BMFin 0 #1 April 16, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhen I film a tandem that goes slow I just wear something baggier to adjust my fallrate When I had 600 jumps, that's how I did it too. Ditto. You can do tandem videos without them. How high do you set your standards? Your video can be better if you learn to use wings. If you just lay still in front of them, on level, and that's your standard, then no, you don't need wings. If you want to get better angles for better photos, especially getting very low and looking up at their face, get wings. Here's a few of my shots: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=31358&id=545871412&l=0271f5541b I think you are right. Wings will help you to shoot this angle you provided, unless you can backfly that angle. (which ofcourse is quite demanding) IMO its a good angle to include in the set, but it also has its downsides. What I have learned is that wuffos really cannot understand what is going on unless there is ground in the pic also. I dont think there is one good perfect angle that is better than anything else, but if I needed to choose just one it would propably be 8mm (on cropped sensor) from docking distance to the student from slightly above. This angle would include the student in the center, the TM , the drogue and the ground also. I dont have an 8mm, so I cannot exactly do it, but I included one where I have tried to get the same angle at 11mm. My picture doesnt get the drogue at the same time if I want to get the ground. 10mm isnt wide enough. I agree that not all people can take the "below" angle without wings. For those wings are a good help. Here are a couple of random videos from empuria without wings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgDOm71Vj3Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4R_wDpy8tw&feature=related If you can backfly you dont necessarily need wings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #2 April 16, 2009 With or without wings, you think you always can get out of the way during deployment when you're that far above the tandem? Perhaps I'm too conservative. BTW, another value to wings is that they can push you back if you need to backslide quickly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bdazel 0 #3 April 16, 2009 Quote If you can backfly you dont necessarily need wings. [emphasis added] And you don't necessarily need anything but a point and shoot or maybe Canon's cheap kit lens. You seem to have missed the point of many well-informed statements in this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #4 April 16, 2009 Quoteyou think you always can get out of the way during deployment when you're that far above the tandem? That's what I was thinking as I watched that video. Maybe they didn't hear about the incident in Richmond a few years ago, but I'm willing to bet they did, and that they feel like they have it 'under control'. If you watch the other video linked to that post, you'll see the video guy slides directly under the tandem on the hill. Another big mistake that people pay no attention to all the time. If have the skills to backfly with the tandems, you have the control to slide by them a few feet off to one side or the other. It's just careless, sloppy flying in both cases. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #5 April 16, 2009 Quote If you watch the other video linked to that post, you'll see the video guy slides directly under the tandem on the hill. Another big mistake that people pay no attention to all the time. If have the skills to backfly with the tandems, you have the control to slide by them a few feet off to one side or the other. May I ask what exactly makes it so dangerous to go under the tandem ? Premature deployment is very very small risk with modern freefly friendly gear. I agree that staying directly below the tandem is not a good thing since you steal air from them and this increases the speed. However, sliding under for a brief moment IMO is not such a big of a deal. Some TM´s prefer the videographer backflying the hill since the possibility to get tangled with the drogue is almost non existant this way. This argument supports it being safer on one way. Also one of the most valuable moments, the students face during exit, can be filmed this way. It is not possible if you rear float. This is a huge benefit also. The videos I randomly picked from youtube were to demonstrate that you dont need wings in order to film from the angle Lewmonst provided. They were not picked to represent the perfect example of tandem video that couldnt be critizized by others in any way. Im glad have a real discussion about cameraflying going on rather than just posting specs for new camera gear (which ocfourse is important also) Hopefully we all learn something from each other as we discuss these things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #6 April 16, 2009 QuoteThe videos I randomly picked from youtube were to demonstrate that you dont need wings in order to film from the angle Lewmonst provided. They were not picked to represent the perfect example of tandem video that couldnt be critizized by others in any way. You may not want them criticized by others in any way but the bottom line is that there are safety issues in the videos, and I'd expect anyone to bring them up regardless whether you want them criticized or not. The question I still have, "are you certain you can always get out of the way of a deploying tandem main when you're in that position?" I'm not sure I could. Quote Im glad have a real discussion about cameraflying going on rather than just posting specs for new camera gear (which ocfourse is important also) Hopefully we all learn something from each other as we discuss these things. The forum is here to discuss whatever you'd like to discuss as related to skydiving with cameras. Dialog about flying techniques is as welcome as discussions about camera technology. In other words, if there is a topic you'd like to share or ask about, a few keystrokes is all it takes.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PharmerPhil 0 #7 April 16, 2009 QuoteAlso one of the most valuable moments, the students face during exit, can be filmed this way. It is not possible if you rear float. Sure about that? Kinda depends on how you and the TM exit. http://www.philroberson.com/skydivephotos2008/082537.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bdazel 0 #8 April 16, 2009 Quote The question remains, "are you certain you can always get out of the way of a deploying tandem main when you're in that position?" I bet the guy from Richmond was certain he could handle the situation. Whether you're certain or not, we're all human and humans f-up. There's no excuse to repeat the mistakes of dead skydivers, especially when a tandem student is involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #9 April 16, 2009 >May I ask what exactly makes it so dangerous to go under the tandem ? 1) You will burble them; that can cause them to drop onto you 2) During a permature tandem deployment, the trap-door effect may take you out/break the student's legs. (And tandem premies are not uncommon due to panicky students and accessible drogue releases.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #10 April 16, 2009 Also of note since I see some people trying to backfly under tandems until the drogue gets set is that in the case of a collapsed drogue the tandem will continue to accelerate up to 170 mph so you might suddenly find the tandem falling right into you and the TM will have no choice but to fire the reserve before they reach tandem terminal no matter where you are so you might once again be in the path of the student legs as they swing out on deployment. Stay to the side and out of reach of the tandem no matter what since from the TM side the canopy could deploy at any moment and as a video guy you should not be in any position to interfere with them.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #11 April 16, 2009 Quote The question I still have, "are you certain you can always get out of the way of a deploying tandem main when you're in that position?" I'm not sure I could. Quote I agree with you that it is safer to stay on level at deployment time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #12 April 16, 2009 Quote 1) You will burble them; that can cause them to drop onto you 2) During a permature tandem deployment, the trap-door effect may take you out/break the student's legs. (And tandem premies are not uncommon due to panicky students and accessible drogue releases.) Yes, Like I said. Staying below is not good, sliding under isnt that big of a deal IMO. No real effect on the speed of the tandem (BTW. the DZ´s I have visited, premature deployments with tandem are uncommon indeed) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pattersd 0 #13 April 16, 2009 Why do you feel it is ok to add any risk to the tandem passenger? yes it is very unlikely that you will have a premature deployment at the exact instant that you are sliding underneath them, but it is a possibility. justifying what you want to do by saying it only increases the risk for someone else, who has no idea that what you are doing is increasing their risk, just seems to be bad form. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #14 April 16, 2009 QuoteYes, Like I said. Staying below is not good, sliding under isnt that big of a deal IMO. No real effect on the speed of the tandem (BTW. the DZ´s I have visited, premature deployments with tandem are uncommon indeed) Of course they are uncommon, nobody would jump the rigs if they were an everyday thing, but this is no reason not to be prepared for when they do happen. Students can and will pull handles at any time. Right out of the door, students have been known to grab handles. When the instructor signals the student to release the harness and bring their arms out is another time a handle will 'disappear'. I have never seen this first hand, but after seeing a video of a broken drouge bridle (which was brand new), I was impressed with how fast they picked up speed. If you were under them, you never would have had a chance. You say that a premature deployment on the camera flyers gear is rare. On a modern, properly maintained rig this true, but rare, and impossible are two different things. If you just stay out from under the tandem, the likelyhood of the premie is still rare, but the likelyhood of a collision with the tandem is now zero. If you read my post, you'll see the answer is simple. You can get close, but you need to slide along the outside edge of the tandems airspace. Just going straight under them is