howardwhite 5 #1 January 11, 2003 I talked today with my (newly minted) master rigger. He is looking for used expert Cypres units to put in student rigs. He says it is increaingly common to put expert units in student rigs. Opinions? Experience? HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #2 January 11, 2003 All of our student rigs have Experts in them. Seen one fire too... saved the student, works really nice in rental gear too.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #3 January 11, 2003 All of our Student Javelins also have Expert CYPRES installed. We also use BOC deployment. I have no issue with using the Expert vs. Student model CYPRES in these rigs.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyboyblue 0 #4 January 11, 2003 We have expert cypres on our student rigs, BOC, 2 handled systems as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #5 January 11, 2003 Quote He says it is increaingly common to put expert units in student rigs. That's a rotten reason to use expert units rather than student units specifically designed for that application..."it's increasingly common." The student Cypres offers protection at a slower speed, and would probably be the better unit to use for legal liability protection. Ask your rigger to come up with a better reason, then chat with the folks at SSK or Airtech for their thoughts.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #6 January 11, 2003 I think the reason DZs are using expert rather than student, has nothing to do with students using them and more with the fact that they also use those rigs as rentals where the jumper could be doing things under canopy that might cause it to fire. Remember when it comes to DZs $$ comes 1st in decisions.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
floormonkey 0 #7 January 12, 2003 There isn't a canopy built that can cause a Cypres to fire that should be in student gear, whether it is used as rental gear or not. I may be wrong, but I believe it is not possible to cause a cypres fire under a fully inflated main. That's why the students fire at a higher rate of speed- in case the canopy is not fully inflated and the student hasn't reacted yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #8 January 12, 2003 I know of one DZ that has a sabre 150 as a student/rental rig. I'm not willing to bet money that it couldn't be fired. Heck Derek can fire an expert under his 60.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 5 #9 January 12, 2003 Fair enough. The Cypres web sites describe the performance differences between expert and student. But how does one infer when a student should "graduate" to an expert? Is it canopy size? Number of jumps? License? What is the Ranch policy on this? HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
floormonkey 0 #10 January 12, 2003 a cut and paste from SSK's website http://www.pia.com/SSK/cypres/cyp17.htm The following is from a September 1993 response to a letter in Parachutist Magazine. Additional information concerning CRW and CYPRES is also provided to help CYPRES Owners and Riggers understand more about some of the specifics involved, and is based on typical questions that have been received by us. As far as the concerns raised in the May 1993 issue of Parachutist about Canopy Relative Work and AAD compatibility, realize that most of the prior and existing AAD technology has been around for years before CRW became mainstream. The CYPRES AAD addresses this aspect of our sport, and is compatible with CRW. Specifically, in the case of the Expert CYPRES, it would activate under canopy when the vertical velocity (regardless of the horizontal component) equals or exceeds 35 meters / second (115 feet / sec., 78 MPH) at about 1000 feet AGL. (The activation altitude while in freefall is 750 feet.) However, velocities of this magnitude are virtually impossible to obtain under any sort of partially deployed, open, or even malfunctioned main canopy. Airtec chose this particular activation velocity in part so that the Expert CYPRES would activate at typical pilotchute-in-tow speeds. However, if somehow one found himself in such a canopy wrap, traveling at such a velocity through 1000 feet AGL (8.7 seconds or less from impact), an AAD could possibly help. In addition: The TANDEM CYPRES has the same identical activation velocity with a higher activation altitude. (No, this does not mean that it is prudent to do Tandem down planes!) The STUDENT CYPRES is designed to activate in a partial malfunction situation. If a student jumper with a malfunctioned main passes through about 1000 feet AGL at 13 meters / second (43 feet / sec., 29 MPH) it will activate. (If the student is near terminal velocity, it will wait until about 750 feet.) Therefore, when doing CRW with a Student CYPRES, breakoff should always be completed above 1500 ft. There is at least one CYPRES / CRW save to date: July 1994, Raeford, North Carolina - Expert CYPRES: Two members of an experienced CRW team were involved in a CRW wrap at about 6000 ft. The entangled jumper cut away from his main and then observed the other jumper cutting suspension lines to free him. When he fell away, convinced that he now had neither a main nor reserve, he tracked towards a small lake. CYPRES then activated his previously unopened reserve. One of the original important design criteria of the Expert CYPRES was to be compatible with all forms of Skydiving. This includes Freefall Relative Work, Style, Accuracy, Free Style, Demos, Sky Surfing, and Canopy Relative Work. SSK Industries is the U.S. CYPRES Service Representative. *** of course, canopies have come a long way since '93. It is probably more probable now then when this was written, but not on anything in a student rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 5 #11 January 12, 2003 Quoteof course, canopies have come a long way since '93. It is probably more probable now then when this was written, but not on anything in a student rig. Sorry, what does this mean? HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
floormonkey 0 #12 January 12, 2003 Sorry it wasn't clear. It seems the canopy technology has advanced as well as the quality of pilots. It seems as if it would be more probable now(of a fully inflated main causing a cypres fire) then it was at the time the article was written. Of course, I can only speak from secondhand knowledge since I have not been in the sport that long. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lippy 787 #13 January 12, 2003 QuoteThere is at least one CYPRES / CRW save to date: July 1994, Raeford, North Carolina - Expert CYPRES: Two members of an experienced CRW team were involved in a CRW wrap at about 6000 ft. The entangled jumper cut away from his main and then observed the other jumper cutting suspension lines to free him. When he fell away, convinced that he now had neither a main nor reserve, he tracked towards a small lake. CYPRES then activated his previously unopened reserve.[/reply ] That's nutty. 'Oh shit, I'm out of canopies, better head for the lake'. He must have been suprised when his Cypres firedI got nuthin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tombuch 0 #14 January 12, 2003 QuoteFair enough. The Cypres web sites describe the performance differences between expert and student. But how does one infer when a student should "graduate" to an expert? Is it canopy size? Number of jumps? License? What is the Ranch policy on this? HW The Ranch uses the student Cypres for all student jumps, and all jumps using our student equipment. We give our graduates the options to use a Cypres on their own rigs if they like. I've never encountered a graduate using the student Cypres with his/her own rig.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflyerno 0 #15 January 12, 2003 QuoteThere isn't a canopy built that can cause a Cypres to fire that should be in student gear, whether it is used as rental gear or not. You haven't been to some of the more progressive dropzones around then. Some actually allow students to jump lightly loaded Stilettos if they show very good canopy control. I wouldn't trust them not to reach the vertical velocity needed for the Student CYPRES. QuoteI may be wrong, but I believe it is not possible to cause a cypres fire under a fully inflated main. Are you talking about the Student CYPRES or the Expert CYPRES? Big difference in the two. QuoteThat's why the students fire at a higher rate of speed- in case the canopy is not fully inflated and the student hasn't reacted yet. You ofcourse mean "lower rate of speed", right?--- Unanswered questions are far less dangerous than unquestioned answers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #16 January 12, 2003 QuoteI talked today with my (newly minted) master rigger. He is looking for used expert Cypres units to put in student rigs. He says it is increaingly common to put expert units in student rigs. Opinions? Experience? HW From a highly experienced AFF I/E, when this question was raised: "It takes little for an attorney to 'uncover' the ID of an AAD when an injury happens (to a student). It doesn't matter if a Cypres is involved in the injury or not. If the investigation (footed by the injured party's family) discloses that an "Expert Cypres" is installed on the student's equipment instead of a "Student Cypres", then (in their opinion) what -else- would be inaccurate in the questioned DZ's policies and procedures?" Not even our waivers would protect us. Food for thought. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cpoxon 0 #17 January 12, 2003 This may be out of date now, but it's the most recent info I can find online, but according to Item 9. c) Quote...Airtec’s policy with regard to the fitting of CYPRES Student/Expert AADs on Student parachute equipment, which is; ‘that they strongly recommend that all students under direct supervision of instructors, such as static line students and AFF students jumping with instructors have equipment fitted with the Student CYPRES and not the Expert CYPRES’. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites howardwhite 5 #18 January 12, 2003 Thanks, Craig. But the document to which you refer goes on to say: "At this time the BPA does not have any requirements to say whether or not it is permissible for an Expert CYPRES to be fitted to Student equipment. Some BPA Clubs do have Student equipment fitted with the Expert CYPRES. They have them fitted because the CCIs of those Clubs believe them to be safer for their particular operation." HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 562 #19 January 12, 2003 It is a question of dollars. If a DZO is forced to chose between equiping all his student gear with 11-year-old Expert Cypri or equiping a few with (rarer and more expensive) Student Cypri, the choice is obvious. For example, at Pitt Meadows, we have FXC 12000 AADs and Manta 290 canopies installed in rigs used by first jump students. After they have demonstrated decent canopy control (after a minimum 6 jumps) they transition to rigs containing FXC 12000s and Skymaster 230 canopies. After more instruction and more good landings, they transition to rigs containing Expert Cypri and Hornet 190s. The Hornet 190s are also rented out to visiting jumpers. The main reason we use FXC AADs is because we have had them forever, along with an expensive FXC test chamber. Until recently, used FXCs were far less expensive than Cypri. Cypres prices have only gone down as older units approach the end of their 12 year life span. Scum-sucking lawyers may berate you about the choice of Expert vs. Student Cypres, while they completely ignore the Expert Cypres vs. no AAD dilemma that rages through every DZOs head. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites howardwhite 5 #20 January 12, 2003 Quote FXC 12000 AADs and Manta 290 canopies installed in rigs used by first jump students. Same at this club, except that smaller canopies are available for lighter students. The Cypri would replace FXCs, which are expensive to maintain because we don't have the chamber. Another local DZ uses Skymaster 260s (and occasionally 230s) for even AF FJCs. Quote Scum-sucking lawyers You have them in Canada tooHW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JeffGordon 0 #21 January 13, 2003 That is not true. Listo who posts here has fired a student CYPRES under a student canopy, just from doing toggle turns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Craig 0 #22 January 13, 2003 QuoteThat is not true. Listo who posts here has fired a student CYPRES under a student canopy, just from doing toggle turns. From the manual: Quote2.2 Student CYPRES The Student CYPRES can be recognized by the yellow button with the imprint "Student" on the control unit. It will activate the EOS when the rate of descent exceeds 29mph (13m/sec). The activation altitude is split. In the case of rate of descent being equal to that of freefall the opening altitude is at approx. 750 feet, being the same as with Expert CYPRES. However, should the rate of descent be lower than that of freefall but still above the limit of 29mph (e.g. with partially opened canopy), then Student CYPRES activates the EOS when the altitude decreases below 1000 feet above ground level. The student will then have some more time to prepare for landing. If a jump plane is descending without having dropped, switch the Student CYPRES off! Be aware that it is possible to exceed a vertical speed of 29 mph under a fully inflated canopy! Unlike the Expert CYPRES models, we recommend that the Student CYPRES be switched off in the aircraft prior to descent if the jump is aborted and the student will land with the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,470 #23 January 13, 2003 >He is looking for used expert Cypres units to put in student rigs. That's what we do. Our philosophy is that the cypres is for no-pull or fast mal incidents only. If you're under a partial mal, are you better off leaving the student alone to (possibly) do the right thing, or are you better off giving him a two-canopy-out condition? A tough call, but I'd lean towards leaving it in the student's hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites howardwhite 5 #24 January 13, 2003 It seems that the main objection here has been about liability. Did you folks discuss/get advice about this? HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,470 #25 January 13, 2003 >It seems that the main objection here has been about liability. Did > you folks discuss/get advice about this? I don't think so; it was a long time ago. Buzz would remember. In any case, I think the first line of defense against liability problems is not having accidents to begin with, so I think the functionality argument would be the main one. Liability is a good question though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
tombuch 0 #14 January 12, 2003 QuoteFair enough. The Cypres web sites describe the performance differences between expert and student. But how does one infer when a student should "graduate" to an expert? Is it canopy size? Number of jumps? License? What is the Ranch policy on this? HW The Ranch uses the student Cypres for all student jumps, and all jumps using our student equipment. We give our graduates the options to use a Cypres on their own rigs if they like. I've never encountered a graduate using the student Cypres with his/her own rig.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyerno 0 #15 January 12, 2003 QuoteThere isn't a canopy built that can cause a Cypres to fire that should be in student gear, whether it is used as rental gear or not. You haven't been to some of the more progressive dropzones around then. Some actually allow students to jump lightly loaded Stilettos if they show very good canopy control. I wouldn't trust them not to reach the vertical velocity needed for the Student CYPRES. QuoteI may be wrong, but I believe it is not possible to cause a cypres fire under a fully inflated main. Are you talking about the Student CYPRES or the Expert CYPRES? Big difference in the two. QuoteThat's why the students fire at a higher rate of speed- in case the canopy is not fully inflated and the student hasn't reacted yet. You ofcourse mean "lower rate of speed", right?--- Unanswered questions are far less dangerous than unquestioned answers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #16 January 12, 2003 QuoteI talked today with my (newly minted) master rigger. He is looking for used expert Cypres units to put in student rigs. He says it is increaingly common to put expert units in student rigs. Opinions? Experience? HW From a highly experienced AFF I/E, when this question was raised: "It takes little for an attorney to 'uncover' the ID of an AAD when an injury happens (to a student). It doesn't matter if a Cypres is involved in the injury or not. If the investigation (footed by the injured party's family) discloses that an "Expert Cypres" is installed on the student's equipment instead of a "Student Cypres", then (in their opinion) what -else- would be inaccurate in the questioned DZ's policies and procedures?" Not even our waivers would protect us. Food for thought. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #17 January 12, 2003 This may be out of date now, but it's the most recent info I can find online, but according to Item 9. c) Quote...Airtec’s policy with regard to the fitting of CYPRES Student/Expert AADs on Student parachute equipment, which is; ‘that they strongly recommend that all students under direct supervision of instructors, such as static line students and AFF students jumping with instructors have equipment fitted with the Student CYPRES and not the Expert CYPRES’. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 5 #18 January 12, 2003 Thanks, Craig. But the document to which you refer goes on to say: "At this time the BPA does not have any requirements to say whether or not it is permissible for an Expert CYPRES to be fitted to Student equipment. Some BPA Clubs do have Student equipment fitted with the Expert CYPRES. They have them fitted because the CCIs of those Clubs believe them to be safer for their particular operation." HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 562 #19 January 12, 2003 It is a question of dollars. If a DZO is forced to chose between equiping all his student gear with 11-year-old Expert Cypri or equiping a few with (rarer and more expensive) Student Cypri, the choice is obvious. For example, at Pitt Meadows, we have FXC 12000 AADs and Manta 290 canopies installed in rigs used by first jump students. After they have demonstrated decent canopy control (after a minimum 6 jumps) they transition to rigs containing FXC 12000s and Skymaster 230 canopies. After more instruction and more good landings, they transition to rigs containing Expert Cypri and Hornet 190s. The Hornet 190s are also rented out to visiting jumpers. The main reason we use FXC AADs is because we have had them forever, along with an expensive FXC test chamber. Until recently, used FXCs were far less expensive than Cypri. Cypres prices have only gone down as older units approach the end of their 12 year life span. Scum-sucking lawyers may berate you about the choice of Expert vs. Student Cypres, while they completely ignore the Expert Cypres vs. no AAD dilemma that rages through every DZOs head. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 5 #20 January 12, 2003 Quote FXC 12000 AADs and Manta 290 canopies installed in rigs used by first jump students. Same at this club, except that smaller canopies are available for lighter students. The Cypri would replace FXCs, which are expensive to maintain because we don't have the chamber. Another local DZ uses Skymaster 260s (and occasionally 230s) for even AF FJCs. Quote Scum-sucking lawyers You have them in Canada tooHW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffGordon 0 #21 January 13, 2003 That is not true. Listo who posts here has fired a student CYPRES under a student canopy, just from doing toggle turns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Craig 0 #22 January 13, 2003 QuoteThat is not true. Listo who posts here has fired a student CYPRES under a student canopy, just from doing toggle turns. From the manual: Quote2.2 Student CYPRES The Student CYPRES can be recognized by the yellow button with the imprint "Student" on the control unit. It will activate the EOS when the rate of descent exceeds 29mph (13m/sec). The activation altitude is split. In the case of rate of descent being equal to that of freefall the opening altitude is at approx. 750 feet, being the same as with Expert CYPRES. However, should the rate of descent be lower than that of freefall but still above the limit of 29mph (e.g. with partially opened canopy), then Student CYPRES activates the EOS when the altitude decreases below 1000 feet above ground level. The student will then have some more time to prepare for landing. If a jump plane is descending without having dropped, switch the Student CYPRES off! Be aware that it is possible to exceed a vertical speed of 29 mph under a fully inflated canopy! Unlike the Expert CYPRES models, we recommend that the Student CYPRES be switched off in the aircraft prior to descent if the jump is aborted and the student will land with the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,470 #23 January 13, 2003 >He is looking for used expert Cypres units to put in student rigs. That's what we do. Our philosophy is that the cypres is for no-pull or fast mal incidents only. If you're under a partial mal, are you better off leaving the student alone to (possibly) do the right thing, or are you better off giving him a two-canopy-out condition? A tough call, but I'd lean towards leaving it in the student's hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 5 #24 January 13, 2003 It seems that the main objection here has been about liability. Did you folks discuss/get advice about this? HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,470 #25 January 13, 2003 >It seems that the main objection here has been about liability. Did > you folks discuss/get advice about this? I don't think so; it was a long time ago. Buzz would remember. In any case, I think the first line of defense against liability problems is not having accidents to begin with, so I think the functionality argument would be the main one. Liability is a good question though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
