Video for 4-way nationals.

[stingah 0]

Looking for a 4-way team to film during nationals. Will video for slot and $15 a jump. The team I was filming can't make it to national. You can call or email. (951)609-6125 or [email protected].

Scott L.

[Emu 0]

I wake up and thank sweet jeebus I live in Aus sometimes. Camera guys here get their slot.

[diablopilot 2]

A professional camera flier deserves slot and 20 minimum, plus if traveling for the just for the team accomodations and travel expense.

In exchange for that,
I run dual video.
I promise any busts I cause, I pay for that slot and take no fee for that jump.
I handle all dubs to judges, and make one dub master for the team at days end.
I handle my pack jobs and will make sure the team is packed and ready to go for the next load.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[bliston 0]

It's not always like that in the US - there are plenty of teams (mine included) that have a video flyer that is treated like a member of the team. Some people treat flying camera like an outside job and consider themselves a separate entity - which is fine. However, some video flyers are actually excited to be part of the team dynamic and happy participate just for their slot (or sometimes will even pay there own way).

I'm responding to this post simply because I'd hate to have some new jumpers think that competing or training with video automatically adds 10 or 11 bucks to the cost of each jump. I've got nothing against video flyers that charge for their product or teams that choose to pay for this service - people should just know that outstanding video flyers who jump for slot (or less) certainly exist.

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[rehmwa 2]

Damn straight, Ben.

We're a 5-way team and proud of it.

If the camera is a hired gun, then that's the same dynamic as a packer, or the pilot, or the DZO.

Do you think a "hired gun" should get one of the medals if the team wins? Or should the team keep the extra and give it to a sponsor instead? or make a nice plague with it to hang at the home DZ....

Edit: would like to change "plague" to "plaque", but think it's neat

Edit: Edit: If the entire team is sponsored, it sure makes this easier.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[diablopilot 2]

I applaud you for having a fifth team member. It's refreshing and appreciated I'm sure.
I started by paying my own way, and then for slot only, and I'm not opposed to being part of a team, so long as it's truly a team.

To often it's a matter of 4 people want someone to shoot their video, do their dubs, maintain the camera equipment, have 2 rigs, and never bust, but the 4 people don't offer any training, and simply bitch when a video bust happens.

It can work both ways.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Edit: Edit: If the entire team is sponsored, it sure makes this easier.

True enough! I worked for a jumpsuit manufacturer for quite a few years, and though it was common to get requests for sponsorship from 4 way teams, it was very rare to see a request for a camera suit in with the other 4 RW suits.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[rehmwa 2]

If our camera guys has things he wants to work on - we can and will design dives to accommodate that

He started trying different exits - maybe that means we don't get the first bits on a few jumps - that's good too, we have to try different things for different slots in the 4-way also that take a bit to dial in

one cameraman wanted to get some odd angle shots for video a few years ago - it was ok for him to do anything he wanted at the bottom end, and any time near the end of the season - really neat team vid as a result

agreed - if it's a real 5-way team, EVERYBODY needs to get training out of it

our payback is a camera guy that at Nationals a couple years ago was commented on by the judges (several stayed at the same hotel as us) "I like judging your team, you have as good or better video as any of the pros"

He has an equal voice in which category we compete in, training details, and post performance briefing. We debrief all 5 slots.


and we always make sure our BOCs are fresh spandex and tight - and we track big away from center

Edit: for outside help when camera is out

new guy pays his own way until he shows we can get 'judgable' video (i.e., he's practicing on us)

Judgeable vid? we'll cover slot

Tight judgeable vid? we'll cover slot + pack

anything better? tipping for extra good work or collateral duties (covering packs, manifesting, etc like you wrote - those a great perks that a great camera guy would do)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

Edit: Edit: If the entire team is sponsored, it sure makes this easier.

True enough! I worked for a jumpsuit manufacturer for quite a few years, and though it was common to get requests for sponsorship from 4 way teams, it was very rare to see a request for a camera suit in with the other 4 RW suits.

Oh - Michigan sponsored us a discounted rate 3 years ago and it was 5 RW suits and a camera suit - cameraguy ordered one of each

rigging sponsorships the last 3 years included the camera,

etc

that's just how we roll

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

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I promise any busts I cause, I pay for that slot and take no fee for that jump.

