camman -hand cam

[tqsmile 0]

Interested to hear what the feelings are out there about tandem handcam and camman taking a back seat.I did alot of tandem video and when Handcam came in was sitting on the ground a lot so got me a handcam.What are the feelings out there?

TQ
I am me and you are you, so deal with it!!!
www.skydivepe.com

[PhreeZone 15]

Outside of a few Cessna DZ's here in the states Handcam really hasn't been that widely adopted.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[freefalle 0]

if you do a search there was a pretty heated thread about handi-cam video's personally, Im not a fan of them, I don't like the results as a TM I don't like flying with a camera on my wrist. Maybe I could get used to it, but I don't ever think I would like it.

[Fast 0]

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Outside of a few Cessna DZ's here in the states Handcam really hasn't been that widely adopted.

Good for me because I'm not planning on getting a tandem rating because it just doesn't sit well with me and I don't think I would be good at it. I am loving being a video guy though and I'm pretty good at it to boot.

So, I don't like the idea because it would put me out of work and I wouldn't be able to skydive w/o doing something I am not comfortable with (tandems)

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Kimblair13 0]

I think hand cam is alot better than most people give it credit.
If you're an outside video dude you most likey will only have bad things to say about hand cam.
If you have little or no hand cam personal experience you will probably only have bad things to say about hand cam.
Just like outside video there are good AND bad hand cam videos.
If you aren't a competent instructor, you won't be a competent instructor with hand cam...
...therefore, incompetent instructors should not be doing hand cam (or tandems).
Hand cam is not something you just throw on yer wrist and hope you get a good shot...people that do this only give hand cam a bad name, please stop.
There should probably be more rules and guidelines as to who can do hand cam.
Those are my opionions.

[NSEMN8R 0]

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There should probably be more rules and guidelines as to who can do hand cam.

I agree with everything you said except for that.

[Kimblair13 0]

So you think someone that just finished their phase II jumps can get right on doing hc?

[riggerrob 558]

No!

The Australian Parachute Federation has published an exhaustive set of guidelines (minimum 100 tandems, briefing by Chief instructor, etc.) and advice about how and when to strap on a hand-mounted camera.

While Australian guidelines are not law in other countries, they are "best practices."
Anyone operating outside of Australian guidelines will stand alone in court.

Listen to the - Australian - experts, because you will never live long enough to learn all the lessons on your own.

[Kimblair13 0]

Why do you think the States haven't adopted these guidelines?

[riggerrob 558]

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Why do you think the States haven't adopted these guidelines?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

For the same reasons that USPA has not tried to duplicate the APF's master list of service bulletins: there have been few fatalities (read zero).

Secondly, the Australians have done such a good job - at setting hand-cam standards - that any other nation would be hard-pressed to improve on the Australian standard.

The third factor is that few Americans do hand-cam, compared with the thousands that are done every week in Australia and New Zealand.

Fourth, Australian standards may not be LAW in the USA, but they are best practices/state of the art/call it what you will.
If an American TI every gets sued - and the prosecuting attorney can prove that he ignored Australian standards (the defacto planetary standard) - he is on his own!

[jtval 0]

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If you're an outside video dude you most likey will only have bad things to say about hand cam.

I am that guy I think handcam should be supplemental to out side cam.

some of the tandem mills around here offer "vid and sills package" then they give the student the video and 24 frame grabs.

thats why I dislike the handcam. because people are being robbed.

Ive had a handful of students tell me they went to the other dz and if they had known the quality of the product was so poor they wouldn't have bought it.

then they see our product and are a happy skydive customer.

I'm sure there are a lot that dont notice the diff but does that make it right?

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[Kimblair13 0]

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Secondly, the Australians have done such a good job - at setting hand-cam standards - that any other nation would be hard-pressed to improve on the Australian standard.

True. But those standards could atleast be met! Most places in the States either don't care or don't realize that their hand cam footage is pretty much shit. Which is why most people in the States think hand cam IS shit, cuz that's all they see. Hand cam footage really can be very nice!

[karenmeal 0]

I think that the cost of a tandem video done with handycam should be AT LEAST the cost of a normal video minus a jumpticket. It gives a cool view under canopy, but I think the experience of actually having a videographer flying with them is really cool for tandems, not to mention that seeing the big picture is also cool.

I agree with Kim that there should be more rules about it.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[jtval 0]

LOL at the DZ"s I mentioned they charge $25 MORE than what we charge.

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[tqsmile 0]

I think it also depends on the size of the DZ and availability of outside vidiots.We are a small DZ Tandem ops an all three of us TI's are also outside vidiots.We are lucky that our handcam videos are not bad and our customers are always happy.If there is a blunder we will do what we can to have them leave happy.You can make a handcam video look very good and it takes practice to get the shots while flying the Tandem,once you find your place cool videos come.I however still think that outside video will have its place.With hand cam you need fewer people and a small DZ can do more tandems.
I still miss doing outside video,but bills need to be paid

TQ
I am me and you are you, so deal with it!!!
www.skydivepe.com

[jtval 0]

I understand that. And in he general sense I am not opposed to handcam, but I am opposed to how I've seen it handled.

it should be cheaper than outside video and frame grabs are not pictures. I never faulted the TM for it

If I had to eat (and was a TM) I would try to get a job at that those dz's...except that they only go to 7-8 k agl. and advertise 15k, last I looked. I don't like answering questions that I have to like about. I couldn't be a happy employee at a place like that.
For a place like Vegas to have only one dropzone that allows fun jumpers seems absurd to me.
its year round jumping with a cool party town.

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[tqsmile 0]

If I had to eat (and was a TM) I would try to get a job at that those dz's...except that they only go to 7-8 k agl. and advertise 15k, last I looked. I don't like answering questions that I have to lie about. I couldn't be a happy employee at a place like that.
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I agree with you there.I would not work for such a DZ either.Used to be in that situation and now work for a DZ where I am Happy.

TQ
I am me and you are you, so deal with it!!!
www.skydivepe.com

[skydived19006 4]

I’m DZO at a small (one 182) DZ in Wichita Kansas. We offer hand cam ($50.00), and outside video with stills ($85.00). I and one other TI do all the tandems, and all the video. If we did 10 tandems in a day all with outside video, we’d obviously be on 10 loads (20 pack jobs), with one odd slot for a fun jumper to tag along, leaving maybe 6 loads for fun jumpers, and students throughout the day. With hand cam those same 10 tandems will go on 5 loads, leaving 11 loads for fun jumpers, students, etc. In reality, we could do a max of 8 tandems in a long day out of a 182 if all had traditional video, we can do easily do 12 to 14 with hand cam. Both of us had in the neighborhood of 1000 tandems before ever strapping on the camera.

For us its simple economics, the hand cam frees up the airplane for something other than tandem, and it reduces the TI/Vidiots work load. If I were DZO with a turbine aircraft, needed to fill slots, had a line of vidiots waiting to work, etc. the situation is about 180 degrees out of phase with my situation.

IMO the “real value” of traditional video are the stills. You can do so much more with the stills, carry them to the bar, work, school, etc with you, load them on your computer, post on the internet, make a colander, frame it and hang it in your living room next to your first jump certificate, tattoo it on your ass, etc. With video, it seems to me that people will force as many people as they can watch it for a few days, then it goes in a cabinet, and they watch it once every few years.

The advantage of hand cam for the student is that they get canopy ride footage and interview. There are some interesting angles, and shots with hand cam on the plane, in freefall, and under canopy (now hard right and look up at the canopy/camera (earth spinning below, student screaming), now hard left and look down at the camera (canopy, horizon spinning above, student screaming) They “get to jump with their buddy” which in a 182 can not happen with traditional video. Mark and I also generally will fly within 15’ or so under canopy and film each other for a few seconds (not suggesting that everyone do this). Our normal exit altitude is 10k, but once in a while we hit a ceiling at 7, or 8k. 7,000’ gives about 12 seconds to shoot outside video, HC gives 12 seconds of freefall, all with tight video, and as much as 5 min under canopy. Oh, it’s $35 cheaper.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[tqsmile 0]

I agree totally,we also fly close under canopy and get good shots,passangers really enjoy the vid seeing their mate or partner close under canopy

TQ
I am me and you are you, so deal with it!!!
www.skydivepe.com

[riggerrob 558]

Just remind the other TI to fly on your right side.

[skydived19006 4]

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Just remind the other TI to fly on your right side.

We're often both running hand cam, if the other tandem is on my left, I just flip the camera upside down.

Another issue 182 DZs have constantly is two tandem students who want to be on the same load. Can't do it with outside video.

I don't officially offer a "gold package" with both hand can and outside video, but we've done it a few times. The main reason I don't really advertise it, is that it doesn't "fit" into our edit. We'll generally just throw the hand cam video on at the end of the "normal edit."

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