Minimum Requirements with Go Pro versus big camera

[marcantonio152 0]

I saw a student - not A licensed yet (22 civilian jumps) - with a Go Pro on yesterday. I was wondering if I should have said anything to him. He's had some military jumps - not a large number because I'd place his skill level somewhere between AFF-certified and A license ready. I know that there's a lot of controversy and ideas about how much attention you pay to the jump versus the video camera, but I could tell that this guy was just turning the camera on and leaving it there until the jump was over.

I also know another guy who thinks he's hot shit in the air. He's been jumping a Go Pro HD since he had 90 jumps, and he won't listen to anyone who says anything about not using it. I've never seen him open low or even have a questionable landing, but he definitely spends a good bit of his attention on where his camera is. From jumping with him I can tell you that he's a novice freeflyer - he can get into the positions and do a little bit of RW - and a novice belly flyer.

I know that USPA recommends 200 jumps before
jumping with a camera, and I know the reasoning behind it. I've jumped with a camera 9 times and I have 199 jumps so far. It didn't take away my altitude awareness or cause me to do anything different. However, I know that at 100 jumps I lost altitude awareness once or twice and had a low pull without the camera, so I knew I not to start jumping with a camera at that time.

Should we be leaving these decisions to the jumpers themselves, or should something be said? As someone who doesn't even have a coach rating, I hardly think I'm in the right place to say something to the guy with 110 jumps that thinks he's the best thing to happen to skydiving since the square canopy. But should I at least mention something to the student? The main worry I had here is that when I saw the camera and asked him how many jumps he had (20,) I didn't say anything, and he could have interpreted this as acceptance.

I'm now required to quit skydiving by the US Navy

[stratostar 5]

Well you could say something and you could go over and bash your head into the wall too. In other words why waste your time they most likely won't listen to you anyway.

We will see more and more of this now that the GO pro is in the market because everyone thinks because it's small there is no danger like a big camera. And as long as DZO's and S&TA's will let them on the plane with it your fighting a lost cause.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Icon134 0]

Personally I think there isn't/shouldn't be any difference between a Go Pro camera versus any other camera that one might take on a skydive. whether they believe it or not it has been shown that even people with much more experience that putting a camera on their head (no matter what kind) is a distraction.

The problems of camera flying aren't merely associated with the additional weight on your head, additional snag hazards on the helment, but are more due to the additional distraction of having a camera... even if one claims they aren't going to pay attention to the camera... it will cause a distraction...

and DiverMike Sorry I didn't get to talk to you on safety day (there were soooo many people there)... hopefully I get a chance to see you sometime this spring/summer.

Scott

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[DSE 3]

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Well you could say something and you could go over and bash your head into the wall too. In other words why waste your time they most likely won't listen to you anyway.

We will see more and more of this now that the GO pro is in the market because everyone thinks because it's small there is no danger like a big camera. And as long as DZO's and S&TA's will let them on the plane with it your fighting a lost cause.

Therein lies the crux of it.

Two situations reported related to GoPro/Contours... and here I'll add a third one.
Saw a jumper with a GoPro and a yellow "line" between the GoPro and his chinstrap. Walked up to ask him about it.
He's afraid of snagging/losing the GoPro, so he tied about 12" of cord to his camera and other end to chinstrap. That way "If the camera breaks off, it won't be lost."
"Whatcha gonna do if the camera tangles up in deploying lines or risers? Do you think it won't get sucked into anything coming off your back?"
"I'm a professional paraglider, I know this won't happen to me."
I asked him if I could show him something, he agreed.
Grabbed the cord and started pulling him around, told him to simulate a mal. He first went for his cutaway handle and another student pointed out that if his helmet is attached to his main lines, he likely wouldn't get a lot of benefit from cutting away. He then tried to undo his chinstrap but the Fastex wouldn't easily release due to the pressure on the chinstrap.
He has 90 jumps, has had a couple issues with very low deployments and no AAD, and is still jumping the camera minus the "safety cable."

Here's to hoping all the small camera/low-time jumper stories are as good as this one (so far).

[mccordia 73]

In Holland, a B licence and 200 relative jumps to others are manditory for ANY type of camerajump. Regardless of camera-size or attachment method.

Shame the camera size is often seen as the reason for not being allowed to jump a camera starting at AFF level 1..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Does anyone have the stats on incidents involving jumpers with +-200 jumps where it was confirmed that having a camera was the cause of the incident?

I searched, and it was all higher jump number jumpers and usually involved a hard opening, or cutaway.

I do realize that most incidents never make it to the forums also.

It just erks me when someone say that having a camera WILL cause a distraction. Even tho it might not have been right for everyone Joe Jennings started jumping a camera at 80 jumps, and was kicked out of Perris because of it. He even stated not wanting to get flamed for it but said that if a person feels comfortable and knows it will not be a distraction to have at it.

We have settled on the 200 jump number, fine its a great idea and sets a guideline to go off of. I just think there are people who have a certain background, done the research, picked the least invasive/safe option for camera gear, knows what ep are involved, and have the mental capacity or whatever you want to call it to flip a switch and forget about it.

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[davelepka 4]

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I just think there are people who have a certain background, done the research, picked the least invasive/safe option for camera gear, knows what ep are involved, and have the mental capacity or whatever you want to call it to flip a switch and forget about it.

That's great, now find a way to tell me who these people are before you send them up with a camera, and we'll be all set.

What you're talking about is the classic 'mad skillz' syndrome, where jumpers think that they are gods gift to skydiving, and that all of those rules are for everyone esle.

There's a kid in the ICU in Ohio right now who thought that taking it easy on your first jumping day of the season was a rule made for everyone else. He went on to pogo himself into the ground throwing a 720 hook turn on first jump of the year.

Where was the harm in taking it easy? What horrible thing would have happened if he had dialed it back and went for the 270? Or even a (gasp!) straight in landing? The answer is no harm, and he would have been able to make jump 2 that same day.

He figured he was too cool for school, and went big on day one, and now he'll be lucky if he gets to make a jump #2 in 2010. He might have to hold off until 2011, and you can bet that his first jump next season will be much, much different.

Don't look for ways to get around rules or guidelines that restrict your activities based on jump numbers or experience. Simply gain the jump numbers or experience required, and enter the new activity a better preparred, more skilled skydiver.

[Anvilbrother 0]

I hear you, and agree with the 200 jump rule and what you say, and there is no foolproof way to test. Just don't agree that everyone WILL be affected by a rectangle with glass.

I have a strong background in having to untangle a helmet wrapped in sometimes live electric lines in a pitch black environment while a house burns down around me was even hung by the neck once while tangled around my neck and the floor of the house trailer gave out from under me and my partner. I had to use cutting pliers to free myself. Also being caught up in ropes, trees, fishing lines in a fast flowing river while rescue diving.

I know skydiving is a different environment and I might be under the blur of mad skills syndrome but for the last 50 jumps I jumped a pc9 in a rawa. Never once thought of framin a shot hell most of time all it caught was sky. I just set it and forgot it until I took it off to get my Neptune out of the pocket.

Edited to add
I stopped jumping while we had our daughter and she grew up a bit(3yrs). I am preparing to start up again this year and will have over 200 jumps before I strap one on again.

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[DSE 3]

There will *always* be exceptions and the "exceptional." That doesn't translate into changing up rules and recommendations.
Rules and recommendations are a benchmark; waivers and special circumstance permissions are there for well...."special" considerations.
Problem is, everyone thinks they're special.

You comment on how the majority of incidents you see involving cameras point to higher number jumpers. That should tell you the story right there. If very experienced jumpers can get their asses handed to them, then it's more likely lower number jumpers will too (and have had). The stories are myriad. In the case of the GoPro/Contours, I'm "collecting" stories, and have three in less than 45 days. If I have three, there are easily nine. If you go back to November when they first started shipping, I have five stories of problems related to the camera. Does someone need to die or be badly broken to get the point? It's not much different than wingsuits. There is a reason for the recommended numbers. It's not arbitrary, and 200 isn't a point where everyone is ready. It *is* a point where the door issupposed to begin opening, however.
For some reason, no one understands the rules and recommendations until they're on the other side of them.

[Anvilbrother 0]

I agree thats why when I start back up later this year I am jumping a Z1 until I am good and current and over 200 jumps.

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[pilotdave 0]

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I agree thats why when I start back up later this year I am jumping a Z1 until I am good and current and over 200 jumps.

No offense intended... it took me 5 years to reach 100 jumps... but I have a feeling your definition of "good and current" may be different than mine. Nobody jumping sporadically should be complicating their skydives with extra stuff like cameras or wingsuits, etc. I know there's no stopping someone that's done it before with far less than the recommended jump numbers or currency, but I'd advise you that making 20 or 30 jumps after a long break is not "current enough." Again, I understand you've done it already and haven't been bit yet. That's what pushes people to keep doing things against the recommendations of others. But it doesn't make those recommendations wrong.

Add the camera when you're making a couple hundred jumps per year and can meet USPA's recommendations for camera flying from the SIM.

On the original topic, I did a recurrency jump with a guy with ~100 jumps who was out of the sport for 14 years. He had a little video camera ready to jump within a week. I recommended against it. Unfortunately (IMO), there's no rule against it. I believe that there should be a BSR, and I believe that eventually there will be a BSR. There's just no reason to allow it. But I've seen videos from big name DZs like Perris shot by jumpers with as few as 17 jumps.

I waited until I had 700 jumps to add a camera. I firmly believe that it made me a better flyer. I got REALLY rusty when I was doing mostly 4-way videos a couple years ago.

Dave

[Anvilbrother 0]

Yea its going to be a while, a good camera set up is over a grand. I have basically sold everything from all my other hobies, and have committed myself to spending ever dollar I have to jumping this year. Katrina basically killed the skydiving buzz down here. Finally a coworker got interested and started AFF. Its gonna be nice to have a jump buddy to ride to the dz with.

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[billvon 2,400]

>It just erks me when someone say that having a camera WILL cause a distraction.

Yes, it generally will.

> Even tho it might not have been right for everyone Joe Jennings started
>jumping a camera at 80 jumps, and was kicked out of Perris because of it.

I know a guy who jumped a 120 sq ft parachute at 50 jumps and did OK. Doesn't mean that it's a good idea.

> I just think there are people who have a certain background, done the
> research, picked the least invasive/safe option for camera gear, knows
> what ep are involved, and have the mental capacity or whatever you want
>to call it to flip a switch and forget about it.

Yep. And everyone in the sport thinks they're that guy. 99% are wrong - which is why we have guidelines like the 200 jump thing.

[DiverMike 5]

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and DiverMike Sorry I didn't get to talk to you on safety day (there were soooo many people there)... hopefully I get a chance to see you sometime this spring/summer.

Sorry also I missed you. I paid very close to the camera flying safety presentation. I'm sure it was too long for almost everyone in the room, but I listened intently to every word. The best part of the entire presentation was the beginning, "You know you might be ready to fly a camera if , , ,". I will definitely wait.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[velocityphoto 0]

It will take way more than 200 jumps for you to be current. Your profile says 179 jumps, "in 6 yrs" this is exactly the type of people who have bad accidents . You can't argue this with anyone on here trying to give you sound advise. These guys know what they are talking about because they have way more camera experience and jumps. As far as Joe Jennings go's, if asked to look back at it now? He would probably say he didn't make a good decision to jump a camera at that level of experience

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[Anvilbrother 0]

The point has been made already and those jumps were done in a few years i took the last 3-4 while my daughter was young. As stated above It will be a while before I camera up again.

I typed this post out probbaly a dozen times in the past but closed the window before posting it due to the ensuing flame fest.

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[davelepka 4]

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I typed this post out probbaly a dozen times in the past but closed the window before posting it due to the ensuing flame fest.

That's an interesting point you bring up.

What is the definition of being 'flamed'? To me, it's when you're pointed out to be incorrect in your thinking, sometimes rather 'vigorously', and generally by more than one person.

On the average internet forum, I can see where that might be a pain in the ass, and generally somewhat counter-productive to continued discussion, or creating an environment of freedom of speech or thought. You don't know who you're talking to, or what they may or may not know about golf/star wars/growing roses, or whatever the forum may be geared toward.

However, in this forum, a posters qualifications and expereince are clearly stated (usually) in their profile, and beyond that everyone here has a few other jumpers from their home DZ who can confirm who they are, and they they are indeed who they claim to be.

My point is that if you think you're going to get 'flamed' when you post here, it's not because everyone else is a dick looking to give you a hard time, it's because you're doing something wrong.

Let's be honest here, the only way a guy can call you out for making an error is if you make an error. If the other guy is mistaken, then you can just point that out, but if the matter comes down to your opinion against theirs, you have to consider their expereince level and if others are echoing their same concerns, at which point the odds are that you're wrong.

None of this is directly related to your situation. I have no problem with your statement about returning to jumping, and not strapping on a camera until you top 200 jumps. Others took it as you meaning that you're going to return to jumping and on return jump 21 you'll be rolling tape. I took it as you'll be waiting unitl you have at least 200 jumps before thinking about a camera.

I also think, keeping in mind that you hung up your rig for a few years for sake of your child, that your future thinking about jumping will include some consideration for your child. While you may have scoffed at the 200 jump rule for camera before being a father, your choices as a father so far indicate that you'll be looking at things a little differently moving forward. I hope.

Beyond that, I have to wonder why you would use Joe Jennings as an example of a guy who started jumping camera early? If I recall correctly, so did Norm Kent, and he did so in the middle of the jumgle with some sort of aniquated equipment. The problem is that the two of them went on to be two of the most prolific camera flyers in the sport. If anyone would be the exception to the rule, it's those two guys.

What you need to do is point out an accident prone, loser of a jumper who started jumping camera at 80 jumps with no ill effects, then you might have an argument counter to the rule, but when you bring up Mr. Tidy-Bowl in the Hole, multi-time X-Games champ Joe Jennings, it's not helping your cause.

[Anvilbrother 0]

My definition of flaming is when a point has been made but people keep piling on the cart anyways. There was a message, it was sent, received, and verified, there is no more need for Joe blows comments to make the person feel worse.

I bring him up because of his qualifications, he is better and more experienced than all of you. So when an expert says something its from the best. You would not take advice about launching a rocket from the janitor at NASA you go to the head of the pack.

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[jdfreefly 1]

When I actually get off my ass and post something in these forums it is not just for the benefit of the original poster and I think there are many people that feel the same way. So while you see it as flaming, I think some people see it as fulfilling their duty to the skydiving community as a whole.

Onto the issue at hand..

What's the hurry? The sky and the skydivers in it will still be there a year and 200(more) jumps from now. You are adding risk to the equation when you jump a camera, and for what? You're still learning a lot about just flying your body so if the pictures or video are any good, it will be purely by accident.

Is it really worth missing the chance to put the fear of god into your daughter's first boyfriend?

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Anvilbrother 0]

What do you know, your profile SAYS your a photographer, but does not show that you have any jumps in that discipline. Nice reserve wing loading also....

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[Anvilbrother 0]

P.S. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3813594;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=50;

You guys get worked up too easily. For a good reason tho. Knew the camera forum would be the best place to get someone riled up...

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[mccordia 73]

The point was made before, but what horrible things may happen if one waits a few jumps to jump a camera.

And without wanting to sound harsh, do we REALLY need more videos of empty bits of ground/sky and an awesome wideangle lens capturing small dots in the distance. If youtube is any reference.
Its the jump numbers that also help get people the skills to be able to frame what they want to shoot. And thats besides the fact that having a camera benefits everyone, besides the person filming.

Spending jumps having fun with friends and aquiring skills is more important than showing off on youtube..

Minimum requirements are there for a reason..keeping badly framed video of the internet

Chill, relax..unless you have some terminal illness...there is no rush.
And ANY experienced flyer with a camera will shoot better pix of you than a camera shooting your nose, ass or chin

People who get frustrated at rules, stop enjoying themselves, and turn a great thing into a stupid and annoying hurdle they need to pass in order to be able to have fun. It may sound lame, but enjoy the road..focus less on the destination (and eat vegetables, wear sunscreen, be nice to old people and dont eat yellow snow!)

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[monkycndo 0]

Jarno speaks from experience.

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and dont eat yellow snow!

It only took five times telling him to stop eating that snow before he finally quit doing it.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[marcantonio152 0]

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And as long as DZO's and S&TA's will let them on the plane with it your fighting a lost cause.

I think this one actually answered my post the best... I'm just a jumper, so even if I did say something it would be taken as pretty much meaningless. If our DZO or S&TA or any of the other old guys sitting around had said something... especially considering my DZO is a Command Master Sergeant... these guys would have probably listened. As far as the 100 jump guy, I don't really think he'd listen anymore. He's been listening too much to himself and a couple of his friends.

I'm now required to quit skydiving by the US Navy

[stratostar 5]

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I think this one actually answered my post the best...

That is because it's the only answer and has been going on for years in regards to lowtimers jumping cameras.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo