYou should be very careful in the manner you post. The last thing you should be doing is bashing a manufacturers equipment! or were you reffering to chileanxaos, whom also did not say Racers suck. Chileanxaos said... Quotefor freefly ,old racers are not good , the speed that you reach , is not for old racers. What kind of personal experience are you basing yor opinion on? Or are you just jumping on a bandwagon? For freefly the Racer is my favorite rig. For swooping the Racer is my favorite rig. For serious CRW I would stick a sock around the pop-top or get a different rig. The new Racers are velcro free and have an excellent tuck tab system. FWIW, I perfer the velcro on the sides. The new Racer 2k3 is in my opinion one of the ugliest rigs I've seen. IMO, it's a good example of what happens when you mess with perfection. If I ever had to switch to a different brand of container I would go with a Vector Micron or a Wings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jskydiver22 0 #9 September 4, 2004 I dont really think that he was bashing the product, he was just sayin that they arent good for freeflying and sharing his experience with them. Im gonna have to agree with 321seeya's comment. --I don't even know enough to know that I dont know-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 321seeya 0 #10 September 4, 2004 My opinion is based on the Racer Model I had. An SST (Which has come to mean "Struggle, Struggle - Thump) This rig failed me when I needed it the most. I had an emergency situation (Severe Lineover) and after cutting away my main, COULD NOT get the reserve deployed. I pulled as hard as I could with BOTH HANDS. The impossible pull was caused by the cable housing shifting and causing the pin to lock in place (do some research on this and you will see a pattern of this happening with this model) The only thing that saved my ass on this jump was the cypres. I ALMOST sent it to get its 4 year the week before, but decided to jump it till the actual repack date. (unit was still current by 2 weeks) So I think I can back up the statement that "Racers Just Suck. BASE 3:16 - Even if you are about to land on a cop - DONT FORGET TO FLARE! Free the soul -- DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brits17 0 #11 September 7, 2004 ... or new ones for that matter. This weekend a local jumper with a brand new racer had his riser cover come untucked during freefall, causing his risers to be exposed and freely flying in the wind. He deployed at 6.5k. No injury or incident, but it apparently didn't look pretty and he got away unscathed. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #12 September 7, 2004 QuoteThis weekend a local jumper with a brand new racer had his riser cover come untucked during freefall, causing his risers to be exposed and freely flying in the wind. And this has NEVER happened to other containers either has it? Get for real, jumping old gear, any old gear has it's inhereant draw backs. Even on new gear this is not unheard of regardless of who manufacturers the equipment."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brits17 0 #13 September 7, 2004 I didn't say never. I just gave one example of a few problems that have occured with this manufacturer over the past several months. I could list more, but this isn't a bash session. I will pm you instead if you want. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Levin 0 #14 September 7, 2004 Quote... or new ones for that matter. This weekend a local jumper with a brand new racer had his riser cover come untucked during freefall, causing his risers to be exposed and freely flying in the wind. He deployed at 6.5k. No injury or incident, but it apparently didn't look pretty and he got away unscathed. this incident in question is hardly worth mentioning and i can't understand why you bothered bringing up. the incident happened to a staff member that is on almost every single load. he uses packers to pack his rig. the packer is always on a 15 minute call with his rig and often has to take it to the loading area. the packers also have a gazillion other rigs to pack including tandems, teams and fun jumpers. needless to say the packer has to pack his rig in a super fast hurry. in freefall the right tuck tab came undone a small part of the riser came out. not enough to cause a problem, no where near enough riser out to get around his arm. in fact the design of the side flaps prevented the riser from coming out anymore than just off the top of the shoulder. yah it startled the guy cuz it had never happened before, but it certainly was not a life threatening incident. being a rigger and a professional you should have a better clue than jumping on a bandwagon such as this. i don't know where you got your facts but i heard the story straight from that person's mouth. Brit, you know me and my gear. How bad do my rigs suck??? i'd really like to know since i jump them every weekend (w/out incident). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Levin 0 #15 September 7, 2004 QuoteMy opinion is based on the Racer Model I had. An SST (Which has come to mean "Struggle, Struggle - Thump)....So I think I can back up the statement that "Racers Just Suck. Are all racers sst's? if they aren't the same rig as yours but have the same name does that still mean they all suck?? just trying to understand your logic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #16 September 7, 2004 Quoteshould have a better clue than jumping on a bandwagon such as this Kettle... black... or something like that. Come on levin, you know better. You have a teeny tiny rig that doesn't have any issues. That does not represent each and every rig out there, especially one of larger size. I can and have packed my own and other rigs in well under 4 minutes. Your argument on packing fast does not hold up. I'm not here to bash the product so don't think I'm here to do that. However, risers down the arm with lines or a toggle showing ... is bad. My experience with that exact scenario is not limited to Racers by the way. The worst offenders do happen to be the old Style Racer though. As far as the impossible pull scenario described above is concerned. The reserve ripcord routing and the method of holding the Pop Top down hasn't changed. I know how to pack your rig so the handle is hard or impossible to pull. If you'd like, I will show you. Now for the original poster or anyone who cares. Read the Title of the thread. Dont freefly with old racers That has nothing to do with new Racers. The guy is one hundred percent accurate with this statement. I've seen only a couple new Racers (including the one mentioned above) so I will reserve judgement until further examination. Don't freefly in old Racers is what the original poster said. I agree. Good day.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chileanXaos 0 #17 September 7, 2004 Hello I have been looking at my post to see how people are feeling about it, I dont think freeflying with old racers , even with new velcro is good , So if you are doing it I dont recomend it . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #18 September 8, 2004 QuoteI dont think freeflying with old racers , even with new velcro is good , So if you are doing it I dont recomend it The new ones are completely velcro free unless you ask for it. As seen HERE"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Levin 0 #19 September 8, 2004 QuoteYou have a teeny tiny rig that doesn't have any issues. That does not represent each and every rig out there, especially one of larger size. I maybe wrong but I believe the rig in question that Brit refers to holds a Cobalt 135. Small by some standards, not mine. The rig Brit refers to is definetly not a big rig. QuoteI can and have packed my own and other rigs in well under 4 minutes. Your argument on packing fast does not hold up i think it does. i think it's very possible for a packer to get in such a hurry that they don't pull the riser down tight to the bottom of the main pack tray. instead they close the riser cover of a ton of riser slack. maybe the tuck tab doesn't close all the way. maybe the air blew it open in freefall since all the slack made the tuck tab want to come open anyway. speculation. but i think it's what most likely happened. Quoterisers down the arm with lines or a toggle showing ... is bad i agree. it's bad. i didn't say it wasn't but i don't think it's as bad as most people do or as bad as other possible scenarios that could cause a malfunction or injury. I don't think it is so bad that I would damn a manufacturer to hell for it. QuoteThe worst offenders do happen to be the old Style Racer though. In my experince the worst offenders have been Vector II's. QuoteAs far as the impossible pull scenario described above is concerned. The reserve ripcord routing and the method of holding the Pop Top down hasn't changed. I know how to pack your rig so the handle is hard or impossible to pull. If you'd like, I will show you. Thanks for the offer but i know all about that. My red/yellow racer came from the manufacturer with a 52 lb. pull. Now, no one has ever accused me of being muscular but I can tell you for fact from experience that a 52 lb. pull is nothing. I've never pulled a reserve handle on an old racer, but i have pulled mine twice in actual use and several times on the ground with a spring whenever it gets re-packed. The b/w racer i had before pulled 54 lbs with a spring. The late Tommy Thompson, my former rigger, fixed the problem on my red/yellow racer. I never had to use one of his pack jobs in an emergency, but on the ground after his first pack, it pulled 22 lbs. The pack job itself looked just as good as the manufacturers and the pop top was not loose. I think the hard pull might be common with all Racers, Power Racers for sure. But I suspect it is mostly the rigger's fault and not the container's. QuoteNow for the original poster or anyone who cares. Read the Title of the thread. Dont freefly with old racers That has nothing to do with new Racers. The guy is one hundred percent accurate with this statement. I have an old Racer. I'm not exactly sure how old it is but the reserve in it is an old 5-cell 175 if that gives any indication. The rig is huge and much wider than I am. If Brit wants to donate the re-pack then I'll start jumping it every weekend as an extra rig just to prove that not all Racers and not all old Racers suck. It's a good rig and I have every confidence in it. Brit was confident enough in it to make her first BASE jump on it at Bridge Day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #20 September 8, 2004 Quote I don't think it is so bad that I would damn a manufacturer to hell for it. What damning to hell are you referring too?? I missed it. Was