More on digital stills for tandems/students

[davelepka 4]

I know that there have been similar threads in the past, but I'm looking for some updated info, and some end-of-season reactions, and plans for next season. Besides, this is the only 'new' thing in the video monkey busienss anyway, so lets keep the 411 fresh.

So here's what I'm wondering (feel free to answer all or any, or add some other rlevant info)-

- I'm pretty well sold on the Digi Rebel. Any input on this? What lenses have you been using, and has the 1.6 conversion factor had any weight in your lens choice?

- What is your final product? CDR's or prints, and how is the pricing, production, and delivery set-up?

- If you have just switched to digital, how does the pricing compare to your film pricing, and how were your sales for the season?

- Does anyone have a partial digital crew? As in some have digital some still film? How do you handle this?

Again, please feel free to add any insight you may have to setting up a digital still consession. In looking to make the switchover, every camera flyer will have to drop over a grand, and we'd like to get the most return on that money. By putting as many ideas as possible on the table, we can mix and match them to find the best plan possible.

[Miami 0]

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- I'm pretty well sold on the Digi Rebel. Any input on this? What lenses have you been using, and has the 1.6 conversion factor had any weight in your lens choice?

The Rebel XT (350D) should be an excellent camera for skydiving. I actually went with a 20D only because I found it for a great price (posted in a previous thread where that was). I'm using the canon 17-85 USM lens which puts me at about 27mm with the conversion factor and that matches up great with my video. Eventually I'll get the 10-22mm USM for me versatility, and it is a little lighter.

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- What is your final product? CDR's or prints, and how is the pricing, production, and delivery set-up?

Anytime I have shot digital stills the customer got a cd-r, which was hopefully treated just like a roll of film, and they got the cd about 10-15 minutes after their jump.

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- If you have just switched to digital, how does the pricing compare to your film pricing, and how were your sales for the season?

The dz took care of providing the materials but cd-r's are a lot less expensive than film ($.75/roll of film, $.25/cd&case). You do need at the least a stand alone cd burner/card reader, which can run anywhere from $30-$200, but the cost of that is made up over time from the price on the cd-r's.

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- Does anyone have a partial digital crew? As in some have digital some still film? How do you handle this?

I have not personally seen anyplace doing this but I'm sure there are...

Hope this helps...

Miami

[davelepka 4]

OK here's another one. How are you previewing the pics to the customer? PC? Camera direct to TV? Other?

About preveiwing, are you just previewing the unsold customers, to add-on to a video, or doing a preview for everyone, as a customer service? If it's just the un-sold customers, how do you not do this for your already paid customers without creating bad feelings? Would a stand alone PC work to allow pre=paid customers to view their own stills (and maybe request a print)?

Has anyone considered offering both CD's and prints? This was suggested by one of our guys. How would you structure the pricing the prints in relation to the cost of the CD?

[PhreeZone 15]

I'm a partial digital crew. I'm the only one shooting on Digital at the DZ and everyone else is 35mm. I burn a CD on Monday and mail it to them, but I also print a custom label for them since I could'nt hand it to them that day. Works great, next year I might get a CF CD burner to dump and burn on. I never shot film, but I sell them at the same cost as the 35mm people do. I figure with postage/envelope/CD I'm out about $.50 more then someone with 35mm but I get to keep my own copies of the pictures and I'm not limited on photo count so its worth it to me.

I've seen really good sales of just stills and whats surprized me is the ones I haul the camera on and they buy after, its happened once or twice already in only about 5-7 attempts at it. If post sales rates of the CD remain at 30%+ thats a lot more $$ in my pocket then otherwise. If I do tandems next year I'll change things and push more towards the selling of prints on the web since thats profit and easier for family to buy as a gift. I still need something like Shutterfly but will build into my own website... I've had more people email me asking for details once I posted photos then people ask me at the DZ in the excitement after a jump. This is an area I really want to work on over the winter. Business cards, etc to point people to my website to order prints and slide it in with the video for later viewing. Selling the CD is fine too but I make X off the CD. but I could make $10-15 profit off an 8*10 and they could order more then one picture.

I was shooting on the 10D and I'm yet to have one bad comment on the quality of the pictures. I'd go for the 350D since its faster then the original Rebel. I'm still using a cheap lens but here is an example of it on a tandem. Nice thing is with Digital I still have the picture.. otherwise I'd never have gotten to see it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Fast 0]

I am just getting into the frey at my DZ with tandem video but I can talk about how we are doing things.

For background, every person that gets video (DVD or VHS) gets still pictures as well. Prior to this past season everyone on the DZ was shooting and was expected to shoot film. This was because the people in charge weren't sure how things were going to work out with digital and it was expected that the customer got to take home something. We don't do onsite video editing, it gets mailed to them. So everyone went home with a roll of film.

This last year first one then a second person started shooting with digital. The expectation is that everyone goes home with stills and they have to manage time well. The customer doesn't pre-view stills but a CD is burnt for them w/in 10-15 minutes so they can take it home. The 2 guys doing this are both carrying laptops to the DZ and set them up for that purpose. The guys who are shooting film still are just handing the roll over instaid of a CDR.

We don't do any onsite printing of pictures for people, they get the CD and "instructions" about taking it to walgreens for prints if they want any.

The people who are shooting digital are giving the customers about 50-70+ pictures compared to 24-36 on film. We are mixed and some customers have asked to go with someone who does digital but it is generally random who they get. We don't promiss anything in regards to that because it causes problems.

I am working on my skills with non-video customers and I typically show them the video and stills on my laptop. I haven't had anyone who didn't get at least the stills yet.


I can't really report on complaints about groups where some had digital and some had film because I haven't heard of any yet. We don't have plans to do a forced change right now because it's too expensive to expect people to drop the money on a digital camera. Though I would say it is moving more towards digital at our dz.


edited to add a picture cause digital is cool.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Miami 0]

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OK here's another one. How are you previewing the pics to the customer? PC? Camera direct to TV? Other?

The stand alone cd burners/card readers had a line out that you could hook up to a monitor to see the pictures after they had been burnt to the cd. That would let you scan through to see what your pictures looked like as well as checking to make sure they were copied to the cd without problems.

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About preveiwing, are you just previewing the unsold customers, to add-on to a video, or doing a preview for everyone, as a customer service? If it's just the un-sold customers, how do you not do this for your already paid customers without creating bad feelings? Would a stand alone PC work to allow pre=paid customers to view their own stills (and maybe request a print)?

We did not preview the pictures with any of the customers...aside from taking up a lot of time I think the line of thought was that the cd was just like a roll of film, they could take it to get it developed or take a look and save them on their own computer.

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Has anyone considered offering both CD's and prints? This was suggested by one of our guys. How would you structure the pricing the prints in relation to the cost of the CD?

I've never printed my own pictures, so I'm not too sure what the cost would be, but I see no reason why you couldn't do this.

Miami

[Miami 0]

I agree with you completely...digital gives you so much more flexibility for creativity.

The stand alone cd burners/card readers are definitely worth it...just make sure you get one that writes quickly...I've seen some that take over 5 minutes to write the pictures and some that take 1 minute to write the same number/size pictures.

Miami

[Miami 0]

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...some customers have asked to go with someone who does digital but it is generally random who they get. We don't promiss anything in regards to that because it causes problems.

I think thats the biggest setback...it's hard to force all the videographers to drop that much money for stills but if there is a mix it has the potential to cause a lot of tension between the vidiots.

Miami

[davelepka 4]

Just some general comments, we have a full time editor on hand, so I figured he couls do some of the previewing.

Most of our customers pay for video, then we after sell the stilss (35 mm). Some do request just stills, in which case we sned them to the video room for a preview of the freefall video to attempt an aftersell. This is usually a slam dunk since they can see the product before purchase. I was thinking that since you can do this with digi stills, it would up the aftersale percenatge on stills.

Maybe a stand alone PC, with a card reader, accesible to the customers would allow them to preview the stills with very little staff input. If the PC had a CD drive, the cust pre-paid cust could view their pics as well. Part cust service, part sales incentive to sell some prints.

We have a stand alone printer that reads right off of a card, and we could offer prints at near retail prices to those who already paid for the stills. It's not a huge money maker, but you could add a few bucks to the bill. Again, we have an editor who can handle the busy work while the camera staff is jumping.

Also, we're looking at a forced all digital switch over, which means we will need 8 or 10 cameras and various accessories. Any thoughts on where to look for a quantity discount? It would end up being a $10,000+ order, with additional orders to follow if the cust service is up to par.

[Fast 0]

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Just some general comments, we have a full time editor on hand, so I figured he couls do some of the previewing.

Most of our customers pay for video, then we after sell the stilss (35 mm). Some do request just stills, in which case we sned them to the video room for a preview of the freefall video to attempt an aftersell. This is usually a slam dunk since they can see the product before purchase. I was thinking that since you can do this with digi stills, it would up the aftersale percenatge on stills.