just stupid, and there's no reason for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 3 #15 April 16, 2009 Wandering thread.... I've never seen a premature deployment of a tandem, but have seen a drogue collapse after it inflated. I was in front of student/TI. If I can find it, I'll post a photo. I moved well off and continued to shoot. The increase in speed "felt" a lot different than a trapdoor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites velocityphoto 0 #16 April 16, 2009 I have experienced premature openings on tandems both while doing the tandem and while filming the tandem pair. Granted is not common but it does happen . Both were the of the same type of problem that caused them "drogue released early by accident" A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites velocityphoto 0 #17 April 16, 2009 So you don;'t think flying up under a tandem is a big deal? And it doesn't cause the tandem to speedup ? All of these things being discussed here are the very reason you need a tandem rating to jump with tandems and film. A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #18 April 17, 2009 >sliding under isnt that big of a deal IMO. Unless he has a premature (or student initiated) deployment at that time. Tandem students can freak out and pull due to relatively minor 'scares.' (Like, say, someone under them.) I've had it happen twice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lewmonst 0 #19 April 17, 2009 Quote>May I ask what exactly makes it so dangerous to go under the tandem ? 1) You will burble them; that can cause them to drop onto you 2) During a permature tandem deployment, the trap-door effect may take you out/break the student's legs. (And tandem premies are not uncommon due to panicky students and accessible drogue releases.) 3) if you have a premature directly under them... imagine that. Need I elaborate? I'll sitfly/backfly low enough to see drogue but not directly underneath. As I see any hand move towards a drogue release, I will sideslide to the pull side for opening. I can match the trap door fallrate easily changing my sit/backfly position, but still, not directly below them. And as I video the opening, I'm backtracking and I turn my head sideways to get vertical opening photos. Just part of my routine. And, please, please, please don't ever ever film a tandem opening from above (like that second youtube video just posted). I miss Sean.http://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pierre3636 0 #20 April 17, 2009 commenting on second youtube clip - i like your deployment secquence - very cool - obviously you dont want to get any closer than that! ~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites velocityphoto 0 #21 April 17, 2009 I see a lot of free flying going on ,and not much of what the video should be about. "THE STUDENT" Remember it's about the student not free flying. Multiple times in both of these video's i see camera to close to the top of the drogue where a parachute might open and be in your face. Lets not forget ,this is the passengers 1st skydive , the entire video should be about them . A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PharmerPhil 0 #22 April 17, 2009 QuoteI see a lot of free flying going on ,and not much of what the video should be about. "THE STUDENT" I agree. Unfortunately, I see a lot of so-called "tandem" videos like this. Adding every possible flying trick in the book, and every possible angle (regardless of whether it showcases the student and his/her jump) doesn't usually make for a memorable video. Videos are better judged by the reaction of the student, and his/her family and friends. Not by the reaction of other skydivers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Superfletch 1 #23 April 17, 2009 QuoteI see a lot of free flying going on ,and not much of what the video should be about. "THE STUDENT" Remember it's about the student not free flying. Multiple times in both of these video's i see camera to close to the top of the drogue where a parachute might open and be in your face. Lets not forget ,this is the passengers 1st skydive , the entire video should be about them . I agree that the tandem video should be about the student and excessive freeflying takes away from that however I didn't feel that was the case with those videos. I saw a cartwheel transition but that only took a second, it's not like he was orbiting headdown with the tandem being upside down for 10 secs. I thought the videographer mixed it up pretty nice and got a lot of attractive angles. The video to me seemed to be very much about the student. Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I Videographer/Photographer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vdschoor 0 #24 April 17, 2009 Quote. I thought the videographer mixed it up pretty nice and got a lot of attractive angles. The video to me seemed to be very much about the student. I agree, the videographer did a decent job of recording the experience. It's a balance, I don't like the videos where the videographer is in the face of the student for 60 seconds, and I don't like the ones where the videographer is all over the place, it's a balance. You are hired to tell the story of their first jump, and part of that experience is their facial expression (close up) and part of that is showing what's going on (backing away and doing a "scenery shot") As long as movements are smooth and not too fast in the video, it looks good. I let the tandem do the spinning for me instead of me carving / side sliding around the tandem, for the very simple reason that a lot of movement turns it into a shaky video and a lot of people actually don't even like a video with a lot of movement. They just want to see THEM jumping out of an airplane. I found that when showing videos to "whuffos" the videos they like the best are the "boring" ones, your mad flying skills don't impress them, cause they have no clue as to what it takes to be able to fly like that. But if you show a whuffo a video that is well framed, not shaking, and lit well.. they DO see the skill in that. Just my 2cts.... and regarding going all the way up to the drogue on opening.. I like that shot, but it's just too dangerous... as Lew said as well, our friends have been caught by surprise by an opening canopy.... be safe out there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaGimp 0 #25 April 17, 2009 Quotebut have seen a drogue collapse after it inflated I do alot of backflying with tandems and I have seen this, the kill line for the drogue snapped, drogue deflated and the tandem pair increased in speed imencly and immediately, if I was underneath it would have deffinatly caused injury to myself and the passenger."Professor of Pimpology"~~~Bolas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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BMFin 0 #12 April 16, 2009 Quote 1) You will burble them; that can cause them to drop onto you 2) During a permature tandem deployment, the trap-door effect may take you out/break the student's legs. (And tandem premies are not uncommon due to panicky students and accessible drogue releases.) Yes, Like I said. Staying below is not good, sliding under isnt that big of a deal IMO. No real effect on the speed of the tandem (BTW. the DZ´s I have visited, premature deployments with tandem are uncommon indeed) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pattersd 0 #13 April 16, 2009 Why do you feel it is ok to add any risk to the tandem passenger? yes it is very unlikely that you will have a premature deployment at the exact instant that you are sliding underneath them, but it is a possibility. justifying what you want to do by saying it only increases the risk for someone else, who has no idea that what you are doing is increasing their risk, just seems to be bad form. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #14 April 16, 2009 QuoteYes, Like I said. Staying below is not good, sliding under isnt that big of a deal IMO. No real effect on the speed of the tandem (BTW. the DZ´s I have visited, premature deployments with tandem are uncommon indeed) Of course they are uncommon, nobody would jump the rigs if they were an everyday thing, but this is no reason not to be prepared for when they do happen. Students can and will pull handles at any time. Right out of the door, students have been known to grab handles. When the instructor signals the student to release the harness and bring their arms out is another time a handle will 'disappear'. I have never seen this first hand, but after seeing a video of a broken drouge bridle (which was brand new), I was impressed with how fast they picked up speed. If you were under them, you never would have had a chance. You say that a premature deployment on the camera flyers gear is rare. On a modern, properly maintained rig this true, but rare, and impossible are two different things. If you just stay out from under the tandem, the likelyhood of the premie is still rare, but the likelyhood of a collision with the tandem is now zero. If you read my post, you'll see the answer is simple. You can get close, but you need to slide along the outside edge of the tandems airspace. Just going straight under them is just stupid, and there's no reason for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #15 April 16, 2009 Wandering thread.... I've never seen a premature deployment of a tandem, but have seen a drogue collapse after it inflated. I was in front of student/TI. If I can find it, I'll post a photo. I moved well off and continued to shoot. The increase in speed "felt" a lot different than a trapdoor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velocityphoto 0 #16 April 16, 2009 I have experienced premature openings on tandems both while doing the tandem and while filming the tandem pair. Granted is not common but it does happen . Both were the of the same type of problem that caused them "drogue released early by accident" A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velocityphoto 0 #17 April 16, 2009 So you don;'t think flying up under a tandem is a big deal? And it doesn't cause the tandem to speedup ? All of these things being discussed here are the very reason you need a tandem rating to jump with tandems and film. A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #18 April 17, 2009 >sliding under isnt that big of a deal IMO. Unless he has a premature (or student initiated) deployment at that time. Tandem students can freak out and pull due to relatively minor 'scares.' (Like, say, someone under them.) I've had it happen twice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #19 April 17, 2009 Quote>May I ask what exactly makes it so dangerous to go under the tandem ? 