Agonizing between 15mm and 10-22

[Fast 0]

I can't make up my mind.

For reference, I am shooting mostly freefly and tandems. I just can't decide if its worth the significantly larger investment to get the 10-22mm lense. It has a much smaller aperature and that will mean slower lense speeds. It also weighs more, but it is much less of a fisheye.

I did a bunch of searching this morning and looked at lots of pictures. For the tandem students, I'm not worried about them in regards to the fisheye, most of them have never seen that type of picture of themselves and will find it cool.

I like the idea of a fixed length lens so I am only taping focus down, or maybe even trying auto focus, I don't know. I haven't been shooting stills that long, but I do know I am sick of my kit lens. It is crappy glass and just doesn't take high quality images.


I am trying to decide between the sigma 15, canon 15, and canon 10-22.

They go up in that price order, the canon 15 costs about $60 more than the sigma... is it worth it? I wonder what the difference in lens quality really is between them. The canon is something like 1.5 oz ligher, but thats not significant. The 10-22 is a few hundred more and I am wondering if anyone can give any compelling reasons why I would want that over one of the 15s.

Thanks,

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[freeflydrew 0]

i vote sigma... the canon looks like the same material my canon kit lens is made of... It feels like a cheap plastic lens, also the front of the lens rotates as it focuses which kinda sucks. the 15mm is a prime lens with a larger aperture so the photos will be more accurate with less flaws

The sigma feels solid. (keep in mind that with the 1.6 crop factor it's more like a 22mm)

[freefalle 0]

I agree, go with the fixed 15, I dont think you will regret it

[namgrunt 0]

SIGMA 10/20

NO fish eye distortion

less than $500 but not much less

..

59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

[marcin 0]

I love my Canon 15 (1:2.8). It's a great lense, sharp, crispy images. 10-20 is bigger, heavier and I did not the quality of pics that much.

Attachment: The "Canon 15_1" pic is significantly cropped (still good quality)

[Dokeman 0]

10-22mm here and lovin' it

[LukeH 0]

There are a number of factors that should be considered:
1) Is fisheye ok or not?
2) Is fixed focal length ok or do you need zoom?
3) Weight
4) Cost

I think max aperture is a bit of a red herring, as you are unlikely to want a very large aperture for general freefall photos. You will usually be aiming for f8-f10. It is actually quite hard to get a larger aperture than f3.5 on a bright day without using neutral density filters - even with a shutter speed of 1/4000th.

Here is a list of the most commonly used wide angle lenses on Digital SLRs for skydiving, their weight and their cost from B&H (imports can be cheaper) this list excludes the kit lens:


---Fixed-Fisheye
Sigma Fisheye 15mm f/2.8
.81lbs
$499

Canon Fisheye EF 15mm f/2.8
.73lbs
$579.95 (Before $35 Rebate)

Zenitar 16/2.8 fisheye
.6lbs
$120-$150 (not available from B&H)


---Fixed-Aspherical
Sigma Super Wide Angle 14mm f/2.8 EX
1.44lbs
$899


---Zoom
Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM
.85lbs
$689.95

Sigma Zoom Super Wide Angle 10-20mm f/4-5.6
1.03lbs
$499


I would recommend the Canon 15 over the Sigma 15, I doubt you can tell if the quality is the same by looking at the lenses. I use the Canon EF-S 10-22 and really like it. I've used it at 12, 14, 17 & 22 and really like being able to change between them. The extra weight over the Fixed 15mm is insignificant, the smaller max aperture is not important for freefall.

Your deciding factor should be is the extra cost ($75 - $155 if you use the rebate) worth it for flexible focal length and no fisheye? For me it was but I also use the lens on the ground and when I bought I got Triple rebates

• Quote

[BlueSBDeath 2]

I am new to the 10-22, but as stated, it gives you more options on one lens. Nice tight shots for FF and some room for comfort with the TM shots.

My 2 cents

If I was you............I would buy them all

Stay Safe,

Arvel

BSBD...........Its all about Respect,

USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499

[Fast 0]

Quote

There are a number of factors that should be considered:
1) Is fisheye ok or not?
2) Is fixed focal length ok or do you need zoom?
3) Weight
4) Cost

I think max aperture is a bit of a red herring, as you are unlikely to want a very large aperture for general freefall photos. You will usually be aiming for f8-f10. It is actually quite hard to get a larger aperture than f3.5 on a bright day without using neutral density filters - even with a shutter speed of 1/4000th.

Here is a list of the most commonly used wide angle lenses on Digital SLRs for skydiving, their weight and their cost from B&H (imports can be cheaper) this list excludes the kit lens:

*snip*

I would recommend the Canon 15 over the Sigma 15, I doubt you can tell if the quality is the same by looking at the lenses. I use the Canon EF-S 10-22 and really like it. I've used it at 12, 14, 17 & 22 and really like being able to change between them. The extra weight over the Fixed 15mm is insignificant, the smaller max aperture is not important for freefall.

Your deciding factor should be is the extra cost ($75 - $155 if you use the rebate) worth it for flexible focal length and no fisheye? For me it was but I also use the lens on the ground and when I bought I got Triple rebates

This made me think about some other things. I have been shooting iso400 on my camera because the pictures were blurry and not crisp. If a f2.8 lets me go back down to iso100 then that is worth it to me. I also have found by looking through a few picture folders that a lot of my pictures are being taken at the 1/400 range. I left the camera pick the f-stop and shutter speed and it has been picking from f7.1-11 with shutter speeds from 1/125-1/500. This is at iso400. That gives me more depth of field in regards to the fact that I have the focus taped down, but it also is slowing the shutter down and I get a lot of motion blurred pictures.

If I could take every picture at 1/2000-1/4000 it would probally be good. The faster the shutter the more motion stop I will get. I don't want to see motion in my skydiving pictures really. At least I don't think I do. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I will be pigeon holeing myself at a higher shutter speed and that will cause other problems.


Looking at it more, the 10-22 is 3.5 inches long, and the sigma & canon 15 are both 2.5 inches long which is closer to the kit lense and I don't think I want much bigger than that. I guess it also comes down to price, the sigma is $200 cheaper and no one has given compelling reasons to buy the canon lens over the sigma. I also read in another thread, posted by mcgowan:

Quote

lou
i have been using a sigma 15mm fish eye for some time now and am very happy with it's performance. in fact one of our favorite pictures of you and b2 was taken with the sigma. i am sure either lens will serve you well and it is highly unlikely that if you choose the sigma any one will ever say "that would have been much nicer had you used a cannon lens" or vis versa.
another thing to consider is that either lens will out resolve the digital format so with digital it seems the choice is much less crucial. one last thing. because the imaging sensor is a 1.6 ratio to 35 mm you will only be using the sweet spot of your glass even when shooting wide open. so again lens choice is less critical.

the camera/lens only takes the photo it is the mind that creates the image.

hope that helped

mcgowan

That leads me to belive its not worth the extra $70 to get the canon and well, I trust his advice.


I think I want a 10-22 but I also think I want a 15mm fisheye. I can't buy both though. I have a .3 on my camera that I zoom in for tandem video so I am not worried about having to fly close, I can deal with that. What your getting in this post is about an hours worth of me thinking on the topic and writing it down because I hate spending this much cash on something w/o being able to try it out. No one at my DZ has either lens so I am pretty much screwed in that regards.

I think I will get the sigma 15. A lot of people seem to be happy with it and I can't argue with it being the cheapest lens. If it doesn't work out for me for all the applications I want, I guess I will have to save up and buy the 10-22 as well. I know there are uses for the 15 and what photographer doesn't like having more lens options in his camera bag? (Besides ones that don't like to carry a bunch of crap)


Thanks anyone who posted. Price and size win in the end for now I guess. Also, it weighs less and you say it doesn't make a big difference, but have you jumped stills yet? Every bit of weight makes a difference, my helmet already weighs more than my partially screwed up neck would like)


edit2: the only thing i'm really afraid of with the 15mm is that my flying isn't good enough yet to stay close enough the whole time. oh well, I will make that happen.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[LukeH 0]

Quote

Also, it weighs less and you say it doesn't make a big difference, but have you jumped stills yet?

Yes I have jumped stills (my profile is for BASE), what I actually said was "The extra weight over the Fixed 15mm is insignificant" According to the specs is .04lbs that is about 20 grams. If that is significant for you then the Canon 15mm is .08lbs lighter again.

At ISO 400, you are likely to get noticeable noise. ISO 100-200 is sufficient for normal daylight conditions. You should be getting a higher shutter speed and smaller aperture than you are getting, something is wrong with those figures (are you using sports mode?).

A shutter speed of 1/320 - 1/500 is plenty fast enough to stop motion in normal skydiving, especially when you are sitting in front of a tandem. Increasing the aperture is going to decrease your depth of field, reducing the likelihood of the subject being in focus if you are using manual focus.

Anyone can quote an experts option to support their view. If you are happy with the views you have already gotten then why ask here?(Rhetorical question) I still say the Canon lens is worth the extra few bucks. You don’t have to look far to find that the support from Sigma is not very good.

I'm not saying you choice isn't the best for you, just giving some feedback on some of your comments, sounds like you had decided on the Sigma 15mm before you first posted and were looking for reassurances. I’m sure you’ll be happy with whatever lens you buy.

[vdschoor 0]

I always shoot at ISO 100 unless the available light doesn't allow it (sunset e.a.)

Other than that I generally shoot at 1/320th for shutterspeed, and I let teh camera pick the aperture.
On normal days this will get my aperture somewhere between 7.1 and 11 which is perfect..

I've gone even slower, a couple of weeks ago I needed fill flash on a jump and I set my camera to 1/250th.. really nice and sharp pictures.

In fact, if you fly careful, you can go even slower than that.. one of my favorite shots is a sunset jump (more like night jump) where I shot at 1/60th F8, ISO 400 with flash.. and that picture is SHARP..

The "motion blur" that you are talking about is still a mystery to me.. I get that sometimes, and I absolutely cannot explain where it comes from. Cause one picture will have it, and the next will be razor sharp..
At 1./500th you shouldn't get ANY motion blur I think.. we're shooting a still object that just happens to move at 120mph, but you are too..

If anyone can solve that mystery for me that would be awesome..

To answer Fast's question, I use the Sigma 15mm about 99.9% of the time, and just recently bought the Canon 20mm F2.8 which I am really happy about too..

I am not spending money on the EF-S system, since I eventually want to go full frame (5D / 1D) and those lenses will not fit on there..

[Fast 0]

Quote

Quote

Also, it weighs less and you say it doesn't make a big difference, but have you jumped stills yet?

Yes I have jumped stills (my profile is for BASE), what I actually said was "The extra weight over the Fixed 15mm is insignificant" According to the specs is .04lbs that is about 20 grams. If that is significant for you then the Canon 15mm is .08lbs lighter again.

At ISO 400, you are likely to get noticeable noise. ISO 100-200 is sufficient for normal daylight conditions. You should be getting a higher shutter speed and smaller aperture than you are getting, something is wrong with those figures (are you using sports mode?).

A shutter speed of 1/320 - 1/500 is plenty fast enough to stop motion in normal skydiving, especially when you are sitting in front of a tandem. Increasing the aperture is going to decrease your depth of field, reducing the likelihood of the subject being in focus if you are using manual focus.

Anyone can quote an experts option to support their view. If you are happy with the views you have already gotten then why ask here?(Rhetorical question) I still say the Canon lens is worth the extra few bucks. You don’t have to look far to find that the support from Sigma is not very good.

I'm not saying you choice isn't the best for you, just giving some feedback on some of your comments, sounds like you had decided on the Sigma 15mm before you first posted and were looking for reassurances. I’m sure you’ll be happy with whatever lens you buy.

Your right on the weight thing and in that regard, the canon is better yet. It is definatly something I'm keeping in mind. I don't know if I will feel the difference, but if the overall health impact is better then, thats decent in my book.

At ISO 400 I am getting noise and that is frustrating me. I have been using it on the suggestion of another videographer at my DZ. I would rather use 100 in regards to photo quality. As to using a lower f-stop to get more light I do realize that lowers dof and that is why I have let the camera just do its think on "P" mode, I wasn't using sports mode no. As for stoping motion, yeah, I have no problems with tandems, but I take my camera on FF jumps quite a bit and have been having a lot of problems there. As for quoting mcgowan's advice regarding the sigma over the canon, on that issue yeah, what he says supports some of the things I was thinking. I don't take anything that anyone says as gospel though. I knew starting this thread that if I bought a 15mm lens it would probally be the sigma. That doesn't mean its not worth asking and seeing if there is someone who could give me something to think about.

In the time since starting this thread some things that I read included a few paragraphs about the loss of extreme detail in highlights due in part to only showing up on a few pixels of the sensor. The higher quality of lens makes less difference on digital than film because of that, which is when I remembered reading the post I quoted. Anyways, I mostly started this thread looking for reasons to buy the 10-22 over the 15 and some people asked questions and I thought about it, and the things stated don't seem worth the extra coin.

Thats why I started it.


I hope you haven't taken offense to my asking if you have jumped a still camera, I often find its hard to qualify someones experience level on the internet.


I'll pick one and if I don't like it I will send it back, I guess thats the only real way to figure it out.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[LukeH 0]

Quote

I hope you haven't taken offense ...

None taken.

I've been experimenting with various setting on my 350D. For bright conditions the following seems to work fairly well:
ISO 100
Tv 1/500th
Full frame metering
Manual Focus

You can also try Av f9 but if it gets dark you'll get a slow shutter speed <1/250 and may get motion blur.

For sunset loads, try increasing the ISO to 400, and decrease the shutter speed a little.

I haven't tried it but I'd guess that P (Program mode) is not good for freefall photography. Some people use Sports mode with success, but I don't like it because it automatically bumps up the ISO to 400.

You can try taking test shots on the ground or on the climb to altitude with various shutter speeds in Tv mode, you are aiming to have the camera choose f8.

No one setup is "the best". If you have no idea about photography and don't want to learn, then Sports mode is probably your safest bet. If you know a little, then experiment with settings similar to what I listed above and see how they work for you in different light conditions.

[Fast 0]

Quote

Quote

I hope you haven't taken offense ...

You can try taking test shots on the ground or on the climb to altitude with various shutter speeds in Tv mode, you are aiming to have the camera choose f8.

No one setup is "the best". If you have no idea about photography and don't want to learn, then Sports mode is probably your safest bet. If you know a little, then experiment with settings similar to what I listed above and see how they work for you in different light conditions.

Yeah I agree with that. The thing is I actually know quite a bit about photography. My parents both worked as a professional wedding photographers when I was a kid and my dad still does a lot of photography as a hobby. I learned a bunch from them and from reading books about photography and a few specifically about digital photography. I just don't know a lot about freefall photography. I can take really cool pictures on the ground when I have time to play with the camera. Its getting used to the fire and forget nature of settings and the inability to use a viewfinder that has been harder.

My real problems are with spending money, I hate it!

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[cj1150gs 0]

Quote

no one has given compelling reasons to buy the canon lens over the sigma.

Hi Fast,
I once tried to decide the Sigma 15 vs Canon 15. I asked for opinion here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1828104;search_string=sigma%20vs%20canon;#1828104

Not much feddback then, but the one that was, pointed Canon. Bruno Brokken finds the Canon sharper.

I then decided to buy the Canon, which I did. A friend then ejected it through the skies along a 20D before I could jump it

Carlos Martins
Portugal www.cj.smugmug.com

[DSE 3]

A caveat to throw in...
At F8, you're stopped down below the resolution level that Bayering applies to the cam. F4 is the max you should stop to on a 1/3 camcorder in order to achieve full chroma resolution and luma sampling. This means you need an ND filter on the glass so you can stay open on your aperture. On a 1/4 chip, you shouldn't be stopping past 3.5, again requiring an ND filter. On the smaller chip lenses, you can still shoot to infinity at 3.5 or 4, and you'll see a relatively significant greater saturation of colors, particularly reds and blues if you keep the aperture at F4 on 1/3 camcorders. This is somewhat critical for HD/HDV shooting.

[PhreeZone 15]

I scaned the thread and did'nt see where he was talking about setting the Fstop for a video camera, but only referenced the size lens he used on the video for comparison for distance off the subject. Did I miss something?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[DSE 3]

I was responding to Fast's post, suggesting a stop of F8.

[PhreeZone 15]

The whole thread was in steping down a still lens, not a video camera.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[DSE 3]

I'll shut up now.

[jimmytavino 16]

there is something comforting about a knowledgeable person who knows when to step up and speak, yet is also humble enough to know when to stand downps... nice avatar.... how is the skydiving going.?? I hope you're having fun.
jmy A3914 D12122

• Quote

[DSE 3]

Quote

there is something comforting about a knowledgeable person who knows when to step up and speak, yet is also humble enough to know when to stand downps... nice avatar.... how is the skydiving going.?? I hope you're having fun.
jmy A3914 D12122

At the risk of taking the thread to a new direction...
It's going exceptionally well. I'll have my first solo exit this morning, assuming winds cooperate. With the winds, a monster 280 canopy, and some luck, I've been able to stick every landing but one where I had to slide in on my butt due to a dropout at 20'. My instructor is already allowing me to jump with my Bonehead flattop (sans cams) so I can get comfortable with it, and I've been wearing a belly lipstick feeding an SS recorder (whole thing weighs less than .5 lbs) so I can view my face, arms, and get an idea of my positioning, plus great canopy shots that allow me to see how I'm doing with turns, stalls, etc. It's only 640 x 480, but it's not for distribution, it's for me to see what I'm doing.

[Stumpy 256]

has anyone tried the sigma 14mm ultra wide?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[parasale 0]

let me ask. (canon 15mm fish eye) does the lens rotate when it focuses? or is it done internally? i know sigma changes its length when it focuses but the lens does not rotate.
Thanks

[freeflydrew 0]

the sigma 15mm does not change it's length when it focuses...