jumpergirl 0 #1 April 17, 2003 This post is for Viking... he asked me to post since he is at home in Louisiana where apparently the only working computer in the state is down. He has his dad's old parachute and this is stamped on one of the panels: "US PAPILLON registered trademark manufactured by ILC-Steinthal Inc. Roxsboro, NC for Steve Snyder Enterprises Inc. Serial #749 DOM Feb 1974" There is also a patch, like a red circle and on top it says "FA 97 + (or a T)" The manufacturer tag on the rig says "North American Aerodynamics Inc. Flemington, NJ Mini-system Sport parachute harness Part #10005 (he thinks) DOM (may be) July 1979 FAA TSO C23B" He wants to know if anyone can find any information on this kind of system. He's really interested in knowing about it. Thanks! Jaime P.S. It has a belly wart reserve and has been packed away in his dad's closet for 23 years!! And Dad bought it for $35.00! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #2 April 17, 2003 The "Papillion" was the french version of the Para Commander. Actually, I think it is probably the "original". These type of rounds were called "Lemoigne" (spelling?) parachutes. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think named after a French who invented the principle. The principle is to "pull down" the centre of the round parachute with a centre line to create more "pressure" and add a range of small openings in the panels. The effect is better glide, quicker turns. These parachutes were actually not even perfectly "round". Probably the first step towards the principle of flying "wings" instead of "dropping" in a silk parachute. The "Papillion" was very popular in Europe and there was a Czech version of the lemoigne type and a Russian version (think it was called UT8 or something like that, - these had a very peculiar pilot chute system, 2 pilot chutes where the spring was "inflating" "side-ways" like opening an umbrella, instead of "increasing" length - if you know what I mean). The american versions were the Para Commander and the Competition Para Commander (CPC). I jumped a CPC arund 1980 and loved it. I think this Papillion was made under license in the US as a competitor to the Para / CPC in the US market. All these were quite similar, with the CPC the fastest (but also most tricky openings). The mini-system was quite popular. It was still with reserve chest mounted. I had a "mini" at the time, packing the CPC and later the 5-cell Strato Star. Look at the picture to the left - thats me with the sytem on. They were smaller and more compact then the other containers on the market. But still designed for spring loaded PC and ripcord, with large rubber strings opening the container. There a lot of people that still love these parachutes and do some jumps in them from time to time. You probably can sell the system if it is still in good condition. Let a rigger check it out. Hope this helps.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #3 April 17, 2003 I'll give $200 for the entire system.... E-mail [email protected] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 April 17, 2003 And I know guys that sale vintage gear like that for more then $200. Not a whole lot of money, but more then 200. I've got a friend who I've seen jump his vintage gear more then his new gear. Then again, most of his vintage gear is gear he bought brand new when it wasn't "vintage". He tends to buy other containers, mains, etc too, he's said its very hard to find quality gear that's in good shape.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #5 April 17, 2003 Egad that sounds like my first sport parachute that I started jumping with at Homestead FL in 1975. Mine was in a modified Military harness and container. I think the modification was done by my instructor and rigger Tom Manning. The Pap was a pain to pack into its red sleeve and get the lines stowed properly. The center lines that pulled the apex of the canopy down were called "crown lines". I got my first 2 reserve rides thanks to the packing intracacies of that parachute and the stowing of the steering and crown lines. Both of the reserve rides were on the belly watermelon reserve which was a C-9 . I did some good accuracy under that Pap.... but it was strictly a downwind crash and burn into the pea gravel. Ouchies. I have no desire to ever jump one of those again. I am too old and brittle to subject my body to those landings ever again. But that said, on a fairly low wind day.... and aimed into the wind... a standup was really easy on it. My first sport jump on that canopy was a standup.. in the pea'sAmazon I have survived long enough to be older and wiser. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #6 April 18, 2003 dude you so rock!!! thats exactly the info i was looking for!!! Dad and i just hung the thing up off the top of the roof to get it hanging so we could try to figure out the lines and shit. The main itself looks brand fucking new not a stain or rip on it, hell the rubberbands on the d bag are still good !! I will bringing it back to California with me so a couple people can look at it. This is the rig that i saw in the closet when i was a young kid, this is the rig that got me into skydiving!!!! I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #7 April 18, 2003 Next question .. are you going to have a rigger check it out... and jump it??? be sure to get good at spotting...... they dont go fast but they are fun. and with a good flare... not too bad a landing in light windsAmazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #8 April 18, 2003 I am going to have a rigger take a look at it ofcourse! As for jumping it................................thats a HUGE maybe!! I would have to do it at Perris b/c they have a HUGE landing area. Also When i said it has a belly wart/chest mount, i mean it has the chest mount container but no actual reserve, ripcord, or free bag.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #9 April 19, 2003 Quote chest mount container but no actual reserve, ripcord, or free bag. Your chest mount reserve doesn't need a freebag. May not even need a pilot chute, depending on the reserve you choose -- nothing quite like hand-deploying it!Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #10 April 19, 2003 But you really don't want to hand-deploy into a Papillon. Really. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #11 April 21, 2003 I think i would like to have a spring load reserve PC in the event i had to flip on my back and use it! I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #12 April 21, 2003 In a belly-mount reserve, the lines are stowed in the container (and they look awesomely neat stowed there, too). The pilot chute (if you have one) normally sits on a kicker plate; a little piece of metal whose sole purpose in life to to give the pilot chute a good launch, and then fall off and be replaced. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #13 April 21, 2003 Viking, There are two ways to jump a chest mount. If you do not cutaway you do not use a pilot chute. If you do cutaway then you use a pilot chute. With old 2 shot capewells a cutaway was out of the question. If you had a malfunction with the main out you would pull the reserve and then "hand deploy" it. Throw it into the spin. If you had nothing out you would look, pull punch. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #14 April 21, 2003 "With old 2 shot capewells a cutaway was out of the question" Not at all, I saw plenty of cut aways 25 years ago I did one myself with 1 1/2 shot Capewells and chest mounted reserve without PC at around 1000 feet and had to hand feed the reserve lying on my back. Takes a little time so... was in a inflated reserve for 3 seceonds before hitting ground --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #15 April 21, 2003 ooooook not sure i want to try that!!! Did you have to change your shorts after that one?!I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #16 April 21, 2003 No, just the 8 nails in my ankle and the steel plate and 12 screws in my leg... 2 operations later.... Look, you should give the canopy a try if it is in good condition and the winds moderate. You can probably get it into a modern student rig with ripcord and springloaded PC, and then you will have a normal cut-away system and square reserve. Talk to a rigger. They are fun to try, they turn on a dime and a very different experience compared to a modern canopy. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #17 April 21, 2003 Holyshit man, So your a member of the Iron Man club? I am curios how a rigger would attach the pap to a set of modern three ring risers? THose crown lines are huge!! I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #18 April 21, 2003 You probably can't use small risers; however, there have been 3-ring risers made for the old round-style connector links. I had some. It might be cheapest to take an old set of 3-ring risers and have a rigger make them good to go with round-style connector links. It really means that you want the channel the connector link fits into be big enough only for the connector link -- it fits in there flat, rather than with the riser folded around it like the ones for rapide links or slinks. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #19 April 21, 2003 Don't know and maybe not possible. Actually most thought about container size and springloaded PC release. Good point about the size of the risers. But worth asking the question to a rigger. Most student rigs I have seen do not have mini risers, buy yes it might still be too bulky. But hey, you can always try it out in the "Mini" rig. Could be the releases are "one shot" Capewells, they are quite easy to get released compared to the older 2 shot and 1 and 1/2 shots.... Don't be a chicken --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #20 April 21, 2003 Easier than making or converting a set of risers:-- unfold the riser end so it lies flat-- insert a small piece of Type 12 as a buffer strip-- insert the L-bar link-- tack in placeA five or ten minute job, no stitch picking or machine sewing, and the risers can be easily restored to rapide-link configuration..Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #21 April 21, 2003 If you decide to jump it, I would STRONGLY encourage you to practice emergency procedures from a hanging harness with shot & a halfs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #22 April 21, 2003 Ok what the hell is a two shot, shot and a half and one shot? please explain in as much detail as possible I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #23 April 21, 2003 The following is distilled from a conversation with an older jumper and a read through PPM vol 1. Accuracy is not guaranteed, but I think I have it right. Capewells are a type of canopy release with a cover, then a release mechanism inside. With a 2 shot, the cover is opened, then two buttons are depressed simultaneously to release the riser. With a shot and a half, a short cable loop replaces the buttons. The cover is opened, then you put a thumb through the loop and pull, releasing the riser. With a single shot, all you have to do is pull the cover open. PPM says "the button style Capewell release is often difficult to operate as both sides have to be depressed simultaneously. The cable conversion is simpler." He goes on to explain that Capewells were originally designed only for releasing canopies on the ground (with rounds, you wouldn't break away before deploying the reserve). The shot and a half and one shot were modifications to make cutaways in the air easier. PPM says that the Mini Sytem came with Capewell cable releases (shot and a half). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #24 April 22, 2003 Visual.... Look at your Paragear on page 192. Look at the picture labeled 373 One on each side where your 3 rings now are located. We would flip open the cover, underneath is a ring that we would insert our thumbs thru and pull with "equal distribution." When you did that, the male portion left the female portion and your main canopy released. Later versions called the single shot (R2s & R3s) had the same male portion, but were wrapped with velcro and had little plastic tubes and when you pulled the plastic tubes the capewell came apart. In all honesty, I don't remember too much about the R2s & R3s (somebody feel free to jump in) as I went from 1 1/2 shot capewells to 3 rings VERY quickly and only had a couple of jumps on the R3s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #25 April 22, 2003 Okay, demonstrating geezerhood here:2-shots: open the Capewell cover, push both button latches, pull the locking lever forward. Designed to release on the ground.1-shots: looks like a 2-shot, but opening the Capewell cover pulls the locking lever forward, releasing the canopy immediately. Much better if you want to cut away from a malfunction, but suppose at 100' you notice that you're going backward fast, and the landing is going to hurt. You decide to open the covers of your 2-shots, so as soon as you start your PLF, you can push the buttons. Now is a bad time to find out that your 2-shots are in fact 1-shots, even though with the covers closed they look the same.1-1/2 shots: Compromise. The wire loop allows for tight friction fit instead of button latches -- easier to cut away -- and opening the covers by mistake won't be so bad.R2: I can only guess, from what I read in Poynter. I am unfamiliar with the R2 and the single-point R2-squared. Uses the load-bearing parts of the Capewell system.R3: Also uses the load-bearing parts of the Capewell, but has fabric and velcro cover, and allows a cut away by just pulling on a wooden or plastic dowel.Center lines: lines that run from the pulled-down apex of a round parachute to the connector links. Found on PC-class canopies -- and your collapsible pilot chute! They're going to support about half the load, so need to be about as strong as the suspension lines. Tubular nylon is the most common material used on PCs, but it stretches, and needs trim adjustments from time to time.Crown lines: run from the crown of a PC-class canopy up to the pilot chute bridle, hence the name. Typically made of Type 2 suspension line sleeving (stuff we frequently use for main closing loops now), since the primary function is to provide a load path from parachute to pilot chute, and probably not required if you free-bagged your main.So I'm looking through my Poynter's manual, in the canopy release section. Who is that handsome fellow showing off the Boothwells?Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
