jump #'s for starting camera

[rhys 0]

what jump number did you start camera, what is the requirement at your d.z., and what do you think it should be?

there seems to be a huge difference wherever you go

i started filming skydives at 100 jumps i started filming tandems at 200 jumps and doing them commercialy at 270 jumps.

also do you think 500 jumps is enough to start doing tandems?

i personally do not. i have filmed people starting tandems who are very good all round skydivers and they had trouble. the requirement here in new zealand is 1000 jumps and two years jumping minimum.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[AggieDave 6]

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i personally do not. i have filmed people starting tandems who are very good all round skydivers and they had trouble.

I'm willing to bet even with 2000 jumps and being an AFF-I you would still have similar problems if you went for your TI.

Its not as easy as the experienced TI's make it look.

However, literally the only way to be prepared and ready to be a TI "in the field" is to have done some tandems. The only way to do tandems is to take the course and become a TI.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rhys 0]

500 jumps is still too little in my mind. i have heard some mention you cant even start filming tandems until you have 500 jumps now how can filming a tandem be anywhere as dangerous as taking one?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[NSEMN8R 0]

I started videoing tandems at a little under 200 jumps. When I watch the videos I shot back then I can tell that I wasn't ready. Not unsafe, but the video sucked. Although, if I started flying a camera at 500 jumps my first videos probably would still have sucked.

I went into the TI cert course with exactly 500 jumps. After 3 or 4 hundred of them I haven't had any serious problems yet {knocking on wood}. There have been a few "exciting" ones, but I've managed to get stable and get the drouge out on all of them. I don't think I would have been any safer if I'd waited until 900 jumps instead of 500.

Tandems require you to keep a cool head and think clearly under pressure sometimes, but I think doing good video requires more in the way of flying skills than tandems.

[ltdiver 3]

Where I jump it is required that you be an AFFI or have 500 jumps and be checked out by the chief instructor and the TI's before you can shoot camera for the school.

Also, here in the U.S. the minimums for becoming a TI is that you have 500 jumps -and- be 5 years in the sport. Seasoning over years, they found out, made a huge difference in the mental maturity of a TI.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Pendejo 0]

I started shooting video at around 700 jumps (I would have to look to get a better number). I was very lucky that I had a TI who was also a great video flyer (thanks Cajones) that took me under his wing and taught me the ropes.

We like people who want to shoot video to start at around 300 to 400 jumps. Its really up to me. The TI'S and DZO at our DZ trust me and know that I would not put someone in the air with them that isn't ready (no that doesn't make us perfect, but it does mean that we try to be as prepared as we can be).

As for the jump numbers to do tandems, I am not a TI, but it seems that time in the sport has a lot to do with how well they do (as well as jump numbers ect.).

I have seen those people (TI'S) have to deal with some pretty wild stuff (and have great respect for all they have to deal with from students and a-hole vidiots like me wanting them to play in freefall

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[AggieDave 6]

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Also, here in the U.S. the minimums for becoming a TI is that you have 500 jumps -and- be 5 years in the sport. Seasoning over years, they found out, made a huge difference in the mental maturity of a TI.

3 years in the sport, actually.

However, 3 years is still more then 2 years. The experienced gained over the years is really just as important, if not more important then just jumps. I've seen folks blast through jumps and get 700+ their first year of jumping. Were they good skydivers? Sure. Were they experienced skydivers? Hell no, they hadn't been around long enough to experience a lot of different aspects of the sport and what happens when shit happens.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jimmytavino 16]

...since this question is about #'s needed for flying Camera,, and Not for earning a TM rating, I can speak to the issue..

More jumps than you think......
I began flying cameras 10 years ago when i had 1,700 jumps.....
Fact is I was sorta losing my enthusiasm for jumping and thought i would start recording some of my fun jumps...I got into tandem video because the demand was there, and the place i jumped at only had only one other video guy.... ( and HE was being 'run ragged' ) He asked me if I would step up and help out and so I did... ( then we BOTH, got 'run ragged", and got UNappreciated, and got dissed when we wanted to make a fun jump, and so got fed up with the DZO) ( at least I did) .....
The key is NOT the # of jumps,,, so much as the jumpers abilities, experience level, comfort in the air, and willingness to be AT the DZ ALL the time.... Minimum I would say ought to be 500 jumps..... 500 FLAT FLY,, relative work jumps... While I do recognize that there are many many freeflyers who are multi-capable and can shoot video in a variety of body positions,,, I'm more old school, and think that a flat flying camera person, is what most TM's are comfortable with... ( You TM's out there,,,,,, please correct me, if the previous statement is inaccurate. )
The idea is to have the skydiving part be second nature,, before adding the complication of wearing and properly operating one two or three cameras...... I also feel that a jumpers choice of Main canopy is an important consideration...
Sure Sure... we all think we can handle ANYthing,,,
But until we are faced with it... we really don't know.
Handling a problem on a highly loaded elliptical as you're coasting through 2 grand, can not only be challenging,, but can also be caused or complicated by a camera helmet with all the accompanying items which are attached to it....

As for Tandem requirements... Listen to the guys and Girls who do THAT.....THEY are the real heros,,, we just go along to document the event...
....Now.. IF you want to just add a camera to your jumping activity without the idea of going with first jump tandems,,,, and if you intend to only jump with friends who are experienced and licensed.... I'd feel that 300 jumps min.. AND 3 full seasons of active jumping is probably a good idea.

[Fuzzy 0]

I started with around a few hundred jumps

Started filming fun stuff - worked my way up, then tandems. Had around / over 500 camera jumps before filming tandems though

Got my tandem rating at just over 3000 jumps and was still somewhat nervous - It was different being on the inside looking out.

Instead of looking at jump numbers to say when someone is ready, I prefer to look at a combination of skill, ability, currency, overall experience & specific discipine experience.

Having a camera doesn't make someone a good freeflyer or RW'r, but being a good freeflyer or RW'r can help make you a better videographer.


Fuzzy

Fuzzy
Ambition / Ability: Know the difference.

[ltdiver 3]

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3 years in the sport, actually.

Sorry. I don't have the TI's IRM here handy at home. Believed it was 5, but perhaps I was mistaken.

Talking with Tandem I/E's, they wish it were more jumps than only 500. When they teach those with only the minimum requirements they see a stark difference in quality of judgment and flying proficiency between those and other individuals who have both more jumps and more years of seasoning in the sport.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[bob.dino 0]

In Oz, the minimum requirement is 500 jumps, but I believe our CI (~= DZO) will very rarely train anyone with less than 1000 jumps.

[Mixoligist 0]

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Instead of looking at jump numbers to say when someone is ready, I prefer to look at a combination of skill, ability, currency, overall experience & specific discipine experience.
Fuzzy

I agree 100%

Jumps numbers are just that....jump numbers.

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Better you than me
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[freefalle 0]

When it comes down to it, if someone is truly set on flying camera, they are going to do it regardless of what the recommendations of others are. I support the notion that 200 jumps is a good number to start flying camera but I also realize people aren't always going to follow that line of though. Hell there are several people in this forum that started flying camera before 200 jumps and then were allowed to fly video on RWS tandems before they had 500 jumps.

I think it comes down to this, as students of this sport, we all need to be aware of whats going on around us, I also think that if someone comes to anyone of us and with there helmet in there hand and says hey Im flying camera now and I had a few questions I wanted to see if you could answer, our first response should not be put the helmet away you dont have enough jumps. Thats person has already chosen to start flying that camera, you admonishing their decision is not going to change it, its just going to make them refrain from asking questions; which could get them or someone else hurt. I had right at 150 jumps when I put my first helmet together. I went to Edson Pacheco and said I want to learn how to use this. His reply okay, first, let me say this because I feel I have to, I think you need more jumps before you are ready to start flying camera. He then said, but since you have chosen to start, I am going to teach you how to be safe. I've learned more from him, and rickster than probably anyone else in skydiving, because they were willing to teach. I think its a good attitude to have.

[davelepka 4]

So a guy who doesn't have the good sense to listen to the general consensus regarding jump numbers is magically going to gain that sense when you put a camera on his head, and put him in the sky with other jumpers?

It would seem to me that the attitude that got him 'ready' to jump camera before others though he was ready, is the same attitude I'm going to look at when I decide to to send him packing when he wants advice.

Here's a point that I made in another post: All of the confidence and good intentions you may have, and all of the confidence and good intentions of whom ever is coaching you means nothing when you climb out of the plane. YOU are getting yourself into a situaiton that may go bad. YOU are the only one who can help yourself at that point. Rickster, Norm Kent, and Gus Wing combined cannot save your ass if you blow it.

[freefalle 0]

Dave, I dont disagree with what you are saying, but let me ask you this, would you rather, help the new camera flyer out and help him learn what he needs to know to keep himself safe --or--- would you rather he went up in the air without proper instruction and hurt someone.

The point I was trying to make is regardless of weather or not someone tells some people that they shouldn't be doing something if they are resolved to so it, they are going to. Im not saying its right Im just saying it happens.

[vdschoor 0]

I keep reading all these threads about jump numbers and everything and every time I see a new one I wonder..

Why are people in such a rush to put a camera on their heads? Every single one of my jumps before I started jumping camera I didn't even think twice about a camera on my head cause I was too busy having fun. (and I still am wearing cameras by the way.. the day that stops, the camera stays on the ground)
I might consider myself lucky for jumping at the places I jumped at cause there were always people to jump with and have fun with..
My last 900 or so jumps have mostly been in Byron, and if you're by yourself there one of our organizers will be more than happy to jump with you.

I see a lot of people starting to freefly immediately off of AFF, (and there's nothing wrong with that cause freeflying is a blast, and the majority of my skydives now are FF) but I remember doing belly stuff is a lot easier to start off with and it's easier to find people to jump with.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say with all this, but I am wondering.. are people bored that quick, or having a hard time finding people to jump with and therefore just decide to add something new to the mix? Or is it a status symbol to have a camera on your head because the cool superawesome freeflier that is at your dz has one too?

Just ranting here.. but it's something I wonder about...

[Mixoligist 0]

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So a guy who doesn't have the good sense to listen to the general consensus regarding jump numbers is magically going to gain that sense when you put a camera on his head, and put him in the sky with other jumpers?

Rickster, Norm Kent, and Gus Wing combined cannot save your ass if you blow it.

Amen

..................................
Better you than me
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[newshooter12 0]

I've got to say there is one major point throughout:
"ATTITUDE"
I don't mean to yell, but if two people with exactly the same jump #s, gear, training, etc... walk up to you asking to learn camera flying isn't their mental state & maturity one of the most important factors??
Sure i've got all the gear that i could strap on my head... i know that it's not quite time for me to aspire to be an aerial photographer yet. At some point it'd like to. Say after 300 jumps maybe further just for fun. I can't imagine trying to sell myself as a professional in the air before i get enough experience.
time to go shoot some scrabble... (on the ground)
matt

[davelepka 4]

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The point I was trying to make is regardless of weather or not someone tells some people that they shouldn't be doing something if they are resolved to so it

Shooting video is hard to do without subjects. If everyone would use their heads, and not allow such jumpers to film them, the problem would be solved.

As it is, there are more than enough people who are happy to let anyone with a camera film them. You have your actor, and your enablers, it's a complete package. All I can do is make sure I'm not an enabler, and sit back and watch the fur fly. By assisting in any way, I am only adding to the problem.

Remember what I said about your coach not being able to save your ass when you blow it? How about if I was the coach, under the premise of 'He'll do it anyway, so I'd better help', and the guy blows it big time, and hurts himself as well as others? What do I say to the innocent bystanders? How do I answer their question when they ask "Why would you let him shoot video? You've got all that experience, so we thought you knew what you were doing coaching him to film. Meanwhile this guy crashes into the formation, and almost killed me".

[davelepka 4]

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I don't mean to yell, but if two people with exactly the same jump #s, gear, training, etc... walk up to you asking to learn camera flying isn't their mental state & maturity one of the most important factors??

My reply to this begins with this :

All of the confidence and good intentions you may have, and all of the confidence and good intentions of whom ever is coaching you means nothing when you climb out of the plane. YOU are getting yourself into a situaiton that may go bad. YOU are the only one who can help yourself at that point. Rickster, Norm Kent, and Gus Wing combined cannot save your ass if you blow it.


OK, now take your mental state and your maturity, ands add it to your confidence and good intentions from above. They will not help you when the shit hits the fan. This is not a popularity contest, nor is Miss America because being congeneal will not help you.

Shooting video is a skill. Either you have the experience and mental accumen to do it or you don't. I don't care who you are or what kind of person you are, you need several hundred jumps to develop the skills you need to focus your attention on a job, and continue skydiving safely at the same time.

The trick is that the people who do have th ebest attitudes are the ones who are conservative about it, and usually want to wait longer than suggested.

Just by trying to push the limits, a jumper has already made his attitude and intentions known.

[Pendejo 0]

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All of the confidence and good intentions you may have, and all of the confidence and good intentions of whom ever is coaching you means nothing when you climb out of the plane. YOU are getting yourself into a situaiton that may go bad. YOU are the only one who can help yourself at that point. Rickster, Norm Kent, and Gus Wing combined cannot save your ass if you blow it.

I think this is true of any aspect of skydiving. From "Cat C" in AFF to your first AFFI jump (and everything in between).

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Shooting video is a skill. Either you have the experience and mental accumen to do it or you don't. I don't care who you are or what kind of person you are, you need several hundred jumps to develop the skills you need to focus your attention on a job, and continue skydiving safely at the same time.

This is also true of anything to do with skydiving. From freefall to packing its all a learned skill.

I think that the reason so many jumpers want to fly camera before they are ready is that they don't understand what is involved. By pushing them away (unless your the DZO or S&TA at your DZ) without at least helping them understand that, just because you make it look like all a person has to do is put on the camera helmet and they will magically shoot great video. Are we really helping them (not to mention are we helping the DZ)? There is a lot of hard work involved, and it is not nearly as easy as 99% of up jumpers think (ever heard the term "if ya can't skydive shoot video"). Anyone who actually shoots video for hire knows that to be very untrue.

The trick is that the people who do have th ebest attitudes are the ones who are conservative about it, and usually want to wait longer than suggested.

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I agree

Just by trying to push the limits, a jumper has already made his attitude and intentions known.***

[davelepka 4]

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NO I'm not saying that a 100 jump wonder is ready to shoot video. What I am saying is that showing them why is much better than just telling them "your not ready".

Thats one thing. Others were talking about instructing them beacuse they would do the jumps anyway, and they'd be better off with the help. This is what I disagree with.

I understand that at some point, all skydiving activites come down to the individual jumper (tandems aside). However, unlike swooping, birdman, or even freefly, shooting video involves jumping with others who are not paying attention to what you are doing, or are unable to do anything about it anyway (such as tandems, beacuse once the drouge is out, all those guys can do is pull a handle).

I'll take a newbie up to freefly with me anytime. I got my eye on him the whole time, and I'm in control of the situation. Having a newbie film a four way I'm on? Not gonna happen. I'm focused on the four way, and who knows what the noob is doing out there.

[Pendejo 0]

I think I may have mis-usderstood what you were saying. I completely agree that teaching someone "cause their gonna do it anyway" is not the right attitude. We have found that most of the guys that want to start to soon are freeflyers. With the equipment that is available today, (side mount cameras and so on) there is a false sense of security in the skydiving community that doesn't see the dangers involved with flying camera.

If you look in the thread "deployment techniques" you will see a post I put in there about how we start a lot of the new guys that want to shoot video for hire. Most of the low timers bail during the 2-way jumps with me (thats when they see its a little harder than they thought). That was what I meant when I said showing is better than telling.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[newshooter12 0]

I completely understand the fact that "you have to lay in the bed you made for yourself," cover your own ass & act conservatively for your own well being as well as those around you. Sure some people take to video like a duck to water, but i'd be willing to bet that most people don't. There will be some period (hopefully their whole career) where they need to be willing to seek out advice & take constructive criticism. That takes good intentions.
Good intentions can't be acted on without skill...
Skill won't exist without experience...
Experience doesn't accumulate until you practice...
People that do practice are the ones that tend to be conservative, safe & spend the time
to prepare before the shit hits the fan.
What i'm trying to say is that it's all connected. Saying one part is more valuable is like saying the chain holding my neighbor's vicious dog to the tree will still hold him if it isn't connected to his collar. I don't want to be on the receiving end of that. Personally i've got the gear i need, but I may just sell my video camera so there isn't a temptation or pressure from others to put it on a helmet any time soon. Especially when people have already offered to have me borrow their camera helmet, or camera, or get my own & start jumping it. "Thanks for the offer." "I'll take it as a compliment." "It's too soon for me." That's what i've said and will continue to say.
thanks for the good discussion
matt

[jtval 0]

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3 years in the sport, actually.

However, 3 years is still more then 2 years. The experienced gained over the years is really just as important, if not more important then just jumps. I've seen folks blast through jumps and get 700+ their first year of jumping. Were they good skydivers? Sure. Were they experienced skydivers? Hell no, they hadn't been around long enough to experience a lot of different aspects of the sport and what happens when shit happens.

just to piggy back on that reply...
i think the original reason for the numbers is because a decade ago it probably wasn't as easy to get 10 jumps in on any given day. In order to reach the 500 milestone you probably had some dedication and some time in the sport. nowaday we can quick burn to 500+ jumps in a year etc. I wonder when those numbers were decided and how the sport has sped up comparably?

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