Learning to fly a semi elliptical

[Deisel 37]

I have just downsized to a Sabre 210. This is after learning with a Navigator 260, 240, & 220. I was given a decent class on the different flight characteristics and some of what to expect and how to deal with it. But I find that it flies much farther on final than any of the Navigators ever did. I set up my pattern at about the same altitude each time but ended up twice as far away from my target. The canopy seems to keep flying and not want to come down. Now I've started coming slowly to half brakes on final, and this puts me down much closer to where I'm aiming to land.
Any advice, tips, or suggestions out there on how to fly (instead of being flown by) this thing?
Also, my exit weight is around 200lbs which if I'm doing this right, makes my wing load .95-1.

Big D

[Booster_MPS 0]

As always, work with your instructors but the following helped me.

I fly a Sabre 2 - 210 at 1.08 loading and my accuracy has increased as I work on learning to fly my risers. As I set up to fly my pattern, I envision the pattern as it would look painted on the ground with down wind and final parallel to the wind line. While looking around for traffic, I keep my eye on the target while flying to the target which is key. If you are going to be long, do not be afraid to fly double front risers to bleed some altitude in the pattern. It wont be easy to hold them down on a 210 so you will have to let up.

Careful with your recovery arc below 300 and practice up high. Get a feel for what a LOT of double front feels like and does as well as a quick pump of the double fronts. Good luck.

[skybytch 259]

I think it's far better to improve your accuracy by adjusting your pattern than by using brakes or front risers on final.

Keep the altitudes the same but move locations. Assuming constant wind conditions, if you're went long on your target on your last jump, move where you turn onto base that much farther downwind on your next jump.

[marks 0]

it is all about the setup. adjust your pattern.

[jakee 1,257]

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But I find that it flies much farther on final than any of the Navigators ever did. I set up my pattern at about the same altitude each time but ended up twice as far away from my target.

Then change your pattern and set up further back.

Regularly flaring from half brakes is not a good habit to get into.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Peej 0]

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I think it's far better to improve your accuracy by adjusting your pattern than by using brakes or front risers on final.

Keep the altitudes the same but move locations. Assuming constant wind conditions, if you're went long on your target on your last jump, move where you turn onto base that much farther downwind on your next jump.

Exactly. Flying a good, consistent pattern is the key to every landing. This is what you wanna do

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[Deisel 37]

Can anyone elaborate on the differences between the rectangle & semi elliptical chutes? Under the Navigatiors I could do a 360. But under the Sabre 2 I can do no shit spirals, turn exactly where I want to, and get a really strong flare.

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[yardhippie 0]

I'll elaborate a bit on Marks reply, and truthfully, I dont know that I fully understood this until recently.

If you have a given landing point your shooting for, and your goal is repitition. then you say your long on final. What would be the ways to land in your "spot" under your new wing? By adjusting your pattern. Here are some ways you can adjust.

1) create a longer final
This could work on small dropzones, but in others you could run into confilicts with a stricter pattern.
Such as flying a final through the base leg of other canopies.
2) adjust the altitude at which you turn to final. In your case, just a few feet. Then if you are flying a conventional (right or left) pattern then you adjust down your altitude to turn on your base leg, and your entry to your downwind leg altitude. Do this in small increments, and you'll be right on your spot in no time.
3) S-turns and holding in brakes on final. While these skills are basic and should be in everyone's skill sets, they are often times frowned upon at larger DZs if you have traffic behind you. Because they are not consistant with a pattern it makes you and obstical to others in the sky. Please use caution when performing these maneuvers in traffic.


Most of all, consult the locals who are watching you land. Visual inspection of one's technique and set up is a much better evaluator than a few sentences over the internet.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I'll elaborate a bit on Marks reply, and truthfully, I dont know that I fully understood this until recently.

If you have a given landing point your shooting for, and your goal is repitition. then you say your long on final. What would be the ways to land in your "spot" under your new wing? By adjusting your pattern. Here are some ways you can adjust.

1) create a longer final
This could work on small dropzones, but in others you could run into confilicts with a stricter pattern.
Such as flying a final through the base leg of other canopies.
2) adjust the altitude at which you turn to final. In your case, just a few feet. Then if you are flying a conventional (right or left) pattern then you adjust down your altitude to turn on your base leg, and your entry to your downwind leg altitude. Do this in small increments, and you'll be right on your spot in no time.
3) S-turns and holding in brakes on final. While these skills are basic and should be in everyone's skill sets, they are often times frowned upon at larger DZs if you have traffic behind you. Because they are not consistant with a pattern it makes you and obstical to others in the sky. Please use caution when performing these maneuvers in traffic.


Most of all, consult the locals who are watching you land. Visual inspection of one's technique and set up is a much better evaluator than a few sentences over the internet.

Ideally, if the pilot has a good pattern, they'd simply imagine it on a piece of glass and then slide it so that their touchdown point is where they want to to be. The pattern itself, and the altitudes, would not change.

Now if the pilot is still developing the pattern it's slightly more complicated but the basic principals stay the same - just the points over the ground, in relation to the target, for that day will differ but the pilot may be a lot more 'rough' in approaching their final.

Regarding point 3. Typically, in most conditions 7-8 mph or less for a headwind - holding in brakes will typically make the pilot land even FURTHER past their target (especially no wind days). Additionally, if the pilot S-turns they will never really learn the glide slope of the canopy and how much ground they will cover - which in turn will prevent them from actually fixing the pattern points.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[bob.dino 0]

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Can anyone elaborate on the differences between the rectangle & semi elliptical chutes? Under the Navigatiors I could do a 360. But under the Sabre 2 I can do no shit spirals, turn exactly where I want to, and get a really strong flare.

Generalizing horribly: rectangular parachutes will turn slower for a given amount of toggle input than mildly tapered ("semi-elliptical") parachutes.

The planform of a canopy is what a canopy looks like if you look at it from directly above. We have common terms for different configurations - square, semi-elliptical, and elliptical. To make things fun, none of those descriptions is technically accurate . A square parachute is actually rectangular, and semi- and fully-ellipitcal parachutes are actually tapered. Terminology aside, the planform of a canopy is only one aspect of many in determining how a parachute performs.

For example, the differences you're experiencing between the Navigator and the Sabre2 are down to more than just the planform. The Navigator is designed for students - it's supposed to be docile, forgiving, and hard to hurt yourself on. The Sabre2 is designed for sports jumpers, so it's more responsive and a little less forgiving. Many factors, including line length, airfoil shape, line trim, and more influence this. Parachute design is as much art as it is science.

If you want to know more about how & why parachutes fly, and how to fly them better, I'd highly recommend picking up a copy of Brian Germain's book The Parachute and Its Pilot. It's available from most skydiving stores, and from http://www.bigairsportz.com.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Can anyone elaborate on the differences between the rectangle & semi elliptical chutes? Under the Navigatiors I could do a 360. But under the Sabre 2 I can do no shit spirals, turn exactly where I want to, and get a really strong flare.

First of all both are semi elliptical.
Look at Aerodyne Research. Where Pilot(ZP) ends on big sizes Solo(Hybrid) starts.

There are elliptical canopies with really wide range of use. E.g. Firebold from JumpShack:

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The FireBolt is absolutely new technology, and really can't be compared directly to any other. When lightly loaded (.5 or .6 pounds per sq. ft.), it can be a beginner canopy. When heavily loaded (2.3 pounds per sq. ft. to 1.7 pounds per sq. ft.) it is a high performance canopy that will easily out swoop a Stiletto or other semi-elliptical canopy. When loaded from .85 pounds per square foot to 1.6 or so, it is a great all-around canopy, capable of slow flight with lots of stability and great toggling range. It was created in 3-D, so the dimensions of the skins and lines lengths are extremely accurate, and the characteristics were completely predictable. So when you ask "what can it be compared to?" the answer is: Triathlon when lightly loaded, Stiletto/Spectre/Icarus Crossfire when loaded "mid weight", and Icarus Extreme/Velocity when heavily loaded. Yes, it's really that versatile!

Or Cobalt from Atair:

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What's the recommended wing loading on a Cobalt?

The Cobalt canopy is an extremely efficient wing. It has the highest measured glide ratio of any skydiving canopy. The extra lift makes for a canopy that flies 'bigger'. To get equal forward speed when comparing to many other canopies you need to load the Cobalt heavier, i.e. 1#/’ on a Sabre should be compared to 1.2#/’ on a cobalt.

1.2-1.4 beginners
1.4-1.6 intermediate
1.6-1.8 high
1.8-2.2 pro
2.2-2.8 extreme
max tested landed wingload 3.6#

I'd rather focus less on marketing term and try and fly as many canopy as I can.

[Snowflake 0]

What you need to do is Spot from your opening and see if your gonna be short or long. For this example we'll say that your long. You open and spot and see that your long(note don't spot where you want to land spot behind it a bit. That takes a little practice). Next you spiral a couple of 360's then check your spot again. If your a little short than brakes, if long than some more 360/360's or s turns. Then again check your spot. At this point if your spot is on you go into normal final pattern.

The point is that once you have gotten in the habit of checking your spot along the flight path. The better your accuracy should get. After a while you won't even notice that your doing it.

[tbrown 26]

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I think it's far better to improve your accuracy by adjusting your pattern than by using brakes or front risers on final.

Keep the altitudes the same but move locations. Assuming constant wind conditions, if you're went long on your target on your last jump, move where you turn onto base that much farther downwind on your next jump.

Absolutely. However, if you're lined up on final and still overshooting, using your fronts can fix things without enraging any traffic behind you. F'rinstance, my Pilot has an almost eternal glide path in no winds. At Perris I can overshoot and end up on the tarmac where lots of airplanes are parked, something I don't want to do. So pulling down on my fronts changes the picture dramatically, the landing zone that had been passing beneath me is now rising up in front of me. And anyone behind me is just seeing me drop down and picking up speed, I'm not backing up or rising up, or zigzagging in their way, sparing their vocal chords much use of the "f" word. You do have to be careful though, as your speed and descent rates are much higher, so only use the fronts sparingly until you're much more familiar with your canopy's recovery arc.

A final hint on going to fronts is that if you momentarily go to half brakes with your toggles, you will find it WAY easier to pull down your fronts.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !