Line Stow Experiment//Hard openings.

[hookitt 0]

This post was influenced by the Hard Opening Thread.

I learned to pack using tight stows and have since double stowed using large rubber bands. The PD crew agreed and I also attended a Packing Seminar that John Le Blanc a bunch of years ago.

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(locking stows far apart on a large D-bag, heavy lines, loose stows, and a very big PC)

This was common, and now it's not.

This weekend (6 jumps) I used the loosest stows I've ever used. I used 3 inch bites of line on the locking stows using standard rubber bands. They were still loose. My d-bag does not have a pouch so I become very creative on the rest of the line stows. 6 jumps is not much to base any thing on but I'm already convinced by the results

My set up: Stiletto 97 with a current wingload of about 1.85 to 1. A 28 inch pilot chute on about a 5 foot bridle with a pull out.

On 4 jumps I pulled right out of my usual track. 1 I slowed down. 1 I came out of a low speed head down and tracked for about 1 second and pulled.

Each opening was staged and as soft as usual. There was no difference in opening speed and how it felt.

I've double stowed my whole skydiving career, and have done many experiments regarding rubber bands. This is the *first* time i've intentionally used extremely loose stow bands and the results have so far proven to be favorable.

I will continue to Pack this way. I've proven to my self this works just as well as my old method. Many less rubber bands will be sacrificed on account of me.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[fudd 0]

I use the small rubber bands and single stows on my Hornet 170 with 825 spectra lines.
No problems yet.

I don't double stow because of lazynes, and it has worked so far.
What seems to have greater effect than the stows, is how much line I leave from the last stow till the risers. Seems like short line give more off-heading and messy openings.
Just my experience.

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[Kolla 0]

Hey Tim - interesting stuff!
Is your pilot chute made out of ZP or F-111 type fabric?
And out of curiosity, what container were you jumping?
Let me know how it goes once you have a few more jumps on your canopy this way
Blue ones!
Kolla

Blue Skies Magazine

[ixlr82 7]

I have been going through lots of rubberbands (and extra time packing) to get really tight line stows. After hearing of your experiment and listening to what 'rigging65' said in the 'Hard Opening' thread, I am going to ease off on the hard stows, but still enough to keep the lines orderly. Maybe I'll sweat less this summer! I work way too hard packing.

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[imdskydiver 0]

Early Last year i packed using 3" stows and small microline rubber bands double stowed , I had to cut away twice , I wonder if stows that tight can cause the bag to spin while pulling through the rubber bands, I changed to 2" stows with just 1 wrap and have had great openings since.

[meatmissile 0]

I used to get hard openings as well, and after much discussion, it was found to be due to something called "line dump", which is something you supposedly get from stowing too loosely. I used tube stows, but has since switched to regular rubber bands, that solved the problem. I don't double-stow, though. I just use a rubber band that is the right length. The first two (excluding the closing ones) have to be somewhat longer, as the lines are double the thickness for a meter or so below the canopy before they join up.

--
ZZZzzzz....

[hookitt 0]

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it was found to be due to something called "line dump",

This was the reasoning behind my experiment. I can assure you I was getting line dumped this weekend. Edit to add: The locking stows stayed closed until line stretch the rest of the lines simply fell out of the stows. Read the Hard Opening Thread to understand why I did this. I mentioned Line Dump and out of sequence deployments and Line Dump. Rigging65 and hooknswoop agreed that hard openings tend not to be caused by Line dump.

What Rigging65 said was:

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Loose stow bands have nothing to do with how fast a canopy opens.

That was the basis of the experiment.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[MrHixxx 0]

I keep my stow size down to 2" - 1 1/2" for neatness reasons ( I have a Xaos). If one of those large stows gets one line around another, you've gotta bag lock. Food for thought...

-Hixxx

death,as men call him, ends what they call men
-but beauty is more now than dying’s when

[hookitt 0]

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If one of those large stows gets one line around another, you've gotta bag lock. Food for thought...

I promise I won't intentionally place lines through the loops of stowed line. Come on now!

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[markbaur 0]

I sometimes free-pack the lines on my main, which means the deployment start with "line dump." I still free-pack the lines on my reserve (in the sense that my reserve doesn't use rubber bands). The lines in the free bag pocket usually don't dump out, but there's not much slowing them down as they emerge from the pocket.
Stowing the lines to PD standards extends the time for accelerating the bag and pilot chute to your freefall speed, so reduces peak snatch force. But there are a number of other things which are more important, such as deployment speed, size of pilot chute, size/weight of parachute.
I don't think "line dump" is a significant source of hard openings, so I figure the primary purpose of line stows is to carry the lines away from things they might snag on, like body parts or container flaps. If this is so, the stows can be relatively loose but still functional.
Of course, I distinguish between "line dump" and "canopy dump," or bag opening before line extension. I have several experiences with canopy-first deployment at terminal, and don't plan on doing any more.
Mark

[sundevil777 94]

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I can assure you I was getting line dumped this weekend. The locking stows stayed closed until line stretch the rest of the lines simply fell out of the stows.

Maybe we should redefine "line dump" to mean the locking stows falling out?

I would never have thought that the other stows falling out could cause a problem, besides possibly causing the bag to spin.

Remember when guys used to truly free pack, no d-bag at all in the early '80's? Rick Horn somehow survived this practice for some time.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[drenaline 0]

I dunno if it has been mentioned before but I heard that Javelyn is making a new dbag with only the locking stows and then you free stows the rest of the lines.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[indyz 1]

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I dunno if it has been mentioned before but I heard that Javelyn is making a new dbag with only the locking stows and then you free stows the rest of the lines.

Sun Path and TSE are licensing the Lazy Bag. I talked to the Sun Path rep at SDC a few weeks ago. She said that it would be available later this year, once testing is completed.

FWIW, I met a guy who packs his main in a normal dbag with just the locking stows, then coils the rest of the lines into the pack tray. He thinks it actually softens his openings. I only had the nerve to try it once with my Spectre 170, but the opening didn't seem harder.

[hookitt 0]

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Hey Tim - interesting stuff!
Is your pilot chute made out of ZP or F-111 type fabric?

It's a correctly built ZP pilot chute. My container is a small Eclipse. I made the D-bag but it's just your typical standard no frills D-bag sized the way I like it.
-

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[RichM 0]

7 years ago one of my AFF instructors in the UK always did the neatest propack, used the 2 mouthlocks and then freestowed the rest; figure-of-8ing the lines into the bottom of the container and placing the bag on top. When I asked he said he had done this for over 1500 jumps with no problems. I have lost touch but I believe he is still jumping somewhere. He is called Rhino, but I doubt it's the same Rhino who posts here.

Rich M

[SkySlut 0]

I use about 1 inch bites for my velocity...cuts down on the line twists...soft openings as well.

[KellyF 16]

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I can assure you I was getting line dumped this weekend. The locking stows stayed closed until line stretch the rest of the lines simply fell out of the stows.

Maybe we should redefine "line dump" to mean the locking stows falling out?

That would result in "canopy dump" or "bag strip". The locking stows are not going to fall out unless the rubber bands break. When the PC starts lifting the bag out of the container, the canopy wants to stay in the container (Newton's First Law of physics). This will result in the locking stows being loaded and holding the bites of line tighter.

[garywainwright 0]

A very experienced (4500 ish jumps)instructor/cameraman at Langar also does this. Puts in the mouthlocks and freestoes the rest. He jumps a diablo 120 with dacron line and has had no problems.

PS Rich I think Rhino mainly jumps at Sibson or can be found singing with his band 'Grounded'

http://www.garywainwright.co.uk

Instagram gary_wainwright_uk

[Lolie 0]

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Puts in the mouthlocks and freestoes the rest.

What are mouthlocks? Are those just the locking stows?

-Miranda
you shall above all things be glad and young / For if you're young,whatever life you wear
it will become you;and if you are glad / whatever's living will yourself become.

[Kris 0]

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What are mouthlocks? Are those just the locking stows?

He is referring to the grommeted locking stows required to keep the bag shut.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[murrays 0]

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FWIW, I met a guy who packs his main in a normal dbag with just the locking stows, then coils the rest of the lines into the pack tray. He thinks it actually softens his openings. I only had the nerve to try it once with my Spectre 170, but the opening didn't seem harder.

I remember hearing about free-stowing when I started jumping. People quit after a fatality or two or three caused by lines coiling around a flap and horseshoeing the main. Another causative factor in these fatalities were flaps with large stiffeners on the ends that really lent themselves to creating a securely tied half hitch. (Due to the shape of the main flaps Racers were considered to be better rigs to free stow.) Not a good idea in my mind.

I think that the general principle is to get the lines off your back as quickly as possible. I think that as long as the rubber bands hold the lines long enough to get them out of the pack tray they have done their job...but you want the locking loops to hold until everything is under tension.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[rigging65 0]

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I remember hearing about free-stowing when I started jumping. People quit after a fatality or two or three caused by lines coiling around a flap and horseshoeing the main. Another causative factor in these fatalities were flaps with large stiffeners on the ends that really lent themselves to creating a securely tied half hitch. (Due to the shape of the main flaps Racers were considered to be better rigs to free stow.) Not a good idea in my mind.

What you're talking about is uncontrolled line-deployment. Nothing "uncontrolled" is very good in skydiving.

Lines need to be fed out in an orderly and controlled manner to keep stuff like what you're talking about from happening...but that doesn't mean that the lines need to be stowed to be controlled. As long as they're held in place and kept orderly until they reach stretch, it's all good!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[crapflinger2000 1]

I reject your effort to save rubber bands... I say use more, as many as possible, until all the friggin rubber band trees are friggin dead DEAD DEAD!!!

Why must you be such a tree-hugging otter-scrubber?

Go eat some granola you hippie!

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

[hookitt 0]

Wow Mr Crap... I missed this till today.. That's some funny stuff. What do you mean by otter scrubber?
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10 more jumps this week.

locking stows: regular rubber bands with 3 inch bites.

The rest of the lines barely stowed at all in various unusual configurations i wasn't willing to show any one. 2 jumps all but the lines locking stows were freepacked.

Most of the time I just tracked very hard and pulled while flaring out of it. One jump was with 10 pounds of weight (very aerodynamic AFF student).

I packed very neatly each time and insured the slider was where it was supposed to be.

results: Soft openings as per usual.

So as far as double stowing, it's no longer part of my procedure. If I pack for someone else i'll just do it so there is no concern on there part.

Back to the Gronola...

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto