azureriders 0 #26 October 15, 2009 Quoteshah269 Couldn't all this be avoided via a simple pin check? Could it? Sure • Should it? absolutely • Will it? I wouldn't bet my life on it. Be prepared, have a plan Quoteshah269 For the record I think the SIM indicates to look left then right so allow better air flow to the Pilot. If that does not solve the mal then to "cut" and deploy reserve. The SIM section 5-1-E lists both options as having pros an cons with no preference given Quotebclark A total by definition means that the main CONTAINER is closed. Thus there is no deployment of the main. A pilot chute in tow is a total. Checking the SIM also in section 5-1-E, you are correct and I stand corrected. I have heard both your definition as well as mine, but did not realize that was clarified in the SIM. I still like my definition though, it gives the student a Black and White understanding of when and when not to go straight to silver in this situation. QuoteBrianM You can easily tell them apart by looking at them. It will be obvious which you have. According to ghost47’s profile, the guy your post was replying to, he has 240 jumps, 2 yrs in the sport, and only 78 posts to DZ.com. At this point I would strongly agree with you, he should be easily able to tell the difference between a PC in tow and a bag lock, even if neither of them stands him up. I will however caution that no matter how much you educate students, some of them will still follow up with questions that will baffle you. The possibility of mis identifying a PC in tow and a bag lock is one of the reasons I teach to cut either away. Just my opinion. QuoteBrianM I would always identify the problem before trying to rectify it. Again I will agree with you as I, and most that are reading this hopefully, will be identifying a PC in tow before dealing with it. I will still caution about this comment with students. Put them in a hanging harness and ask them to identify malfunctions then react, or simply have them determine if the canopy is S.S.S. then react. I find that the reaction time is extremely different. It is always entertaining to show a picture of a bag lock and have someone call out “Line Twist” then watch their face when you ask them, “but is it Square?” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #27 October 15, 2009 I disagree, its my personal choice. and its what i was taught in my first jump course and have personally dealt with twice. Both times the main came out after the reserve.Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #28 October 15, 2009 QuoteI disagree, its my personal choice. and its what i was taught in my first jump course and have personally dealt with twice. Both times the main came out after the reserve. As of this writing, your profile says you have 7 jumps and 1 year in. Is that accurate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #29 October 15, 2009 Yeah, and your point?Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ghost47 18 #30 October 15, 2009 QuoteAccording to ghost47’s profile, the guy your post was replying to, he has 240 jumps, 2 yrs in the sport, and only 78 posts to DZ.com. At this point I would strongly agree with you, he should be easily able to tell the difference between a PC in tow and a bag lock, even if neither of them stands him up. I will however caution that no matter how much you educate students, some of them will still follow up with questions that will baffle you. The possibility of mis identifying a PC in tow and a bag lock is one of the reasons I teach to cut either away. Just my opinion. My profile is accurate -- I do have 240 jumps. It's actually closer to 1.5 years in the sport (first jump in May 2008), but there was no option for half years. I don't doubt that I could tell the difference between a bag lock and a pilot chute in tow by looking at them. What I'm wondering is, how long would it take me to do so? (I've never seen either in the air, only on youtube vids or those pictures of mals you see in class.) In other words, I'm thinking the sequence goes something like: Arch, reach, pull Realize I'm not being pulled vertical Twist, to look over my shoulder (and possibly dislodge the pilot chute from my burble) See mostly sky, and no opening canopy -- how long would it take to make sure there is no flying black bag? Half a second? One second? Two seconds? At half a second, it would be quicker to realize there is no bag lock, and pull the reserve. At two seconds, maybe it would be quicker (or at least the same speed) to cut-away and pull reserve as soon as I saw no opening canopy. (This is not to say that there might not be other reasons not to cut away before pulling reserve. I'm just wondering about the argument that it's quicker to not cut away.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #31 October 15, 2009 QuoteYeah, and your point? No need to be defensive, brother. But 2 PCITs in 7 total career jumps is a pretty high ratio. Tell you what, I'll step back and let others weigh in on whether that's worthy of interest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #32 October 15, 2009 I had a PCIT at jump ~278. I cut away then res. I have now changed my procedure to reserve and take a chance of 2 out. The reason is when i had a PCIT I checked over my shoulder twice and couldn't get it to clear. So after i cutaway and went to reserve. I look up to see my main bridle wrapped around (1 time) both right res. risers then around the l.f. res. riser 1.5 time's. If my main had came out of the bag due to released tension on container, there is a very good chance that my main bridle would have went up my reserve lines and cut off my reserve. BTW the PCIT was caused by my hackey going up through the bridle connection point (at the base of the pilot chute) and getting stuck. It was not a maint. issue. Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #33 October 15, 2009 Quote This is especially an issue for high performance mains. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Yep, that's the choice. That's why I hedge my advice on this one. There's definitely a roll of the dice either way.That's why I jump a pullout. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #34 October 15, 2009 Quote Quote I disagree, its my personal choice. and its what i was taught in my first jump course and have personally dealt with twice. Both times the main came out after the reserve. As of this writing, your profile says you have 7 jumps and 1 year in. Is that accurate? Maybe he thinks pilot chute in tow is when it trails behind the canopy after opening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #35 October 15, 2009 Quote Quote Yeah, and your point? No need to be defensive, brother. But 2 PCITs in 7 total career jumps is a pretty high ratio. Tell you what, I'll step back and let others weigh in on whether that's worthy of interest. Do you really need to wait for others to say the obvious? (no!) One and/or both are issues. Gear or pete jones. What kind of rental gear you jump petejones? Or your AFF I's need to quit causing burblesNothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #36 October 15, 2009 Quote Quote Quote I disagree, its my personal choice. and its what i was taught in my first jump course and have personally dealt with twice. Both times the main came out after the reserve. As of this writing, your profile says you have 7 jumps and 1 year in. Is that accurate? Maybe he thinks pilot chute in tow is when it trails behind the canopy after opening. Lets hope!Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #37 October 15, 2009 Your reasoning is very sound and don't for a second think that any of my comments are an atempt to change your decisions. I think you will be supprised at how fast your mind is capable of processing data, now whether or not you can react on that data is another story. My bag lock as I recall it in regards to your timing concerns: Pitched out just under 3 grand. Deployment felt funny from the time it left my back and I was not being stood up (yet). Glanced over my shoulder and instantly saw the bag lock. IMO, in the amount of time that it would take for the changed air to have pushed a PC out of my burble, I had already identified the bag lock, so no time lost here, or at least not much. As I am returning to the Arch and reaching for handles, my mind is processing the data that my eyes have just captured but are no longer looking at, how there was a small portion of fabric out of the bag, and how it apeared that only half of my lines were taunt and loced, while the other half seemed to have slack in them and blowing in the wind. As I am making sure I have a good grip I am wondering why it did not stand me up, I mean I have read that sometimes they dont, but with even the smallest amount of fabric out, really? Then just before I begin to pull red, my feet swing under me, I chop and check for release of the three rings, they cleared on their own and I was quickly falling back to a belly to earth position. With the cutaway cable still in hand, my right arm extends out in front of me to catch me from going head low as I pull silver. Unstow the breaks and check altitude under a good reserve, 1700 ft. Finding the airport I am thinking about what all just happened and how much altitude was lost and deciding that it was not bad at all. Now that is just some of the data my mind was processing that I still remember, I do not feel that I process things any faster than the average person and for sure not faster than the average skydiver. The point is that your mind, and your eyes, are pretty quick. The only thing that may have given me an advantage over you if you were to find your self in a similiar situation any time soon, this was my 5th cutaway and I did know what to expect. So keep thinking, keep making decisions, keep having a plan, and keep sticking to that plan, no matter what your plan is. I know that the above tale is about a bag lock and not a PC in tow, however ghost47 was concerned with identifing the difference between the two so I do not feel like a highjacker at all Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #38 October 15, 2009 Baglock = you see the bag. PCIT = you don't see the bag. Both = you don't have a canopy. I've had two hesitations but no PCITs & they scared the crap out of me, to the point I reached straight for reserve which cleared the PC. It was a gear issue as confirmed by an experienced friend having a PCH with my rig. After he landed & told me what happened, I walked directly to the gear shop & replaced the PC. I handled the situation poorly and only inadvertently resolved the issue the correct way. I have had a cutaway which wasn't a problem for me but the high speed was much worse. As for two PCIT in 7 jumps, great training but you ought to go talk to your instructors about it, like soon! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianM 1 #39 October 15, 2009 QuoteSee mostly sky, and no opening canopy -- how long would it take to make sure there is no flying black bag? Half a second? One second? Two seconds? At half a second, it would be quicker to realize there is no bag lock, and pull the reserve. At two seconds, maybe it would be quicker (or at least the same speed) to cut-away and pull reserve as soon as I saw no opening canopy. You can see a PCIT by looking over your shoulder. You don't need to wait a while to make sure you don't see the dbag - you can see the PC! One very quick glance will tell you exactly what you have - and as I said before, I'm already taking that time to look anyway in order to see what's going on, because it could be something else entirely (PC in burble, PC wrapped on leg, etc). Edit: It just occurred to me that you may have meant the difficulty between seeing if the dbag is there in addition to the PC, or if it is just the PC. I originally understood you to mean that you were looking for either the bag, or just empty sky, and wanted to be sure that you hadn't missed the bag. In that case - I think a PC sitting ~8 feet above you at the end of the bridle would look very different from a bunch of lines, with a dbag above that, then a bridle and PC ~8 feet above above that. When I had my PCIT in April, it was very obvious what was going on the instant I looked over my shoulder."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lost_n_confuzd 0 #40 October 15, 2009 Hopefully some of you saltier jumpers will chime in on this and help me out. With a PCIT the container is still closed; if you cutaway, in my mind, it seems the only thing you would accomplish would be seperating the 3-ring and having 2 flailing risers to worry about vice *only* a PCIT. Would the flailing risers be enough "drag" (for lack of a better term) to clear the main (d-bag and all) from the jumper? The container is already closed, so what would cutting away accomplish if there is no "drag" to pull the main (et all) away from the jumper? I understand the risk of having two out, jarring the container open, etc... I'm just trying to understand how cutting away would achieve anything at all other than seperating the risers from the harness if the container is already closed and the PC is not effective. Maybe I'm over analyzing this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #41 October 15, 2009 QuoteMaybe I'm over analyzing thisCrazy You still missed a step. Your altitude? Id cut it away mine, because I got time to do it so. Under 300m Id just open my reserve, other thing that I'm not going so low without a working canopy anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianM 1 #42 October 15, 2009 Quote With a PCIT the container is still closed; if you cutaway, in my mind, it seems the only thing you would accomplish would be seperating the 3-ring and having 2 flailing risers to worry about vice *only* a PCIT. The riser covers should keep the risers from flailing around much. Without any tension on the risers to separate the rings, the risers may not go anywhere at all even without riser covers. Quote Would the flailing risers be enough "drag" (for lack of a better term) to clear the main (d-bag and all) from the jumper? No. Even if they were flailing about, the risers would not be pulling on the pin. You need either more pull force on the pin (from the PC/bridle) or less tension on the closing loop to open the container. Quote I understand the risk of having two out, jarring the container open, etc... That is the reason for cutting away first, if you choose that option. When the reserve leaves the container, it reduces pressure on the top side of the main container, allowing the main to bulge out in that direction, and reducing tension on the closing loop. This is often sufficient to allow the PC to extract the pin, and the main then begins deploying at the same time as the reserve, risking a main/reserve entanglement. If you've already cut away, the PC should pull the bagged main away as soon as it puts a bit of tension on the risers. This doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of it fouling the reserve, of course... Quote Maybe I'm over analyzing this Not at all. Understanding what can happen, and the pros and cons of various courses of action, just might save your life one day."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lost_n_confuzd 0 #43 October 15, 2009 My question/concern was not one of time, altitude, or which EP is better. It was more of a how, than a why, would cutting away be effective if there is no drag to "away" the "cut". Seems like the only thing that would happen would be the release of the 3-ring from the harness without any seperation of the main from the jumper. Hope that explained it better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lost_n_confuzd 0 #44 October 15, 2009 QuoteThat is the reason for cutting away first, Thanks. I was a bit confused because some posters were answering as if cutting away would eliminate the "PC - reserve" entanglement. So wether cutting away or not, in most cases, the PCIT is still there; cutting away just allows the main to freely jetison/seperate (hopefully) from the jumper during the opening shock of the reserve. Is this the logic behind cutting away a PCIT? Thanks, I needed the Barney style answer, lol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #45 October 15, 2009 Quotewould cutting away be effective if there is no drag to "away" the "cut". Seems like the only thing that would happen would be the release of the 3-ring from the harness without any seperation of the main from the jumper. The main pack tray might open later, because the reserve side is getting loose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #46 October 15, 2009 proper packing and good gear maintenance should prevent such a scenario..... but since shit happens... thinking about such an issue ahead of time is quite helpful,,,,, should we ever be faced with it... as for "the container stays closed", with a PCIT..... yes hopefully... decades ago. I had a PCIT on a rig with a bellyband mounted pilot chute pouch... ( Huh?? well yes,, it was before legstrap pouches and waay before BOCs...) i had twisted the B band while gearing up and so when i deployed... The bridle pulled, shear, THROUGH the twist, and the Pin DID extract..... i was head down and feet down, and was spinning, since the Pc was "tied up " at my hip.... wasted NO time thinking about the R 3 cutaway hardware... since it would have only contributed more problems to the situation.. I DID take the moment to get flat and stable...FELT the extracted D Bag, hit me on the back of my legs, and pulled a blast handle,,,, immediately... sending a round 26 foot lopo, UP and through the mess... only then saw what had happened,,, reeled in the main D bag, stuffed it between my legs, and flew the reserve to a safe landing.... cutting away, would have wasted time, and been a bad move, since the top of the canopy was STILL tied to my hip... learned ALOT that day,, today????? if it happened??? flat and stable,, pull silver... END the freefall, then deal with ANything having to do with the main,,, as needed... tough situation. Check your gear. learn from the experiences of others... be very specific in the routing of your PC bridle...and Cock your pilot chute.... That is all....... jmy A 3914 D 12122 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #47 October 15, 2009 The biggest advantage to pulling both handles is that it eliminates the decision time for "do I pull one or both" from the process. Instead of a second or two lost deciding on which EP to follow, just execute. My only PCIT was packed by a 12 year old packer (who is now a nationally know figure in the sport, but will remain nameless) about 10 years ago. He'd been packing for his dad and others for a couple of years at the time. Deployed, felt funny, looked, looked down and pulled both in sequence, and was under canopy above 1/2 the load. Bottom line, having a "standard procedure" for high speed function might save a couple of seconds or more, especially for a low time jumper. Is there a possible down side to deploying both? Yes, but it beats going in while trying to decide. This thread seems to be broadening to include bag locks and horseshoes, which are not the same and deserve their own threads. Don't get confused, I'm talking about PCIT only here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 1 #48 October 15, 2009 QuoteI disagree, its my personal choice. and its what i was taught in my first jump course and have personally dealt with twice. Both times the main came out after the reserve. Two PCITs in your first year, and very early jump numbers? Who packed those rigs? That seems to be a collapse of risk management, at the least. I hope you've since identified and dealt with that issue. You successfully dealt with two malfunctions. Props only for that. I don't question the success but I do question the pathway. Success doesn't equate to best action, but more qualified and experienced jumpers than me have found that they cannot decide the better of two courses of action so I have no criticism whatsoever of your choice of action. As you said, it is personal choice. I will choose (and rehearse for) a different action, if I ever face a PCIT. I consider a reserve pull to be a higher priority than the worry of a possible two-out situation."Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #49 October 15, 2009 QuoteThe biggest advantage to pulling both handles is that it eliminates the decision time for "do I pull one or both" from the process. Instead of a second or two lost deciding on which EP to follow, just execute. .... Bottom line, having a "standard procedure" for high speed function might save a couple of seconds or more, especially for a low time jumper. Is there a possible down side to deploying both? Yes, but it beats going in while trying to decide. I still say that, more often than not, there is less time/altitude wasted with "think.. find & pull silver" than with either "(Method 1) find & grab red, find & grab silver, peel & pull red, pull silver" and especially with "(Method 2) find & grab red with both hands, peel & punch, clear cables with left arm, find & grab silver, pull silver". I also notice that Method 2 is becoming the more popular partial mal EP that is taught in FJCs these days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #50 October 15, 2009 QuoteI still say that, more often than not, there is less time/altitude wasted with "think.. find & pull silver" than with either "(Method 1) find & grab red, find & grab silver, peel & pull red, pull silver" and especially with "(Method 2) find & grab red with both hands, peel & punch, clear cables with left arm, find & grab silver, pull silver". I also notice that Method 2 is becoming the more popular partial mal EP that is taught in FJCs these days. Agreed. One issue with the "Cutaway First" method is that the handles are sometimes difficult to locate in a slack harness, as opposed to a hanging harness that most training is done with. If someone feels that they MUST complete the Cutaway Handle pull prior to starting the Reserve pull, then there is the potential to lose a LOT of time before even starting to reach for the reserve. The Cutaway First method seeks to avoid a "possible" problem (two out), whereas the Reserve First method addresses a "definite" problem (High Speed Dirt). I find it interesting that the poll shows a lot of folks who were trained in the Cutaway First method do not plan to use it in a real emergency. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
