Friends in Low Places

[PrairieDoug 0]

Help -- I've gone low and can't get back up! Had a frustrating pick-up 6-way on Saturday when the formation built and slowed down just before I was ready to dock, and I sunk below it. (It was not a matter of overshooting a swoop, although I have also done that.) This doesn't happen frequently, but when it does I can't seem to effectively slow my fall rate to get back to the formation. The group eventually released grips and flew down to me, but it sucks when the first point is at something like 6 grand.

I'm sure that the best advice is to anticipate a slower fall rate as the formation builds to avoid going low in the first place. Any advice on what to do next time I find myself low despite that? Thanks.

[BikerBabe 0]

0th (OK I added this later): Dress for success. If you are a faster faller, wear a looser suit, etc.

1st. Get out from under the formation

2nd. Turn sideways to the formation. If you continue to face the formation, looking up just makes you arch your upper body more and defeats your slowfall. If you turn sideways, you can still de-arch and look at the formation.

3rd. Get into your best slowfall position. If you don't know what I'm talking about, get some tunnel time and practice going up and down in the tunnel about 1 million times. Basically, de-arch THROUGH YOUR HIPS as well as your upper body. I try to touch the base of my spine to my rig. Usually this involves dropping my knees as well.

It's hard to coach something like slowfall over the net. get a coach, go to the tunnel, and practice it.

Sometimes, if the base is falling really slow, you'll never get up there. I was on a 20-way once, went low, and couldn't get back. My protrack said I was falling at 98 mph...in my 4-way suit!!!! I think at that point I was hosed. I went and changed into my freefall gear.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[rehmwa 2]

I have a hard time describing it, but once you are flying mantis, the slow fall position is a long flat board (not hugging the beach ball). I used to fall very fast, now my normal fall rate is right at 120 and my range is HUGE.

I'd recommend a tunnel camp and have the coach emphasize this drill (aw Bill, that's your answer to everything)

I'll try to describe - the hands/arms are out in front of you palms down. The legs are straight and the booties laid on the side (maximize the surface area) and the head is up and slipping air (this counters the tendency of the legs to send you into a forward track - the loss of air past your face is MORE than made up by the extra area you get from your legs). Very effective - remember, the legs are like 50% of your cross sectional area.

Try to get someone who flies mantis (seriously) to show you. If you ask some old timer, you'll get the spiel about hugging the beach ball and then you'll have to unlearn that junk later.

Edit: Sorry BikerBabe - I just don't agree with dearching and the flat technique -does- allow you to look up. (I did the dearch thing for 14 years - this is better. I wish I had a picture)

I know this is on some other post somewhere......

good luck

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Oh, PrairieD - If you don't have booties, then go ahead and hug the beach ball.

Better yet - get booties.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,623]

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Help -- I've gone low and can't get back up! Had a frustrating pick-up 6-way on Saturday when the formation built and slowed down just before I was ready to dock, and I sunk below it. (It was not a matter of overshooting a swoop, although I have also done that.) This doesn't happen frequently, but when it does I can't seem to effectively slow my fall rate to get back to the formation. The group eventually released grips and flew down to me, but it sucks when the first point is at something like 6 grand.

I'm sure that the best advice is to anticipate a slower fall rate as the formation builds to avoid going low in the first place. Any advice on what to do next time I find myself low despite that? Thanks.

"If you don't want to be low, don't go there", Jerry Bird.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BikerBabe 0]

Well, actually, that's one of the other ways that was shown to me in the tunnel. You could do a big flat X as well!

The de-arch works better for me, however.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[rehmwa 2]

Hey BB - Sorry it didn't work for you, it did wonders for me. I even had very good performance with this while dropping one knee (?). On return from camp, I was able to stay up with a little 85 pound local student and still be fairly manuverable.

I'd say it looks mostly like the body position that George Reeve had when playing Superman and flying.........

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[cruzit 0]

I'm with you Bill, the superman as I call it is the cat's meow. I had to unlearn the beach ball stuff. The first time I tried the superman, I popped up so fast that I had to dive back to the formation.

[rehmwa 2]

Different strokes....

Let's hope that PrairieD can figure out what "works for him" with all this advice.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[PrairieDoug 0]

Thanks for all the feedback. I'll try the various suggestions and see what works best for me. You guys (and babes!) are very helpful.

[harryskydives 0]

If some one is going low, and they are doing a fair job of slow following, Just breaking and going to the next point should be enough for them to get in sync with the fall rate. If the formation has to fly down to the low person there is more going on than just the formation slowing down. Often when some one goes low, and keeps going low, they are looking up at the formation and spilling lots of air. But think they are slow falling. Get a few friends together with a camera flyer on level and do some fallrate change drills.Do a proper debrief, repeat as necessaray.

Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time...

[Samurai136 0]

If you're there, dock before the formation builds and slows down.

It also depends on how slow the formation is falling. If you sink out/ or the formation floats/ and you try to get up but seem to be a constant distance low you've matched their fall rate. It may not be possible to get back up if the formation is falling at your slowest fall rate and you end up a bit low.

This happens to me on occasion and the experienced big-way jumpers usually advise "anticipate that the formation will slow down as it builds". DOH!

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[skybytch 259]

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This happens to me on occasion and the experienced big-way jumpers usually advise "anticipate that the formation will slow down as it builds".

Dress for success. Choose your jumpsuit based on where you are in the formation. Most bigway jumpers that I know have a "quiver" of jumpsuits, sleeves and weights and choose among them after looking at the planned formation. Many also keep a baggy sweatshirt on hand in case their slow suit isn't slow enough.

Figuring out before a jump what to wear is a hard skill to learn... and only works if you have access to a variety of suits.

[steve1 5]

This is the first I've heard of the superman flare....I'll have to give it a try. Do you de-arch with this or just lay flat? Would this work very well with dive loops?.....So far I don't use them because I've got in the habit sometimes of putting my arms out in front and I hate having that restriction of movement.....Steve1

[cruzit 0]

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the hands/arms are out in front of you palms down. The legs are straight and the booties laid on the side (maximize the surface area) and the head is up and slipping air (this counters the tendency of the legs to send you into a forward track - the loss of air past your face is MORE than made up by the extra area you get from your legs)

Pretty good description. When I execute...I tend to push down a little with my arms...but I don't de-arch. I've never attempted with dive loops. I would think it would work.

[rehmwa 2]

I bet if you sometimes have the arms in front, you are already halfway there.

It's best to have someone show it to you while you learn Mantis - I don't write this stuff clearly enough. Take a tunnel training session or camp (Airspeed, NSL, get the tunnel manager to find you a coach, hire Ron, it's all good.) I'm going in a couple weeks and hope to dial in the fall rate thing just a little more for extra range (
Dearching tends to get you to drop your knees - which makes you fold up your legs a little - thus taking your booties out of the air - and using the booties was the whole point in the first place!! That's why I don't like 'hugging the beach ball', it's inefficient. However, if you do the long flat thing well, you can make a pocket with your hips and still keep the booties in the wind.

Get a competitor to demonstrate it with you on a 2-way (monkey see monkey do dive), it's really easiest that way. (I'd say it's mostly just flat, not de-arched so much as just cupping some areas. "dive loops" are on risers.

Do you mean "swoop cords"? I've never had any use for them except when doing video.)

You will likely also get different answers from big-way types than 4-way types. For example, I'd never recommend using a loose suit to control fall rate until after you learn this method for either use but afterwards: on big ways, you are looking to dial in fall rate and don't move much so a sweatshirt and sleevelets are fine - I've never used anything but my competition suit on big ways since I've changed to mantis - before, I had a loose suit, a tight suit, and a big sloppy sweatshirt just in case - and weights sometimes. For 4-way, you want to be manurerable so extra slop is not a good thing - best if your lightweight teammates add weight so you are all comfortable at the fastest guys comfort zone.

and so on and so forth

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Mad47 0]

You should also learn how to prevent a problem in the first place. In other words do not go low! Know who is you cross partner on every formation and maintain the levels and eye contact with this person. On bigger groups anticipate fall rate changes as formation builds. Big things always tend to float as more and more people dock. Be prepared to slow down and you will not be surprised to find yourself several feet lower when you were about to take a grip

[fudd 0]

Go directly under the formation, and they will come down to you (Seriously, don't do that....it was a joke!)

Seriously, some good advices here. especially to turn 90 degrees so you don't look up.
To get a good dearch I find that it helps to pull in my stomach. Almost like you will croach after a hard punch in the stomach.

Also remember that everybody in the formation have a responsibility to keep the fallrate up. Far to many relax way to much when they are in the formation, not helping the floaters waiting to dock at all.

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[Nick 0]

I used to get this problem quite a bit, even when flying 4 way (must be all the pies I eat and guiness I drink!) however I found that I had no problems jumping with all sorts of people in Eloy, all I can put this down to is the time I spent in the tunnel and learning to fly my body better.

Also I totally agree with the concept of making yourself long (arms out from and legs out back) rather than the old hugging the beach ball concept for slow fall, it's much more efficient.

Nick
Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW!

[rehmwa 2]

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. Far to many relax way to much when they are in the formation, not helping the floaters waiting to dock at all.

Oh, good comment. Also, I find another big problem here jumping with instructors of all people. (Popping up between points to check things out sometimes subtly and sometimes blatant). That'll ratchet your rate slower and slower throughout the dive.

I think for this it's also the fear of going low. It's self fulfilling though if you keep slowing the dive down as you go.

You need to trust your teammates to just settle into the comfortable fallrate and keep going both during the formation and the transitions.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,623]

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Also remember that everybody in the formation have a responsibility to keep the fallrate up. Far to many relax way to much when they are in the formation, not helping the floaters waiting to dock at all.

