Rigging- "What would you do if"

[dex 0]

During a reserve repack:

What would you do if you came across a reserve that might not have saved the users life? ("small" rigging error like a packed hard pull or bad closing loop routing)

What about one that was a total mal waiting to happen (molar strap left on.....front and rear line groups connected backwards on one side...)

Would you notify the Jumper/owner of gear? The rigger who packed it? What if it was you who packed it? Anyone else? What if it was rental/student gear?

and as a jumper who didn't pack their own reserve what would you do if you were notified of a possible mal or a total mal on your reserve had it been used? Would you want to know? Would it keep you from jumping again?

[RichM 0]

As a jumper I would want to know. I would carry on jumping but I certainly wouldn't use that reserve packer again. I ensure that the dzo/s&ta knew about it as well. When it comes down to it the reserve is last chance. I'm sorry but there is no excuse in my book for reserve packing errors, it is my last chance to live. If you can't be exceptionally thorough don't do the job.

Rich M

[kevin922 0]

Do you think a rigger should be held responsible for a death resulting from an obviously neglect on his part? (i.e. leaving the "molar strap" on) since he/she basically murdered the skydiver.

[dex 0]

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Do you think a rigger should be held responsible for a death resulting from an obviously neglect on his part? (i.e. leaving the "molar strap" on) since he/she basically murdered the skydiver.

It's important to remember that you leave the plane with 2 parachutes... it's YOUR responsibility to make sure the first one works. If the second one opens after you fucked yourself... bonus. yeah yeah not all main mals are the jumpers fault... in my opinion most are.

As for holding the rigger responsible I think it should be limited to having his ticket on the line. I don't view leaving a molar strap as murder unless it was intentional.... Skydiving is an activity where something as simple as a badly seated grommet can kill you... noone but you can accept the risk that jumping out of planes brings except you.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Do you think a rigger should be held responsible for a death resulting from an obviously neglect on his part? (i.e. leaving the "molar strap" on) since he/she basically murdered the skydiver.

Manslaughter. Yes, if a rigger's negligence kills a skydiver, i think they should be held responsible.

Hook

[skycat 0]

What about if they forget something major like sending a cypres in for it's 4/8 year check or didn't put batteries in when they were due, but marked or didn't mark on the card that they did?

Or assembled it with one of the above not done?

Fly it like you stole it!

[kevin922 0]

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What about if they forget something major like sending a cypres in for it's 4/8 year check or didn't put batteries in when they were due, but marked or didn't mark on the card that they did?

Or assembled it with one of the above not done?

I don't think forgetting to send a cypres is is a "major". First of all I feel the cypres dates are YOUR responsibility, the rigger is simply there to remind you. A rigger isn't going to force you at gunpoint to send your cypres back. If you want to take the risk and not send it in, then so be it -- eventually you will send it in (most likely) and will still end up paying the same as if you did it when you were supposed to.

Lieing on a card - saying you put batteries in when you didn't is a different issue. But then you have to ask yourself - what do you think about pencil packing?

[PhreeZone 15]

Its illegal to repack a cypres that has not had its factory service done, or thats not following the battery replacement schedule correctly.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[hookitt 0]

Actually it is the riggers responsibility during a repack to ensure the cypres is with in factory Specs. The rigger is not allowed to repack the rig with the Cypres in it, if the 4 year is out of date or the batterries are out of date.

It is the owners responsibility on whether or not you want the rigger to leave the rig unpacked until the service is complete or pack it with out the cypres.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[sunshine 2]

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As for holding the rigger responsible I think it should be limited to having his ticket on the line. I don't view leaving a molar strap as murder unless it was intentional.... Skydiving is an activity where something as simple as a badly seated grommet can kill you... noone but you can accept the risk that jumping out of planes brings except you.

So if a drunk driver accidentally killed someone, should he not be held responsible?

Forgetting a molar strap IS a big deal. If a rigger can't remember to remove it, he/she has NO business being a rigger. And if someone dies because of it, the rigger should damn well be held responsible for it.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[dex 0]

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What about if they forget something major like sending a cypres in for it's 4/8 year check or didn't put batteries in when they were due, but marked or didn't mark on the card that they did?

Or assembled it with one of the above not done?

I'd say a molar strap being left on a bag is way more negligent then anything you can do with a cypres.. again I think if they make mistakes with cypes or other rigging problems their ticket should be on the line... not their personal lives.

I'm a licensed skydiver I'm responsible for getting my main over my head... if I keep jumping for the rest of my life eventually I will most likely have to use my reserve... I hope it works.

But I don't think it would be fair to punish the guy who installed the airbag if I did something really risky with my car and slammed myself into my steering wheel. A reserve parachute is an emergency device and isn't 100% reliable... Some of the failure points come from me.. some of them come from the rigger, some from the manufacturer. They aren't forcing me to jump, I'm not paying any of them enough money for the service they are providing me... (50-100$ is not enough to be responsible for someone's life)

Every rigger should be willing to let a loved one jump a rig with reserve they pack. Every rigger should pack every rig with as much skill as they can and be sure that they are current etc etc... but I don't think any rigger should ever go to a jail for something that's at least partly.. prolly mostly my fault...

[hookitt 0]

Now we are focusing on a lot of what if's.

The highest esteemed academics would never follow this debate down this slippery slope.

This is a circular arguement with no agreement possible.

Good night I must sign off for the evening. I have soup to eat and Shrek to watch.

Tim

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[dex 0]

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So if a drunk driver accidentally killed someone, should he not be held responsible?

Forgetting a molar strap IS a big deal. If a rigger can't remember to remove it, he/she has NO business being a rigger. And if someone dies because of it, the rigger should damn well be held responsible for it.

In the case of a drunk you're putting random strangers at risk for injury/death... I don't think it's reasonable for a person to be drunk and then to drive and kill someone... they should be held responsible

I do think it's reasonable for a rigger not to be perfect. Looking back on the post forgetting a molar strap is prolly an excessive example.. it IS a big deal.. any rigging error is... and someone who packs a reserve with a molar on doesn't have any business being a rigger.[edit]err packs it with it on and leaves it on[/edit] We are on the same page so far.....

I personally don't think the "murder" or manslaughter charges fit for a rigger who makes a mistake. Looks like we disagree on this one.

[riggerrob 558]

PIA published dsciplinary procedures many years ago. Let's see if I can remember the procedure.

First error, call the offending rigger and quietly tell him what you found. If he is chagrined, good. That is as far as it goes. Keep your notes to yourself except for quietly mentioning it to the owner.

Second error, tell the offending rigger. Take more notes and photos. I cannot remember if PIA recommended a letter to the offender for the second offence.

Third error, take notes and photos before you call in the FAA. Hint, DPREs are the only FAA employees who have clue what riggers are talkning about.

I have phoned a couple of riggers on - non life threatening - first offences. Fortunately they were professional enough that those were the only errors I have seen from them

[Mindygirl 0]

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Its illegal to repack a cypres that has not had its factory service done, or thats not following the battery replacement schedule correctly

Yes, a guy at my home dz was due for a repack, and the rigger knew it was time for his 4 year check on the cypres. This guy didn't have the money, so our rigger had to take the cypres out, and the guy continued to jump a few weeks without it. It seems safer to jump with a cypres that is a few weeks past the 4 year check point, then to not have one at all. What is the reason it is illegal??

Wow!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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What is the reason it is illegal??

The FAA says that, if installed, an AAD must be maintained according to the manufacturer's instructions.

Hook

[skygod7777 0]

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What is the reason it is illegal??

i believe because if it would miss fire, and kill someone, it would cover there ass. and the cypress just needs to be maintained. but i don't know for sure, i just listen to what the manufactor says.

and maybe someone should tell the guy that you have 3 month + or - on the date to send it in for a 4 year check. that's why the life of a cypress is 12 years, and 3 months.

later

[Mindygirl 0]

Yah, I could see that now...you wouldn't want to have a misfire....

Wow!

[petur 0]

This might be of interest:

http://www.noexcusesrigging.com/RiggerInsp/reserve_total.htm

It says:
"The rigger who packed this reserve had his Master Rigger Certificate permanently revoked."

---
P.
"It Hurts to Admit When You Make Mistakes -
But When They're Big Enough, the Pain Only Lasts a Second."

[RichM 0]

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Do you think a rigger should be held responsible for a death resulting from an obviously neglect on his part? (i.e. leaving the "molar strap" on) since he/she basically murdered the skydiver.

I do think the rigger should be held responsible. Murder if there was intention to kill. Manslaughter if it can be proven that a failed reserve deployment causing a fatality was the direct result of rigging error. Any other event the ticket should be revoked or suspended depending on the nature and severity of the incident or error.

Rich M

[kevin922 0]

I stand corrected on the legality of packing with a cypres that is expired, my bad on that comment...

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But I don't think it would be fair to punish the guy who installed the airbag if I did something really risky with my car and slammed myself into my steering wheel.

I think this analogy is a good start but is a little falwed. In order for it (in my mind) to be good is for you to stipulate that the mfg who makes the rig (i.e. mirage) also installs the reserve and also make the stipulation that airbags in cars have to go in for 4 year checks or be disabled. Now with that logic, does it make sense to disable an airbag if it hasn't had it's 4 year check? An airbag can misfire (it has happened) and can kill people (this has happened as well -- not sure if the combination of the 2 has). However are they required to have 4 year checks? no. And if they were, does it make sense to disable them until the 4 year check was done? I don't really think so. The risk of a misfire seems to me to be low compared to the chance of a save (both in the airbag and in the cypres scenerio). I'm not saying start lapsing on your 4 year, i believe having the unit checked is a good idea - however making it illegal to jump a cypres that is a few days/weeks over it's "checkup" seems crazy to me. I'd be interested in hearing how many adjustements airtec has to make to cypreses that have been sent in for the 4 year. How many things had to be fixed that could have/would have caused problems had they not been sent in.

Kevin

[RichM 0]

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It's important to remember that you leave the plane with 2 parachutes... it's YOUR responsibility to make sure the first one works.

Agreed

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If the second one opens after you fucked yourself... bonus.

Disagree. It's your riggers responsibility to ensure the second one is not prevented from opening by avoidable rigging errors.

Rich M

[councilman24 36]

Actually Rob, the response is based on level, not 1st, 2nd, or third error. see http://www.pia.com/piapubs/TS%20Documents/ts-116.pdf It's pdf so I couldn't quote it. Some level one may very well be diferences of opinion, recent changes in manuals, or different interpretations of manuals. These things are really just dicussions with the other rigger. Maybe you are wrong. Level II is bad work, possible airworthiness problems, ignoring manuals and FAR's, or repeated errors. Wider discussions necessary/recommended. Level III, some one would have likely died. Call the Fed's, etc. Do the best you can to document.

I've already included this topic in the Part Time Riggers forum at PIA.

The document refers to the need for evidence, not heresay. Do the best to protect yourself. See document for reporting form and recommendations. Also, PIA and the Rigging Committee are willing to get involved if necessary.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[PhreeZone 15]

The following is a description of the three levels.

Level I This level concerns minor rigging incidents that are not serious or life threatening. You should notify the rigger involved to explain what you have found and ask for their explanation of the problem. If a successful resolution of the problem is achieved no further action need be taken on your part. If there will be an expense to the owner of the equipment then they should be notified. They may want their equipment returned to the original rigger for corrective action.

Level 2 This level is for more serious problems that may be life threatening and include defective workmanship, disregard of the FARs (Or other Regulations) and repeat incidents. Not only should the rigger be notified, but the owner and the manufacture of the equipment should be notified for possible violations of the manufacturers instructions and/or authorizations.

Level 3 This level is reserved for the most serious and life threatening incidents. The proper authority, such as the FAA, will be notified for official action. It must be remembered that once an official report is filed with the governing authority, they are obligated to investigate, issue a report and possibly take legal action against the rigger involved. Again, this level of action is reserved for the most serious incidents that
are of a life threatening nature, show persistent recurrence of problems and/or an unrepentant attitude on the part of the rigger.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AndyMan 7]

You can quote PDF's by opening them up directly in acrobat, rather in the a browser window.

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Level I: This level concerns minor rigging incidents that are not serious or life threatening. You should
notify the rigger involved to explain what you have found and ask for their explanation of the problem. If a successful resolution of the problem is achieved no further action need be taken on your part. If there will be an expense to the owner of the equipment then they should be notified. They may want their equipment returned to the original rigger for corrective action.

Level 2: This level is for more serious problems that may be life threatening and include defective
workmanship, disregard of the FARs (Or other Regulations) and repeat incidents. Not only should the rigger be notified, but the owner and the manufacture of the equipment should be notified for possibleviolations of the manufacturers instructions and/or authorizations.

Level 3: This level is reserved for the most serious and life threatening incidents. The proper authority,
such as the FAA, will be notified for official action. It must be remembered that once an official report is
filed with the governing authority, they are obligated to investigate, issue a report and possibly take legal
action against the rigger involved. Again, this level of action is reserved for the most serious incidents thatare of a life threatening nature, show persistent recurrence of problems and/or an unrepentant attitude onthe part of the rigger.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.