bmcd308 0 #1 August 13, 2003 So that I do not seem like too much of a jerk for suggesting that any Raven vs. PD Reserve debate take place here rather than in Incidents, I'll go ahead and start the thread. There are those who say that Ravens have a very abrupt stall after the flare. I have never flown a reserve of any brand, so everyone else get after it. Brent (ducking and running) ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #2 August 13, 2003 Having flown a MR-109-M and a PD-106R, the Raven was very quick to stall, and it was a very abrupt stall. The PD didn't exhibit those characteristics. It was much better behaved and much easier to land. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #3 August 13, 2003 It's been a known fact (although obviously not that known) that the higher you load up Ravens, the more abrupt the stall is. If you keep within proper, recommended loadings (this doesn't mean simply "just a few pounds under max") they fly just fine. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #4 August 14, 2003 I didn't have a problem landing my Raven IIg on the one ride I've got on it... so far... but I'm loading it at about 0.87. Didn't feel like it was about to stall when I flared hard, feet and knees together, ready for a PLF... stood it up just fine... very little wind too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #5 August 14, 2003 And then there is the Raven MAX. A reserve thats built like a freekin' tank, and flys well when loaded. Hmmm... Times progress and things change.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #6 August 14, 2003 The micro Raven series (150 and smaller) seem to have the smaller control range. The Raven I, II ect on up really hve never been accused of this characteristic. With three rigs in my ready to jump pile I have two Raven I reserves but in the smaller rig have a PD126 . Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #7 August 14, 2003 Mine had a left turn in it. I have seen many people land on their asses with them. And lets not forget the "line attachment" issue. I had two rigs..One with a PD 113, and one with a Micro Raven.....My RIGGER asked me to stop jumping the MR."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #8 August 14, 2003 QuoteMy RIGGER asked me to stop jumping the MR. Get a second opinion. He's doing you a disservice.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #9 August 14, 2003 QuoteGet a second opinion. He's doing you a disservice. I disagree. She is one of the best in the buisness. And I had serious doubt about it as well...As did friends of mine that worked for RW and Sunpath. If a canopy has a problem, and the "fix" does NOTHING....And they wanted to charge for it? It's problem with the product. My Raven II had a left turn in it. I will not say that PD is the only canopy...But I will not put a Raven in anything I own. I vote with my feet."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #10 August 14, 2003 Ravens came off my list of possible canopies to buy when I saw how they handled the recall... How the canopy performs is now irrelevant. I don't see how a company expects us to trust a product they won't stand behind. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 August 14, 2003 QuoteI vote with my feet. Groovy. The way your original post read, it sounded like you were taking your rigger's opinion as gosple and not chalenging it. You have done your homework and made your decision. I don't agree with it but that's not the point. Got a reserve you want to give away now?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #12 August 14, 2003 See, you got me all nervous now. I just bought a rig with a raven II. With equip it will be laoded at about 0.91:1 I am figuring I should not have too many issues. I could probably land that without flaring and not get hurt. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #13 August 14, 2003 >>I could probably land that without flaring and not get hurt. << Let us know how that test works out. It will be a better test if you do it at a wide variety of wing loadings. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #14 August 14, 2003 Yeah thanks I'll post the results under INCIDENTS!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #15 August 14, 2003 QuoteThe way your original post read, it sounded like you were taking your rigger's opinion as gosple and not chalenging it. No, I had doubts as well. The "fix" they wanted done didn't sound like a very good one. However, when it comes to rigging stuff...I trust a person with a riggers ticket...In this case a master ticket who has over 5,000 reserve packs, over 6,000 jumps and has been in the sport longer. Than little 'Ol me when it comes to gear. I balance it out against common sense, but I listen to those I know have the knowledge. I never listen to sponsored people....Duh, what are they gonna tell you? BTW jump a Micron QuoteGot a reserve you want to give away now? Sorry it was a sponsored rig... I'll try ANY main....But I listen a lot when it comes to reserves....I have NEVER heard a bad thing about a PD. If ya got a story let me know..."