Isn't that like a plumber working on your house whose workmanship causes a major leak and says I'll adjust your bill and I won't charge you for the 15 minutes I took to repair that pipe. I also won't charge you for the copper pipe. But I still need to charge you the trip fee and there is a two hour minimum charge on labor. Exluding the the 15 minutes and the pipe, the grand total is $ 223.23. Have a nice day.


hahahahaha I know it isn't the same thing but if a bust was caused by the camera flyer then most teams would be out of contension for any chance at a win. Of course mistakes happen and they can happen to anyone. I'm not trying to say that the camera flyer deosn't deserve special consideration; but for a major bust caused by the camera flyer I would expect more than a sorry I won't charge you for my slot and fee on that jump.

Granted I am not a plumber or a camera flyer and so perhaps I just don't understand the nuances of what would be reasonable charges.
Smiley faces added like Spence suggests

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[frost 1]

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I applaud you for having a fifth team member. It's refreshing and appreciated I'm sure

cheeky bastard ;)

I have to agree with most of your points.

A good 4-way team has certain expectations of their camera. If they want quality video - they should compensate the guy that provides it. $10 for a novice 4 way video up to 20-25 bucks for a good camera guy with a dual cam set up is the norm.

A team can get a "free" video guy i am sure. But there is a good chance they will get what they paid for - a noob camera guy who will bust the exit and a bunch of grips since he will be flying too flat.

"Yeah, but you get a free jump!" just doesn't cut it. 4 way video IS work. Why should I work for free? What about wear and tear on my gear? What if the camera breaks? what if I have a cut away? I am risking all that on a fun jump too, but at least i am having fun and there is nothing i have to deliver, no pressure, no expectations.

I also started for free - a season of learning the 4 way video, getting better at it. We were all good friends and i never felt like a "hired" video. I had great times jumping and hanging out with these guys. So i had an ethical dilemma bringing up the money question next year when i felt that i was good enough to start getting paid. I talked about it to one of my mentors, a teacher by trade and a great guy who i respect very much. We had a good conversation about it and he convinced me that it is OK and that they all would understand. And they did. They appreciated my concerns and were cool with pitching in 3 bucks each per jump.

These days, when a good solid 4 way team asks me to do their video "for free" I respectfully decline the opportunity for a free jump and get on that same load to do a freefly jump for the full price of a lift ticket. If it's a newer team, someone just starting out, a Rookie challenge or a student i do it for them as a way of giving back. But i dont make it a rule. It IS work and i hate working :)

Sorry for a long post :)

[AMax 0]

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It's not always like that in the US - there are plenty of teams (mine included) that have a video flyer that is treated like a member of the team.

Sean Ralls (aka Shroom), my teammate of 4 years is like that. He became a part of my intermediate team after having competed at advanced level for several seasons. We covered his slot and he picked up the rest of the charges. He was always included into all team meetings and businesses and his voice always counted equally to everybody else's.

[gaillou 0]

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A good 4-way team has certain expectations of their camera. If they want quality video - they should compensate the guy that provides it. $10 for a novice 4 way video up to 20-25 bucks for a good camera guy with a dual cam set up is the norm.

A team can get a "free" video guy i am sure. But there is a good chance they will get what they paid for - a noob camera guy who will bust the exit and a bunch of grips since he will be flying too flat.

it's SO different in France!!
we'll see at nationals if our videomate flies too flat..
I can bet some beers on who do the best videos

Guillaume

French 4-way & 8-way suporter

[stingah 0]

Sorry for starting this post. I'm just looking for a team to film. By the way i'm still looking.

[rehmwa 2]

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Sorry for starting this post. I'm just looking for a team to film. By the way i'm still looking.

this is much more interesting a thread than just some guy using the forums to advertise

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[diablopilot 2]

Sorry for derailing your post, but you've got to admit, it's keeping it at the top of the list.

Have fun at Nats Scott.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[siddacious 0]

Quote

A professional camera flier deserves slot and 20 minimum, plus if traveling for the just for the team accomodations and travel expense.

In exchange for that,
I run dual video.
I promise any busts I cause, I pay for that slot and take no fee for that jump.
I handle all dubs to judges, and make one dub master for the team at days end.
I handle my pack jobs and will make sure the team is packed and ready to go for the next load.

I think this is reasonable if you're "hiring" a videographer. This is pretty much what my team did for our first competition, and it worked out well. That said, if the camera guy is considered part of the team, paying them $20/jump plus slots is a bit much. If you are treating your camera guy a like a team member and not a hired hand, then they should be willing to act like one and pull some (financial) weight. Maybe expecting them to cover their own slot and packer is a bit much for someone who is producing decent "judgeable" video, but makeing money when the rest of the team is spending money seems off to me.

Unfortunately, not many people have becoming an Airspeed quality video flyer as a goal, and it seems to me that it is perceived as being boring or not as fun as flying a normal slot. As such, it seems to be the case that some sort of incentive is needed to motivate camera flyers to do 4-way video as opposed to free flying with some friends or making money doing tandem video.

A dolor netus non dui aliquet, sagittis felis sodales, dolor sociis mauris, vel eu libero cras. Interdum at. Eget habitasse elementum est.

[rehmwa 2]

OK - it's fun to mock posts, but yours just about perfectly sums it up for me.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[frost 1]

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If you are treating your camera guy a like a team member and not a hired hand, then they should be willing to act like one and pull some (financial) weight.... makeing money when the rest of the team is spending money seems off to me.

As far as being a part of the team and jumping with your friends, i think that's one of many reasons why i chose to do 4 way video and not tandem video, which pays 5 times as much. But the rest of the team is spending money on having a good time and doing what they love doing. The video guy is working. He is using and risking the video gear and stressing his neck. Is it not reasonable to get paid for that kind of work? Isn't it in good team spirit to pitch in a couple of bucks each to ensure that your 5th team mate is not getting too burned out and in case he has a camera malfunction or a cutaway his expenses are partly covered? He already invested a lot of money on his video gear...

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it seems to me that it is perceived as being boring or not as fun as flying a normal slot. As such, it seems to be the case that some sort of incentive is needed to motivate camera flyers to do 4-way video as opposed to free flying with some friends or making money doing tandem video.

As someone who's been doing it for almost 3 years now, let me tell you ... it can get pretty boring :) Sometimes you find yourself thinking and doing the weirdest things in freefall, trying to make it a little more fun. :) Also, even getting paid for these jumps, a lot of times at the end of the day I would rather NOT do another 4 way video jump and instead go freeflying with my friends.

P.S. to OP, your post has mutated as always is the case here :) But it generated a good discussion and i am sure it'll help some new camera guy wanting to do 4 way video in the future

[elltee56 0]

Mike, You do excellent video and I am proud to have helped such a good guy started.
Are you doing video for this year's Nationals?
I am doing video for an 8 way team for the Nationals.
Hope to see you soon. L.T.

You are only as good as you think you are.

[billvon 2,400]

> Is it not reasonable to get paid for that kind of work?

Sure, if you can pull it off. If you prefer to do it for free, that's great too.

>Isn't it in good team spirit to pitch in a couple of bucks each to ensure
>that your 5th team mate is not getting too burned out and in case he has
>a camera malfunction or a cutaway his expenses are partly covered?

Would it be too much to ask for you to chip in for one of your teammates to get another few dozen jumps in, so you can all stand together on the podium at Nationals?

It works both ways.

>Also, even getting paid for these jumps, a lot of times at the end of the
>day I would rather NOT do another 4 way video jump and instead go
>freeflying with my friends.

That's also fine; some RW types feel the same way.

[frost 1]

Thank you LT, and i am proud to have gotten some great advice from you!

I will be there from Sat to Wed, hope to catch you there!

[frost 1]

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Would it be too much to ask for you to chip in for one of your teammates to get another few dozen jumps in, so you can all stand together on the podium at Nationals?

I am sorry i dont see the logic there... a few dozen jumps will not make or break one single person, wont help a team get on the podium if they were not ready before those few dozen jumps. A few dozen paid jumps even at 10 bucks will help a video guy replace the camera when it breaks, so the team can continue to have video.

And again they are training, having a good time and enjoying themselves (well, hopefully ;). The video guy is WORKING and with a team that is NOT having a good time and all upset about each other's performances he is working twice as intensely, stressing not just physically but mentally too. Big difference, IMO.

[PhreeZone 15]

Through out the course of a year of training (150 jumps) of picking up slot and $20 per jump for the video flyer costs each jumper about $1500 if slots are $20. If they were'nt paying the $20 in camera fees they could have $750 or 37 more jumps. 37 jumps is more then enough for more intermediate teams to clean up a block to get an extra point or two in a round.

I'd rather fly 4 way video then tandems, its a a lot more enjoyable in my opinion. I've done it for nothing more then slot at every local meet and slot and part of my travel at Nationals.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,400]

>A few dozen paid jumps even at 10 bucks will help a video guy replace
>the camera when it breaks, so the team can continue to have video.

Right - but that $360 could also buy half an hour of tunnel time for the weaker members of the team, and that definitely COULD make or break a team's chances of, say, a bronze vs. not medaling.

As others have said, it all has to do with the goals of the team. If it's 5 people trying for a medal, then they all contribute their time, money and expertise to the effort. If it's 4 people looking for an employee, that's fine too. But then they stand on the podium as a 4-person team and their employee.