1) You will burble them; that can cause them to drop onto you 2) During a permature tandem deployment, the trap-door effect may take you out/break the student's legs. (And tandem premies are not uncommon due to panicky students and accessible drogue releases.) 3) if you have a premature directly under them... imagine that. Need I elaborate? I'll sitfly/backfly low enough to see drogue but not directly underneath. As I see any hand move towards a drogue release, I will sideslide to the pull side for opening. I can match the trap door fallrate easily changing my sit/backfly position, but still, not directly below them. And as I video the opening, I'm backtracking and I turn my head sideways to get vertical opening photos. Just part of my routine. And, please, please, please don't ever ever film a tandem opening from above (like that second youtube video just posted). I miss Sean.http://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pierre3636 0 #20 April 17, 2009 commenting on second youtube clip - i like your deployment secquence - very cool - obviously you dont want to get any closer than that! ~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velocityphoto 0 #21 April 17, 2009 I see a lot of free flying going on ,and not much of what the video should be about. "THE STUDENT" Remember it's about the student not free flying. Multiple times in both of these video's i see camera to close to the top of the drogue where a parachute might open and be in your face. Lets not forget ,this is the passengers 1st skydive , the entire video should be about them . A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PharmerPhil 0 #22 April 17, 2009 QuoteI see a lot of free flying going on ,and not much of what the video should be about. "THE STUDENT" I agree. Unfortunately, I see a lot of so-called "tandem" videos like this. Adding every possible flying trick in the book, and every possible angle (regardless of whether it showcases the student and his/her jump) doesn't usually make for a memorable video. Videos are better judged by the reaction of the student, and his/her family and friends. Not by the reaction of other skydivers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superfletch 1 #23 April 17, 2009 QuoteI see a lot of free flying going on ,and not much of what the video should be about. "THE STUDENT" Remember it's about the student not free flying. Multiple times in both of these video's i see camera to close to the top of the drogue where a parachute might open and be in your face. Lets not forget ,this is the passengers 1st skydive , the entire video should be about them . I agree that the tandem video should be about the student and excessive freeflying takes away from that however I didn't feel that was the case with those videos. I saw a cartwheel transition but that only took a second, it's not like he was orbiting headdown with the tandem being upside down for 10 secs. I thought the videographer mixed it up pretty nice and got a lot of attractive angles. The video to me seemed to be very much about the student. Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I Videographer/Photographer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vdschoor 0 #24 April 17, 2009 Quote. I thought the videographer mixed it up pretty nice and got a lot of attractive angles. The video to me seemed to be very much about the student. I agree, the videographer did a decent job of recording the experience. It's a balance, I don't like the videos where the videographer is in the face of the student for 60 seconds, and I don't like the ones where the videographer is all over the place, it's a balance. You are hired to tell the story of their first jump, and part of that experience is their facial expression (close up) and part of that is showing what's going on (backing away and doing a "scenery shot") As long as movements are smooth and not too fast in the video, it looks good. I let the tandem do the spinning for me instead of me carving / side sliding around the tandem, for the very simple reason that a lot of movement turns it into a shaky video and a lot of people actually don't even like a video with a lot of movement. They just want to see THEM jumping out of an airplane. I found that when showing videos to "whuffos" the videos they like the best are the "boring" ones, your mad flying skills don't impress them, cause they have no clue as to what it takes to be able to fly like that. But if you show a whuffo a video that is well framed, not shaking, and lit well.. they DO see the skill in that. Just my 2cts.... and regarding going all the way up to the drogue on opening.. I like that shot, but it's just too dangerous... as Lew said as well, our friends have been caught by surprise by an opening canopy.... be safe out there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaGimp 0 #25 April 17, 2009 Quotebut have seen a drogue collapse after it inflated I do alot of backflying with tandems and I have seen this, the kill line for the drogue snapped, drogue deflated and the tandem pair increased in speed imencly and immediately, if I was underneath it would have deffinatly caused injury to myself and the passenger."Professor of Pimpology"~~~Bolas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