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #16 August 14, 2003 QuoteI trust a person with a riggers ticket My advice? Don't trust someone just because they have a ticket. There are classes out there that can turn you into a rigger from wuffo status in 6 days. Perfectly legal, but the canidates lack the experience to offer informed opinions on most things. QuoteIn this case a master ticket who has over 5,000 reserve packs, over 6,000 jumps and has been in the sport longer. This person sounds like they have the required experience. I'd listen to what they have to say. But I still never take any one person's word as final. I prefer to come to my own decision. QuoteI never listen to sponsored people....Duh, what are they gonna tell you? If they are good, they'll be honest. They will try to promote their product, but they will also tell you if it's right for you or not. For example, I jump a Xaos, but I wouldn't recomend one to someone who has no eliptical experience even if they had a 1000 skydives. QuoteIf ya got a story let me know... No, I'm not gonna mudsling, and PD is good at what they do. I just dissagree with your riggers assesment of PA's product. Free country (uh, yeah) free choice.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grasshopper 0 #17 August 15, 2003 Quote Got a reserve you want to give away now? I do. I'll give you an 120 microraven. but will you give me your pd126? I've seen enough good canopy pilots eat dirt flying ravens to not want to fly one. and I have taken a 3-5mph downwinder on a pd126rm just for fun, with no problem standing it up.________________________________________________________ Abbie drove me to Idaho and all I got was this lousy sigline Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #18 August 15, 2003 damn, you guys got me all antsy now. i'm gonna have to find a belly pack and put a ride on my mr150 loaded at 1.3. are the opponents here suggesting that it is an unsafe canopy or to expect structural failures on deployment?namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #19 August 15, 2003 Quotedamn, you guys got me all antsy now. i'm gonna have to find a belly pack and put a ride on my mr150 loaded at 1.3. are the opponents here suggesting that it is an unsafe canopy or to expect structural failures on deployment? I'd also like some more info I have an MR150 loaded at 1.25 is that considered high for this reserve??You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #20 August 15, 2003 Don't confuse "X is not as good as Y" with "X is unsafe" -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #21 August 15, 2003 Quotedamn, you guys got me all antsy now. i'm gonna have to find a belly pack and put a ride on my mr150 loaded at 1.3. are the opponents here suggesting that it is an unsafe canopy or to expect structural failures on deployment? Have you ever test flown a MR150 at 1.3? Or did you just put it in your rig and forget about it? I would take the time to find a demo MR150 and go jump it. Determine for yourself under less stressed conditions than an actual reserve ride to find out how it flys. Determine it for yourself! Now, with that said, I have a friend who recently broke his leg on a MR reserve landing. He had 3 rides on it. The first he said he landed fine. The second he said it folded up behind him and put him flat on his back but he walked away bruised from it. The third he broke his leg because he felt the reserve start to do the fold routine behind him and let up on the toggles to keep it flying. He basicly landed with almost no flare. He is now replacing his MR. He freely admits that he was "loading up" his MR. What his actual type and wingloading are I do not know so I won't speculate on that. But I'll tell you, I have a PD126R in my Micron if that tells you anything about my opinion. That's a loading of 1.3:1. Just my opinion. Go get a demo and jump it yourself.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
docparafrog 0 #22 August 19, 2003 My ravenII worked fine, my wt 210, laned on the grass at elsinore- perfect stand up, flared at 10 feet. It works at the proper wing loading. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crapflinger2000 1 #23 August 19, 2003 I have heard numerous (and experienced first hand on two occaisons) tales of Precision's customer "service" when it came to major and minor issues with reserves... Both mine involved reserves that were jumped and found to have wicked turns in them (a relative expression - to me, a reserve that requires more than shoulder level input to halt a turn is serious). Precision's solution both times? Re-trim the canopy, so that one or more A-lines were about 1" shorter than the rest... "Can't find the problem, so let's tweak the lines." (and no, the issue was not in the harness, we checked it and test jumped them on other rigs).... I am never buying Precision again. However, I am not so anti precision that I am dumping my MR 135... I'll wait till I get a new rig __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #24 August 19, 2003 From my experience a Mircro Raven 150-M loaded at 1.3 lands just fine.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
