A camera flying don't?

[SuperKat 0]

I don't think it's a good idea but I thought I'd ask anyway to get a definite answer. I tried looking in the 2004 SIM for the info but I wasn't lucky. So here goes.....

When a friend of mine gets signed off AFF, can I video their jumps? I know that AFF students aren't allowed to fly with another person or in a group until they get their A license. Would this kind of jump be considered RW or group flying if we're not even docking? What's the DOs and DON'Ts of this case scenario? Let the ripping begin. I have less than 10 camera jumps now and by the time my friend gets signed off AFF I'll probably have about 50-70 camera jumps. The purpose of all this is to give my friend free video and she can show her instructors how her body position, altitude awareness, and stability are in freefall.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[Zee 0]

Ask the S&TA - Should be able to give you all the answers you need. Answers from this forum might not apply to your DZ.

Peace,
Z

Action©Sports

[SuperKat 0]

I will most certainly do that first. What's your answer to this for your DZ or what you think is right or wrong?

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[indyz 1]

The SIM says

Quote

1. Refer to the USPA Instructional Rating Manual for
guidelines on minimum experience and qualifications for flying camera
for student training jumps.

a. A skydiver should have extensive camera flying
experience with experienced jumpers prior to photographing or videoing
student jumps.

b. The USPA Instructor supervising the jump should conduct a thorough
briefing with the camera flyer prior to boarding.

c. All procedures and the camera plan should be shared among the USPA
Coach or Instructor, the camera flyer, and the student making the
jump.

I don't have my IRM with me, and the online version is incomplete.

[diablopilot 2]

If your dropzone adhears to the USPA ISP, then no unless you have a COACH rating.

At least that's my interpritation. Students deserve a WIDE berth from novice jumpers and even experienced jumpers who have not learned the proper way to train someone.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[SuperKat 0]

Quote

1. Refer to the USPA Instructional Rating Manual for
guidelines on minimum experience and qualifications for flying camera
for student training jumps.

a. A skydiver should have extensive camera flying
experience with experienced jumpers prior to photographing or videoing
student jumps.

b. The USPA Instructor supervising the jump should conduct a thorough
briefing with the camera flyer prior to boarding.

c. All procedures and the camera plan should be shared among the USPA
Coach or Instructor, the camera flyer, and the student making the
jump.

This sounds like it refers to all student jumps prior to graduating AFP or AFF.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[SuperKat 0]

Quote

If your dropzone adhears to the USPA ISP, then no unless you have a COACH rating.

In no way, shape, or form was I planning on coaching or instructing her. She was going to jump and I was going to video her jumps and then we show it to her instructors. I wasn't planning on advising her about anything except keeping the skydive safe for both of us. I guess this is the fine line that I shouldn't cross. Which I knew probably wasn't a good idea to begin with. I'll just wait till she gets her "A" license then. Thanks All.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[indyz 1]

Quote

This sounds like it refers to all student jumps prior to graduating AFP or AFF.

As far as the USPA is concerned a student is a student until they have their A license.

[Zee 0]

Quote

I will most certainly do that first. What's your answer to this for your DZ or what you think is right or wrong?

Well, the term "extensive experience" is certainly vague - Filming students or recent AFF graduates is quite a bit different than flying with more experienced jumpers. As an experienced skydiver you expect people to react to situations in a certain manner. Newbies tend to react in ways you normally wouldn't expect and that can be pretty dangerous at times - You have to give them the time and space they need and allow them to make mistakes so they can better understand why they're expected to react in a certain way as opposed to another.

In my experience, it's not a very good idea to fly with low timers as a novice camera man. Although you may be quite comfortable in freefall in general, it takes a few hundred camera jumps to get perfectly comfortable jumping with camera gear and dealing with the additional distractions that come with it.

My advice: Spend some time filming more experienced jumpers and get acclimated to jumping with camera gear before filming your friend.

It all boils down to safety, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to accidently harm either your friend or yourself simply because you were a little too eager to catch her on film.

Peace,
Z

Action©Sports

[SuperKat 0]

Quote

As far as the USPA is concerned a student is a student until they have their A license.

Altough that's not clearly stated on the SIM, I get the point. It makes sense. Even if the jumper has quite a few jumps, that A license card is proof in the pudding.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[SuperKat 0]

Quote

My advice: Spend some time filming more experienced jumpers and get acclimated to jumping with camera gear before filming your friend.

Well said on all your points. I'm gonna do just that. No need for me to further inquire about this to anyone else at the DZ. Thanks All.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[salsicha 0]

I don't have my IRM with me, and the online version is incomplete



What is the IRM? And where do I get it?

thanks

.

___________________
salsicha - shaggy
www.skydiveinrio.com
Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

[freefalle 0]

instructor rating manual its available for purchase on the USPA web site

[AndyMan 7]

There are two ways that people can jump with a student.

1) they're appropriate rated coach/instructor.

2) they'are an appropriately skilled and qualified videographer.

The former is easy, either you've got the ratings or not. The Latter is more complicated, because that requires us to define the skills required to fly with students.

The USPA has published requirements for jumping with Students. They're listed in the IRM, and I don't have one handy, so I can't look it up.

That said, I would not want your first experience of jumping with a student to be one where there is no instructor present. Make no mistake, jumping with someone who does not yet have their 'a' license, IS jumping with a student. Unlicensed skydivers are students.

By my standard, you're unqualified to jump with a student unless you're appropriately rated, or you've established an appropriate skillset by shooting video of tandem or AFF jumps regularly.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[YahooLV 0]

An unlicensed skydiver cannot jump with anyone except someone rated as an instructor or coach.
And as a coach you can't touch them at all. Video can fly with them with NO contact. I've done it once or twice.

Just went through this same question.

http://www.curtisglennphotography.com

[indyz 1]

Quote

And as a coach you can't touch them at all.

Huh?

The IRM says "A USPA Coach may... make gripped exits with students during group freefall skills jumps."

Also, the SIM says "A USPA Coach may conduct freefall training and supervise jumps for those students in Categories E through H," and the Cat G Dive Plan #1 involves docking.

[YahooLV 0]

my bad...we've been going 'round and 'round with this topic with another school. Seems no one can make up our minds.

http://www.curtisglennphotography.com

[AggieDave 6]

Something that I haven't seen mentioned yet.

Do you really think it would be fair to your friend who's working with a coach to be there distracting them from their training? A "normal" video person might not, but since you're his/her friend, then it might be a big distraction.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DaGimp 0]

Quote

she can show her instructors how her body position, altitude awareness, and stability are in freefall.

my responce......when she graduates AFF then her instructors already know all this. To better further herself would to go up with a coach so she can have a point of referance, in air corrections...yes video helps alot.

"Professor of Pimpology"~~~Bolas

[indyz 1]

Quote

I don't have my IRM with me, and the online version is incomplete.

I know this thread is basically finished, but just for the sake of completeness...

I'm home now and I've got my IRM with me. For videoing coached jumps, the IRM recommends 300 group freefall skydives, 50 with the camera. As I interpret it, this is for a third person videoing the coach+student, or a coach who wears a camera. A camera flyer jumping alone with a student is for all intents and purposes performing the duties of a coach and must have a rating.