I hear this often and I don't believe it is half as prevalent as some organizers claim. The simple fact is that interference drag will significantly slow a formation below the speed of solo jumpers or as-yet unattached jumpers waiting to dock. This is the case even if those already docked maintain exactly the same body position as they had prior to docking.

Formations slow as they get larger - that's a fact of physics, not (necessarily) sloppy skydiving. Organizers and skydivers that don't account for this are making an error IMO.

PS if the floaters are waiting, they are too slow or screwed up the exit.


Added in edit:

Went and checked the literature on interference drag. Needless to say, no-one seems to have ever made measurements on human bodies. However, there's lots of data on cylinders. It seems that 2 parallel cylinders (like skydivers bodies) with space between them equal to their diameter (like in a compressed accordion, or a tight star formation) have additional drag of around 40% as compared to their total drag when widely separated. This is a BIG drag increase and could slow a formation a whole lot. The interference drag decreases rapidly as the spacing between cylinders is increased.

This would also explain the often seen phenomenon of people falling out of formations when they release grips during a point transition. All the time they're in the formation they experience the extra drag, but as soon as they move away, suddenly their drag drops and down they go. Better skydivers don't have this problem because (a) they anticipate, and (b) they tend to stay closer to the others during the transitions.

Just a SWAG.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>I hear this often and I don't believe it is half as prevalent as some
>organizers claim. The simple fact is that interference drag will
> significantly slow a formation below the speed of solo jumpers or as
>-yet unattached jumpers waiting to dock. This is the case even if
> those already docked maintain exactly the same body position as
> they had prior to docking.

I agree that interference drag can be a factor, but I also think that if a skydiver tries to dock and does not change their body position, they are not flying their bodies. The body positions you need for the swoop, approach, hover, close to dock, dock and flying the slot once docked are very different; anyone flying a static body position will not have much luck on big-ways.

Aside - the interference drag thing can also help people who are worried about going low. Essentially if you can plan your (inevitable) descent such that it passes through your slot, you can use the interference drag to slow you down just before you take grips. This is a very dangerous thing to try; you have to be sure that your descent rate is such that you will not load the formation when you take grips. I've used it on occasion when I'm closer to the base, and am weighted up to maintain fall rate.

[kallend 1,623]

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>I hear this often and I don't believe it is half as prevalent as some
>organizers claim. The simple fact is that interference drag will
> significantly slow a formation below the speed of solo jumpers or as
>-yet unattached jumpers waiting to dock. This is the case even if
> those already docked maintain exactly the same body position as
> they had prior to docking.

I agree that interference drag can be a factor, but I also think that if a skydiver tries to dock and does not change their body position, they are not flying their bodies. The body positions you need for the swoop, approach, hover, close to dock, dock and flying the slot once docked are very different; anyone flying a static body position will not have much luck on big-ways.

Aside - the interference drag thing can also help people who are worried about going low. Essentially if you can plan your (inevitable) descent such that it passes through your slot, you can use the interference drag to slow you down just before you take grips. This is a very dangerous thing to try; you have to be sure that your descent rate is such that you will not load the formation when you take grips. I've used it on occasion when I'm closer to the base, and am weighted up to maintain fall rate.

I'll bet you have also seen people able to fall with the formation, in a hard arch, when a few feet out but when they approach closer to dock they can no longer maintain the fall rate and float up.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[fudd 0]

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I hear this often and I don't believe it is half as prevalent as some organizers claim. The simple fact is that interference drag will significantly slow a formation below the speed of solo jumpers or as-yet unattached jumpers waiting to dock. This is the case even if those already docked maintain exactly the same body position as they had prior to docking.

Interference drag is excatcly WHY one needs to adjust the body position when in the formation. Your job is not over once docked. That is actually when it begins.

Even in 4-way it is necesary to adjust for interference drag. When the center builds a compressed, they must adjust for the point and tail to be able to do their job. Point and tail must also be prepared for the compressed to slow down. It's teamwork.

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PS if the floaters are waiting, they are too slow or screwed up the exit.

Yeah right..
I hope everybody got's the irony. If the floaters have to wait, they are exactly where they're supposed to be. Waiting for the center of the formation to build first so that they can dock.

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[kallend 1,623]

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I hear this often and I don't believe it is half as prevalent as some organizers claim. The simple fact is that interference drag will significantly slow a formation below the speed of solo jumpers or as-yet unattached jumpers waiting to dock. This is the case even if those already docked maintain exactly the same body position as they had prior to docking.

Interference drag is excatcly WHY one needs to adjust the body position when in the formation. Your job is not over once docked. That is actually when it begins.

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I'm not disputing this. I AM disputing that it's "relaxation" on the part of later dockers that slows the formation. It's additional drag that slows the formation, and that additional drag is due to interference between all the jumpers, not just those on the outside.

Having been on big ways that were both well engineered and poorly engineered with respect to fall rate changes as they built, it's a surprise to me that some organizers still don't get it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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