it in invisible text? Vector 2's opened up and would expose the toggle. That's not good. However, the Riser covers on Racers go down all the way to the pack tray exposing more of the riser if they come open. In fact the entire riser can (and has on numerous occasions) come out. It will then pull lines out of the main tray causing all kinds of interesting malfuntions and snag possibilities. You've got nothing to prove. I've seen plenty of issues with old Racers. So has the world. OLD racers have a bad rep for a reason. I didn't make it up and I'm not saying anything that isn't known already. The fact I can make a poptop nearly impossible to pull is in fact a potential problem. Oops.. he went in because he couldn't pull the reserve handle. Must have been the riggers fault. I've watched users crank their own pop top down. Blame the rigger for that... ok? Look, I don't care to bash a product. You're asking me to do just that to defend a point. People like their rigs. I don't judge people for what they jump. that's entirely up to them. The BASE jump has nothing to do with Freeflying. If you've noticed, the main flaps on Racers fall open completely. If you must use a skydiving rig to do a BASE jump, that's the one. You could cut the entire reserve pack tray off and the rig would still be suitable for what it was used for on that jump. Any thing else? Man, I better get down there and make a jump with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Levin 0 #21 September 9, 2004 QuoteWhat damning to hell are you referring too?? I missed it. Was it in invisible text? Yah, for the most part it is invisible text. But you didn't miss it. It's been visible for awhile. What I'm reffering to everyone's extreme readiness to bash a manufacturer's product for any reason because 1. they don't like it, or 2. they don't jump it. After awhile people believe it and whenever they see it, they agree with it. And in all fairness to the manufacturer; it's not fair. QuoteVector 2's opened up and would expose the toggle. That's not good. However, the Riser covers on Racers go down all the way to the pack tray exposing more of the riser if they come open. The riser covers on the new Racer that Brit refers to in her post more resemble the Vector II's riser covers; which prevent the entire riser from becoming exposed and "freely flying in the wind". Now I know this is not what you are talking about, but you did come to her defense. Why would she make an eggagerated statement such as she did and why would she make such a generalized statement that all new Racers suck because of this one minor incident? Just because Mike Vail's old Javelin has a riser around his arm in Chronicles 3 doesn't mean that all Javelins suck. QuoteYou've got nothing to prove. I've seen plenty of issues with old Racers. So has the world. OLD racers have a bad rep for a reason. I didn't make it up and I'm not saying anything that isn't known already. And exactly why do they have that bad rep? Did they have this bad rep back when they were being manufactured? The old Racers and the Racer Elite 2000 were designed for belly flying. Are the problems supposedly inherent to these rigs common when being used for belly flying? Or do the supposedly inherent problems emerge when being used outside the parameters of their intended use (freeflying)? If these problems are associated primarily with freeflying, then whose fault is that? The manufacturers or the users? I have a Racer Elite 2000 with a Spectre 120 that I use for tube dives and bird-suit jumps. The rig was designed for belly flying and is perfectly fine for wingsuit jumps; however it is obviously not "freefly friendly". I would rather use a "freefly friendly" rig so that all potential problems would be eleminated. But a Racer 2000 is what I have. Rather than waiting till one day when I can get something different, I choose to use the rig. I choose to use the rig because I know the rig, I know at what speed it will blow a riser around my arm and I know how to deal with risers around the arms thru experience. But let's pretend for a moment that I jump this rig and the worst case scenario happens. A riser comes out, a toggle gets loose and wraps repeatadly around my arm, the malfunction isn't clearable and I go in. Now whose fault would that be? Mine for using my equipment in an unsafe manner? Or the manufacturers for making a Racer? How many people do you think will come to the conclusion that all Racers suck because of the incident and decide they need to share their opinion with the world before the same thing happens to someone else? QuoteThe fact I can make a poptop nearly impossible to pull is in fact a potential problem. The fact that you can forget to cock your pilotchute is also a potential problem. QuoteOops.. he went in because he couldn't pull the reserve handle. Must have been the riggers fault. I've watched users crank their own pop top down. Blame the rigger for that... ok? Any rigger that packs Racers should know how to set the pull force within legal limits. Even on Power Racers. I'm not sure which one, but I know there is an FAR that prohibits jumpers from tampering with the reserve system on their rigs. If a jumper cranks his pop-top down hard enough to cause an impossible pull and they die then whose fault is that? The manufacturer's because the user isn't responsible enough to keep his gear safe? Or the user's for using such poor judgement? If a jumper goes in because their rigger cranked the pop-top down to tight, I would point fault at the jumper for taking the inherent risk involved with skydiving. I wouldn't outright blame the rigger because that points liability and is not good for the sport. But in the back of my mind; hell yah I would blame the rigger. QuoteThe BASE jump has nothing to do with Freeflying. If you've noticed, the main flaps on Racers fall open completely. If you must use a skydiving rig to do a BASE jump, that's the one. You're right. The BASE jump has nothing to do with freeflying, but it has everything to do with making my point. The BASE jump is okay for this rig (with all these inherent problems) and receives no complaints because it does it's job just like it is designed to do. But when used for freeflying all kinds of bad shit happens and everybody damns the manufacturer and it's entire line of products despite the fact that the rig failed in a situation it was not designed for. Quote Any thing else? Man, I better get down there and make a jump with you. Yah, I saw in another forum that you were needing a wingsuit for the AOT boogie. You are welcome to use my Classic. It'll fit anyone from 5'8" - 5'10" and 130 - 150 lbs. It'll fit you perfect. Cya in a few weeks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #22 September 9, 2004 How many malfunctions have you seen from toggles out, or risers all the way out? I've seen some mals from toggles out on a few rigs. When the riser comes all the way out and pulls the lines out of the pack tray, it malfunctions big. After seeing 2 identical baglocks from 2 different rigs caused from the exact same thing, in two days, it came clear it's not a safe thing to freefly in an old racer. Still after that, a mals were still being caused by other users refusing to believe it was a bad Idea. Don't freefly in old racers. What part of don't freefly in old racers is creating such a stir? If a Riser comes out on a Javelin, the riser cover will contain most of the riser. Not good, but lesser of 2 evils. The toggle needs to be blown off, to cause trouble, but the lines will not get pulled out of the main pack tray. BASE jump.. wow, that has nothing to do it ... at all. Grasp at straws mate. Some one with harness building knowledge and good zig zag machine could sew one together that would hold up to a BASE jump. lots and lots of BASE jumps actually. And I quote....QuoteThe rig was designed for belly flying and is perfectly fine for wingsuit jumps; however it is obviously not "freefly friendly". I would rather use a "freefly friendly" rig so that all potential problems would be eleminated. But a Racer 2000 is what I have. Rather than waiting till one day when I can get something different, I choose to use the rig. I choose to use the rig because I know the rig, I know at what speed it will blow a riser around my arm and I know how to deal with risers around the arms thru experience. That reads... Don't freefly in Old racers. THANK you... FINALLY!!!! ok you win. I'm off to work now. ciaoMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brits17 0 #23 September 9, 2004 My my my. Makes it sound like I damned the Racer to hell. Not true. Levin, why don't we check out Meg's video this weekend of the 'riser out' jump? I didn't mean to cause controversy, but coming from her she said lines were down his arm. No need for exaggeration. See ya tomorrow punk! _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ramon 0 #24 September 10, 2004 Quote For freefly the Racer is my favorite rig. All racers except Levin's suck for freeflying. Actually I've only seen Levin's riser cover open once. He takes very good care of it and keeps his velcro clean. Quote Just because Mike Vail's old Javelin has a riser around his arm in Chronicles 3 doesn't mean that all Javelins suck. ! If you can't have Levin's rig get a Javelin........ NOT well their great for swooping if their not articulated... ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #25 September 10, 2004 there are 3 types of racers and as far as I know you can buy each one of them today. 1. elite (velcro sealed risers) 2. 2000 (trough style riser covers) 3. 2K3 (no velcro) By "old" I think everyone is referring to everything but the 2K3. An old 2k3 would be fine for FFing. Just wanted to clarify a bit... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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kaerock 1 #3 August 30, 2004 A friend of mine recently upgraded to a Wings container after consistent problems with things coming out of his Racer while freeflying. He got some great video, though. -R QuoteYesterday I was doing some freefly with a friend , and while I was head down , one of the velcro riser covers catched air and opened , making it short , when I looked at my altimeter to open I saw one toogle wraped around my arm , I managed to clear it and opened my main , the opening wasn`t really good , but i managed it . for freefly ,old racers are not good , the speed that you reach , is not for old racers. You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #4 August 31, 2004 ANY rig with old velcro and/or worn out tuck tabs will have the tendency to come open while FFing. Proper preventive maintence is essential."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egons 0 #5 September 1, 2004 My friend! You should be very careful in the manner you post. The last thing you should be doing is bashing a manufacturers equipment! The issue really at hand is that you were foolish enough to freefly with a system that has Velcro! Think about things before you post! With your jump numbers you should be in the position to know better and certainly your seniors should have warned you of the dangers involved. Possibly you should invest in gear that is suited to your skydiving Egon "Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
321seeya 0 #6 September 3, 2004 He is right, The Racer doesnt just suck for freeflying...It Just Sucks... BASE 3:16 - Even if you are about to land on a cop - DONT FORGET TO FLARE! Free the soul -- DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #7 September 3, 2004 And they're ugly too "George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #8 September 3, 2004 QuoteHe is right, The Racer doesnt just suck for freeflying...It Just Sucks... who is right? Egon didn't say Racers suck. Egon said... QuoteYou should be very careful in the manner you post. The last thing you should be doing is bashing a manufacturers equipment! or were you reffering to chileanxaos, whom also did not say Racers suck. Chileanxaos said... Quotefor freefly ,old racers are not good , the speed that you reach , is not for old racers. What kind of personal experience are you basing yor opinion on? Or are you just jumping on a bandwagon? For freefly the Racer is my favorite rig. For swooping the Racer is my favorite rig. For serious CRW I would stick a sock around the pop-top or get a different rig. The new Racers are velcro free and have an excellent tuck tab system. FWIW, I perfer the velcro on the sides. The new Racer 2k3 is in my opinion one of the ugliest rigs I've seen. IMO, it's a good example of what happens when you mess with perfection. If I ever had to switch to a different brand of container I would go with a Vector Micron or a Wings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jskydiver22 0 #9 September 4, 2004 I dont really think that he was bashing the product, he was just sayin that they arent good for freeflying and sharing his experience with them. Im gonna have to agree with 321seeya's comment. --I don't even know enough to know that I dont know-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
321seeya 0 #10 September 4, 2004 My opinion is based on the Racer Model I had. An SST (Which has come to mean "Struggle, Struggle - Thump) This rig failed me when I needed it the most. I had an emergency situation (Severe Lineover) and after cutting away my main, COULD NOT get the reserve deployed. I pulled as hard as I could with BOTH HANDS. The impossible pull was caused by the cable housing shifting and causing the pin to lock in place (do some research on this and you will see a pattern of this happening with this model) The only thing that saved my ass on this jump was the cypres. I ALMOST sent it to get its 4 year the week before, but decided to jump it till the actual repack date. (unit was still current by 2 weeks) So I think I can back up the statement that "Racers Just Suck. BASE 3:16 - Even if you are about to land on a cop - DONT FORGET TO FLARE! Free the soul -- DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #11 September 7, 2004 ... or new ones for that matter. This weekend a local jumper with a brand new racer had his riser cover come untucked during freefall, causing his risers to be exposed and freely flying in the wind. He deployed at 6.5k. No injury or incident, but it apparently didn't look pretty and he got away unscathed. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #12 September 7, 2004 QuoteThis weekend a local jumper with a brand new racer had his riser cover come untucked during freefall, causing his risers to be exposed and freely flying in the wind. And this has NEVER happened to other containers either has it? Get for real, jumping old gear, any old gear has it's inhereant draw backs. Even on new gear this is not unheard of regardless of who manufacturers the equipment."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #13 September 7, 2004 I didn't say never. I just gave one example of a few problems that have occured with this manufacturer over the past several months. I could list more, but this isn't a bash session. I will pm you instead if you want. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #14 September 7, 2004 Quote... or new ones for that matter. This weekend a local jumper with a brand new racer had his riser cover come untucked during freefall, causing his risers to be exposed and freely flying in the wind. He deployed at 6.5k. No injury or incident, but it apparently didn't look pretty and he got away unscathed. this incident in question is hardly worth mentioning and i can't understand why you bothered bringing up. the incident happened to a staff member that is on almost every single load. he uses packers to pack his rig. the packer is always on a 15 minute call with his rig and often has to take it to the loading area. the packers also have a gazillion other rigs to pack including tandems, teams and fun jumpers. needless to say the packer has to pack his rig in a super fast hurry. in freefall the right tuck tab came undone a small part of the riser came out. not enough to cause a problem, no where near enough riser out to get around his arm. in fact the design of the side flaps prevented the riser from coming out anymore than just off the top of the shoulder. yah it startled the guy cuz it had never happened before, but it certainly was not a life threatening incident. being a rigger and a professional you should have a better clue than jumping on a bandwagon such as this. i don't know where you got your facts but i heard the story straight from that person's mouth. Brit, you know me and my gear. How bad do my rigs suck??? i'd really like to know since i jump them every weekend (w/out incident). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #15 September 7, 2004 QuoteMy opinion is based on the Racer Model I had. An SST (Which has come to mean "Struggle, Struggle - Thump)....So I think I can back up the statement that "Racers Just Suck. Are all racers sst's? if they aren't the same rig as yours but have the same name does that still mean they all suck?? just trying to understand your logic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #16 September 7, 2004 Quoteshould have a better clue than jumping on a bandwagon such as this Kettle... black... or something like that. Come on levin, you know better. You have a teeny tiny rig that doesn't have any issues. That does not represent each and every rig out there, especially one of larger size. I can and have packed my own and other rigs in well under 4 minutes. Your argument on packing fast does not hold up. I'm not here to bash the product so don't think I'm here to do that. However, risers down the arm with lines or a toggle showing ... is bad. My experience with that exact scenario is not limited to Racers by the way. The worst offenders do happen to be the old Style Racer though. As far as the impossible pull scenario described above is concerned. The reserve ripcord routing and the method of holding the Pop Top down hasn't changed. I know how to pack your rig so the handle is hard or impossible to pull. If you'd like, I will show you. Now for the original poster or anyone who cares. Read the Title of the thread. Dont freefly with old racers That has nothing to do with new Racers. The guy is one hundred percent accurate with this statement. I've seen only a couple new Racers (including the one mentioned above) so I will reserve judgement until further examination. Don't freefly in old Racers is what the original poster said. I agree. Good day.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chileanXaos 0 #17 September 7, 2004 Hello I have been looking at my post to see how people are feeling about it, I dont think freeflying with old racers , even with new velcro is good , So if you are doing it I dont recomend it . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #18 September 8, 2004 QuoteI dont think freeflying with old racers , even with new velcro is good , So if you are doing it I dont recomend it The new ones are completely velcro free unless you ask for it. As seen HERE"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #19 September 8, 2004 QuoteYou have a teeny tiny rig that doesn't have any issues. That does not represent each and every rig out there, especially one of larger size. I maybe wrong but I believe the rig in question that Brit refers to holds a Cobalt 135. Small by some standards, not mine. The rig Brit refers to is definetly not a big rig. QuoteI can and have packed my own and other rigs in well under 4 minutes. Your argument on packing fast does not hold up i think it does. i think it's very possible for a packer to get in such a hurry that they don't pull the riser down tight to the bottom of the main pack tray. instead they close the riser cover of a ton of riser slack. maybe the tuck tab doesn't close all the way. maybe the air blew it open in freefall since all the slack made the tuck tab want to come open anyway. speculation. but i think it's what most likely happened. Quoterisers down the arm with lines or a toggle showing ... is bad i agree. it's bad. i didn't say it wasn't but i don't think it's as bad as most people do or as bad as other possible scenarios that could cause a malfunction or injury. I don't think it is so bad that I would damn a manufacturer to hell for it. QuoteThe worst offenders do happen to be the old Style Racer though. In my experince the worst offenders have been Vector II's. QuoteAs far as the impossible pull scenario described above is concerned. The reserve ripcord routing and the method of holding the Pop Top down hasn't changed. I know how to pack your rig so the handle is hard or impossible to pull. If you'd like, I will show you. Thanks for the offer but i know all about that. My red/yellow racer came from the manufacturer with a 52 lb. pull. Now, no one has ever accused me of being muscular but I can tell you for fact from experience that a 52 lb. pull is nothing. I've never pulled a reserve handle on an old racer, but i have pulled mine twice in actual use and several times on the ground with a spring whenever it gets re-packed. The b/w racer i had before pulled 54 lbs with a spring. The late Tommy Thompson, my former rigger, fixed the problem on my red/yellow racer. I never had to use one of his pack jobs in an emergency, but on the ground after his first pack, it pulled 22 lbs. The pack job itself looked just as good as the manufacturers and the pop top was not loose. I think the hard pull might be common with all Racers, Power Racers for sure. But I suspect it is mostly the rigger's fault and not the container's. QuoteNow for the original poster or anyone who cares. Read the Title of the thread. Dont freefly with old racers That has nothing to do with new Racers. The guy is one hundred percent accurate with this statement. I have an old Racer. I'm not exactly sure how old it is but the reserve in it is an old 5-cell 175 if that gives any indication. The rig is huge and much wider than I am. If Brit wants to donate the re-pack then I'll start jumping it every weekend as an extra rig just to prove that not all Racers and not all old Racers suck. It's a good rig and I have every confidence in it. Brit was confident enough in it to make her first BASE jump on it at Bridge Day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #20 September 8, 2004 Quote I don't think it is so bad that I would damn a manufacturer to hell for it. What damning to hell are you referring too?? I missed it. Was it in invisible text? Vector 2's opened up and would expose the toggle. That's not good. However, the Riser covers on Racers go down all the way to the pack tray exposing more of the riser if they come open. In fact the entire riser can (and has on numerous occasions) come out. It will then pull lines out of the main tray causing all kinds of interesting malfuntions and snag possibilities. You've got nothing to prove. I've seen plenty of issues with old Racers. So has the world. OLD racers have a bad rep for a reason. I didn't make it up and I'm not saying anything that isn't known already. The fact I can make a poptop nearly impossible to pull is in fact a potential problem. Oops.. he went in because he couldn't pull the reserve handle. Must have been the riggers fault. I've watched users crank their own pop top down. Blame the rigger for that... ok? Look, I don't care to bash a product. You're asking me to do just that to defend a point. People like their rigs. I don't judge people for what they jump. that's entirely up to them. The BASE jump has nothing to do with Freeflying. If you've noticed, the main flaps on Racers fall open completely. If you must use a skydiving rig to do a BASE jump, that's the one. You could cut the entire reserve pack tray off and the rig would still be suitable for what it was used for on that jump. Any thing else? Man, I better get down there and make a jump with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #21 September 9, 2004 QuoteWhat damning to hell are you referring too?? I missed it. Was it in invisible text? Yah, for the most part it is invisible text. But you didn't miss it. It's been visible for awhile. What I'm reffering to everyone's extreme readiness to bash a manufacturer's product for any reason because 1. they don't like it, or 2. they don't jump it. After awhile people believe it and whenever they see it, they agree with it. And in all fairness to the manufacturer; it's not fair. QuoteVector 2's opened up and would expose the toggle. That's not good. However, the Riser covers on Racers go down all the way to the pack tray exposing more of the riser if they come open. The riser covers on the new Racer that Brit refers to in her post more resemble the Vector II's riser covers; which prevent the entire riser from becoming exposed and "freely flying in the wind". Now I know this is not what you are talking about, but you did come to her defense. Why would she make an eggagerated statement such as she did and why would she make such a generalized statement that all new Racers suck because of this one minor incident? Just because Mike Vail's old Javelin has a riser around his arm in Chronicles 3 doesn't mean that all Javelins suck. QuoteYou've got nothing to prove. I've seen plenty of issues with old Racers. So has the world. OLD racers have a bad rep for a reason. I didn't make it up and I'm not saying anything that isn't known already. And exactly why do they have that bad rep? Did they have this bad rep back when they were being manufactured? The old Racers and the Racer Elite 2000 were designed for belly flying. Are the problems supposedly inherent to these rigs common when being used for belly flying? Or do the supposedly inherent problems emerge when being used outside the parameters of their intended use (freeflying)? If these problems are associated primarily with freeflying, then whose fault is that? The manufacturers or the users? I have a Racer Elite 2000 with a Spectre 120 that I use for tube dives and bird-suit jumps. The rig was designed for belly flying and is perfectly fine for wingsuit jumps; however it is obviously not "freefly friendly". I would rather use a "freefly friendly" rig so that all potential problems would be eleminated. But a Racer 2000 is what I have. Rather than waiting till one day when I can get something different, I choose to use the rig. I choose to use the rig because I know the rig, I know at what speed it will blow a riser around my arm and I know how to deal with risers around the arms thru experience. But let's pretend for a moment that I jump this rig and the worst case scenario happens. A riser comes out, a toggle gets loose and wraps repeatadly around my arm, the malfunction isn't clearable and I go in. Now whose fault would that be? Mine for using my equipment in an unsafe manner? Or the manufacturers for making a Racer? How many people do you think will come to the conclusion that all Racers suck because of the incident and decide they need to share their opinion with the world before the same thing happens to someone else? QuoteThe fact I can make a poptop nearly impossible to pull is in fact a potential problem. The fact that you can forget to cock your pilotchute is also a potential problem. QuoteOops.. he went in because he couldn't pull the reserve handle. Must have been the riggers fault. I've watched users crank their own pop top down. Blame the rigger for that... ok? Any rigger that packs Racers should know how to set the pull force within legal limits. Even on Power Racers. I'm not sure which one, but I know there is an FAR that prohibits jumpers from tampering with the reserve system on their rigs. If a jumper cranks his pop-top down hard enough to cause an impossible pull and they die then whose fault is that? The manufacturer's because the user isn't responsible enough to keep his gear safe? Or the user's for using such poor judgement? If a jumper goes in because their rigger cranked the pop-top down to tight, I would point fault at the jumper for taking the inherent risk involved with skydiving. I wouldn't outright blame the rigger because that points liability and is not good for the sport. But in the back of my mind; hell yah I would blame the rigger. QuoteThe BASE jump has nothing to do with Freeflying. If you've noticed, the main flaps on Racers fall open completely. If you must use a skydiving rig to do a BASE jump, that's the one. You're right. The BASE jump has nothing to do with freeflying, but it has everything to do with making my point. The BASE jump is okay for this rig (with all these inherent problems) and receives no complaints because it does it's job just like it is designed to do. But when used for freeflying all kinds of bad shit happens and everybody damns the manufacturer and it's entire line of products despite the fact that the rig failed in a situation it was not designed for. Quote Any thing else? Man, I better get down there and make a jump with you. Yah, I saw in another forum that you were needing a wingsuit for the AOT boogie. You are welcome to use my Classic. It'll fit anyone from 5'8" - 5'10" and 130 - 150 lbs. It'll fit you perfect. Cya in a few weeks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #22 September 9, 2004 How many malfunctions have you seen from toggles out, or risers all the way out? I've seen some mals from toggles out on a few rigs. When the riser comes all the way out and pulls the lines out of the pack tray, it malfunctions big. After seeing 2 identical baglocks from 2 different rigs caused from the exact same thing, in two days, it came clear it's not a safe thing to freefly in an old racer. Still after that, a mals were still being caused by other users refusing to believe it was a bad Idea. Don't freefly in old racers. What part of don't freefly in old racers is creating such a stir? If a Riser comes out on a Javelin, the riser cover will contain most of the riser. Not good, but lesser of 2 evils. The toggle needs to be blown off, to cause trouble, but the lines will not get pulled out of the main pack tray. BASE jump.. wow, that has nothing to do it ... at all. Grasp at straws mate. Some one with harness building knowledge and good zig zag machine could sew one together that would hold up to a BASE jump. lots and lots of BASE jumps actually. And I quote....QuoteThe rig was designed for belly flying and is perfectly fine for wingsuit jumps; however it is obviously not "freefly friendly". I would rather use a "freefly friendly" rig so that all potential problems would be eleminated. But a Racer 2000 is what I have. Rather than waiting till one day when I can get something different, I choose to use the rig. I choose to use the rig because I know the rig, I know at what speed it will blow a riser around my arm and I know how to deal with risers around the arms thru experience. That reads... Don't freefly in Old racers. THANK you... FINALLY!!!! ok you win. I'm off to work now. ciaoMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #23 September 9, 2004 My my my. Makes it sound like I damned the Racer to hell. Not true. Levin, why don't we check out Meg's video this weekend of the 'riser out' jump? I didn't mean to cause controversy, but coming from her she said lines were down his arm. No need for exaggeration. See ya tomorrow punk! _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #24 September 10, 2004 Quote For freefly the Racer is my favorite rig. All racers except Levin's suck for freeflying. Actually I've only seen Levin's riser cover open once. He takes very good care of it and keeps his velcro clean. Quote Just because Mike Vail's old Javelin has a riser around his arm in Chronicles 3 doesn't mean that all Javelins suck. ! If you can't have Levin's rig get a Javelin........ NOT well their great for swooping if their not articulated... ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #25 September 10, 2004 there are 3 types of racers and as far as I know you can buy each one of them today. 1. elite (velcro sealed risers) 2. 2000 (trough style riser covers) 3. 2K3 (no velcro) By "old" I think everyone is referring to everything but the 2K3. An old 2k3 would be fine for FFing. Just wanted to clarify a bit... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