Maybe a stand alone PC, with a card reader, accesible to the customers would allow them to preview the stills with very little staff input. If the PC had a CD drive, the cust pre-paid cust could view their pics as well. Part cust service, part sales incentive to sell some prints.

We have a stand alone printer that reads right off of a card, and we could offer prints at near retail prices to those who already paid for the stills. It's not a huge money maker, but you could add a few bucks to the bill. Again, we have an editor who can handle the busy work while the camera staff is jumping.

Also, we're looking at a forced all digital switch over, which means we will need 8 or 10 cameras and various accessories. Any thoughts on where to look for a quantity discount? It would end up being a $10,000+ order, with additional orders to follow if the cust service is up to par.

For a dropzone that doesn't give stills automatically with video just thinking about this makes me all googly eyed about how neat a setup you could create for customers to view thier stills and request to buy them. Most of which is way to cool for most dropzones :D

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[PhreeZone 15]

B&H gets my money for camera goodies. They know their stuff there.

You will be needing camera bodies, lenses, batteries, chargers, 2 CF cards per person, (if you go 10/20D route remotes), 100's of CD's and cases, 2 CF-CD burners (in case one breaks)

Printing is just too much of a time drainer. I learned that lesson at WFFC '03 and '04. If its a busy DZ you'd almost need a person just to print photos. It takes an average of 1-2 minutes to dump the pictures to a computer, then a few minutes for the customer to pick their photo, another minute or two to open the picture in Photoshop and size it for the print (5*7, 8*10) and do a little crop work etc if needed. The photo I posted earlier only has been resized and logoed, no cropping. I get about 2-3 of those per jump, the rest just need slight cropping to be full edge to edge, centered, etc. At this point you are about 10-15 minutes into the process and you still would need to wait on it to print before you can hand it to the customer. If 4 people buy a still thats an entire hour spent printing that could be used editing or better.. JUMPING
Anything thats accessable to a customer can and will break at the worst time possible.

Shutterfly/web printing rocks here since you say "Look at this website Monday for your pictures". Dump them all to computer and then upload only like 5-8 per jump. Only the good ones and you can do it while drinking a few beers too. You set your price for print sizes and they take care of everything like printing, shipping, and credit card payments then send you a check when you have made so much profit. Good thing is you can leave the photos there so if they don't buy them Monday.. they or a friend may buy one at the next paycheck.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[davelepka 4]

About pritning, I was thinking of straight off the card type of prints, no corrections. The editor would only need to select the pic, and size, and push 'print'. Like I said, not a primary money maker, but we've got the printer, so it might add up over time.

I like the Shutterfly idea for those that don't buy anything. Now we offer the stills as an aftersell, and those who refuse get an order form. We keep the film cataloged and on hand so they can change their mind, and we mail them the roll. For digital it would be nice to post them and force them to buy prints for not taking the CD on site.

My concern with Shuttefly for all is that not everyone is tech savvy, and a guy who would take a CD, and drop it at Walmart for a set of prints might not get online and place an order. Many dumb rednecks come to jump, and all of them end up at Walmart sooner of later, but not all of them get online. Some of them still request VHS over DVD. Go figure.

My other concern is the lack of a 'take-home' product. For example, if our editor gets behind, and we have to mail a video, we'll try to get them a rough footage preview, in an effort to give them a 'product' right away. People like the instant gratification.

This thread is going well so far. I'm developing some good ideas, and ways to maximize the system.

[AndyMan 7]

Chicagoland has been 100% digital this year.

I use the digital Rebel, but I don't do many tandems - I work mostly with sport jumpers. I would recomend the Rebel XT, it doesn't have the buffer issues of the plain Rebel. 20D seems overkill for tandem operations. I shoot most of my stuff with the Sigma 15, which I find is a bit too wide (1.6 conversion makes it 24mm). I dislike the barrel distortion as well. I have an 18mm or 20mm on this winters shopping list.

We hand the student a CDR in a plastic case with their DVD. They usually get their CDs within about 10-15 minutes of walking back to the hangar. We use a PC equiped with a reader and burner to create the disks. I've recomended they switch to a standalone burner, but so far they haven't listened. We do not preview or edit the images in any way.

The DZ didn't charge any extra for digital. The standard rate is $99 which includes video and "free" stills. I can't speak to how much sales have increased (if any), since I'm not that close to the operation. I can only say that the customers I've delt with tell me they prefer digital.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[vdschoor 0]

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Just some general comments, we have a full time editor on hand, so I figured he couls do some of the previewing.

The video concession in Byron has a little CF reader that connects to a TV and displays the pics on a TV in a slideshow.
We burn the pictures to a cd and then we put the CF card in the reader connected to the TV to show the pictures while their video is being editted and they can see that on the TV right next to it.

This only happens when there is time.. I think previewing is overrated, unless you're trying to sell the pictures after the jump.

Iwan

[davelepka 4]

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This only happens when there is time.. I think previewing is overrated, unless you're trying to sell the pictures after the jump

Most of my previewing concerns were sorrouding a more effectie method of aftersale. As for the pre-paid customers, it was more just a cust service type of thing, with the possibility of printing a shot or two.

I agree that it is a pain, but like I said, I'm sifting through idea, looking for the best set up. Thanks for the input.

[vdschoor 0]

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This only happens when there is time.. I think previewing is overrated, unless you're trying to sell the pictures after the jump

Most of my previewing concerns were sorrouding a more effectie method of aftersale. As for the pre-paid customers, it was more just a cust service type of thing, with the possibility of printing a shot or two.

I agree that it is a pain, but like I said, I'm sifting through idea, looking for the best set up. Thanks for the input.

For aftersale.. previewing is the ticket.. a lot of people think the video is cooler.. untill they see the pictures and then they want those too...

[Dokeman 0]

at my dz, all the full time staff used digital. If they buy the stills upfront, they just get a cd with their vhs/dvd. If they just get video, then we show them the pics on our laptops when we get back to the hanger. Most people end up getting them after they see the pics. Probally 80% - 90%.

[jimoke 0]

I print 2 8x10 photos of every tandem I shoot. it takes 10 mins. for two beautiful photos. I charge $20. for one shot $30. for both.
I bet I sell 85% of the photos I print. the ones I don't sell find themselves on a wall for other students to look at.
the cost is about $5. per print.
you won't be disapointed with the rebel XT and the stock lens
Oke

The ground always, remembers where you are!

[kelpdiver 2]

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For aftersale.. previewing is the ticket.. a lot of people think the video is cooler.. untill they see the pictures and then they want those too...

If the viewing is done in open sight of other customers, can lead to front selling too.

Vdschoor - what does Byron do for the non tandems for video and stills? Same rates, private transactions, ?

[billo 0]

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I'm pretty well sold on the Digi Rebel. Any input on this? What lenses have you been using, and has the 1.6 conversion factor had any weight in your lens choice?

Since I was shooting with video for awhile before adding stills, my preferred video camera & wide angle lens played more of a factor when determining the lens for my still camera than the conversion factor of the camera itself. Wanted them to be close to matching up, ya know.

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- What is your final product? CDR's or prints, and how is the pricing, production, and delivery set-up?

We charge $60 for video OR stills, $80 for both. We dump the pics to a PC via a card reader, burn the CDR, and put it in a case. No printed label, sometimes scribbling the dz's website on the CDR itself along with the customer's name. Pre-printed CDR labels is something i was going to kick around with our video crew for next season. Delivery is very shortly after the jump while the customer is still there.

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If you have just switched to digital, how does the pricing compare to your film pricing, and how were your sales for the season?

Pricing is the same for us as it was with film. Not sure about our total sales, i'd have to hit up the treasurer. I did notice an increase in stills sales after us camera folks started printing off stills out of our own pockets and hanging pictures around the DZ. Makes for easy conversation with the tandem student..."Isn't that a sweet picture? We can take some like that with you in it, if you'd like..."

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- Does anyone have a partial digital crew? As in some have digital some still film? How do you handle this?

Nope, we've got a full digital crew.

I think that making the switchover to digital stills really would depend on how your DZ and concession operates, or if there is a DZO guiding the direction. We're a club DZ, and if someone wanted to shoot film i don't think anyone would mind, although we'd leave the choice to the customer as to which camera guy they'd get (the one with digital or the one with film). If the DZ was ran more like a full-time business and the bossman said that "everyone working for my concession must shoot digital", then that would be a fact of life if you wanted to shoot tandems at that DZ. If you wanted to meet somewhere in the middle, I'd let the video crew know, for example, that prior to the start of the 2007 season (or whenever) you must upgrade to digital if you want to stay on the tandem rotation. This direction would have to be determined by the head honcho (DZO or lead video person) or by all those on the rotation. I think that how the DZ operates (full-time vs. part-time) might also come into play.