Spizzzarko 0 #26 November 30, 2006 Your welcome. I believe that good technique and body position will beat HMA hands down any day of the week. I quite sure those of us with hma could have spent the money on jump tickets and gotten better results , but HMA or Technora is nice. I also feel that the next big thing will be a revision of body position during the turn and in the actuall swoop. Look at the pictures of Lord Slaton, Tagle, Nick, and Moledski. They all are changing their body position through out the swoop. I have attached a few pictures to demonstate this. Most of them are leaning way forward in their harness after they get the canopy to climb from the slingshot. I bet there is something to this. Jim even told me that they got some body position perfected at the ground launch place that will help out. We are probably at the limit of the gear, as I do not forsee many new innovations on the gear that we have unless a company steps up and releases the "Z"braced design, so it is technique that needs to be honed now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #27 November 30, 2006 In addition to body position facial hair and prom tuxedo's help out too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #28 November 30, 2006 Morris, Resend the email...I do not see it anywhere. Also, The material we use here is all round in shape. Both HMA and Vectran, so shape changes are not in effect here. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swooper81 0 #29 December 1, 2006 QuoteI also feel that the next big thing will be a revision of body position during the turn and in the actuall swoop. Look at the pictures of Lord Slaton, Tagle, Nick, and Moledski. They all are changing their body position through out the swoop. I have attached a few pictures to demonstate this. Most of them are leaning way forward in their harness after they get the canopy to climb from the slingshot. I bet there is something to this. Jim even told me that they got some body position perfected at the ground launch place that will help out. We are probably at the limit of the gear, as I do not forsee many new innovations on the gear that we have unless a company steps up and releases the "Z"braced design, so it is technique that needs to be honed now. what are your thoughts on it? Why do you think this is a better position? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #30 December 1, 2006 Quotewhat are your thoughts on it? Why do you think this is a better position? I've got a drill I like doing with people that if you go play with it, you'll learn LOT along those lines. Get fully on level with someone on a similar wing. You really should have the slack taken out of your brake lines, but otherwise be in full flight. (Fully on level means horizontally on level and vertically on level with about 20ft seperation, side by side). You start in your neutral body postition for flying your canopy. However you're most comfortable. Now, "get small" and try to get in a body position that has the less amount of drag. Do whatever you think you should do with your body position to speed up. Ball up, lean foward, etc. It'll take a couple of seconds then you'll move forward from your base. Once you've moved 20ft infront, go back to neutral. Once you go back to neutral, wait a beat and then get BIG and slow down. Move to the position that is on level but 20ft behind your base. Now speed back up and get back fully level. Once you do that then you can play with horizontal boxes. You get fully level, then go forward, sideslide your canopy to the other side of your base, then back and sidelide behind. Then move back to fully level. You learn a lot about body position with your canopy doing that drill.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #31 December 1, 2006 I know it has been hotly debated here before, but I think that changing position under the wing will change it's pitch some how. If you look at Nick's 665' swoop video, he slingshots and when the canopy is about done climbing on it's own he starts to aggressively lean forward in the harness and then goes to toggles. I think the leaning forward prevents the canopy from descending at that moment in the swoop and he is able to get that much more out of his toggles. Remember, the longest swoop is a function of having the most speed through the gates combined with being the most efficient (not introducing any extranious drag) in your flare. If these dudes are able to get the canopy to pitch up without giving toggle or rear riser input then they are able to go that much further in their swoop. Now I also think body position in the turn has quite a bit to do with the overall result too. !CAUTION ADVANCED TECHNIQUE DISCUSSION EMMANENT DO NOT DO THIS THINK ABOUT THIS, CONSIDER THIS, OR OTHERWISE FANTASIZE ABOUT COMPREHENDING THIS UNLESS YOU HAVE COMPETENT INSTRUCTION, AND 5 BILLION JUMPS. IN ADDITION, DO NOT SUE ME IF YOU FUCK YOURSELF UP BY THINKING, CONSIDERING, OR FANTASIZING ABOUT THE FOLLOWING! I feel that in the turn if you are big with your body you will have more drag and it will prevent your from moving forward under the canopy. This helps you three fold. 1. Not moving forward under the canopy keeps the canopy in the dive longer. 2. The longer the canopy is in the dive the more speed you build. 3. Having your body extended moves your center of suspended weight further way from the canopy. This means your mass has further to travel so it creates more power. Now, we should not keep our bodies fully extende through out the swoop, because we will soon enter a point in the swoop where we want to eliminate as much drag as possible. It is my hypothesis that you should be tucking up into a tight ball (bring your knees to your chest) as you are slingshotting yourself through the gates. I think this will help the sling shot effect because you will have to give less input on the rears to get the same desired effect from the sling shot. Why is this? Think about it, you are tucking up, and now bringing your weight closer to the canopy. Now you do not have to pendulum as far (this makes the pendulum effect faster so you can carry more speed into the climb out) and you can create less drag causing the pendulum. From this point on no matter what you do the canopy is slowing down and you have a finite amount of energy to use before you run out and it quits flying. It then becomes an exercise of being as efficient as possible and creating as little drag as you need to fly to your point of impact. Let's talk a little about sight picture in your swoop now. I feel that very few of us actually pick a point and do everything we can to fly towards it like classic accuracy competitors do. Well swooping is very similar to classic acc,but instead of coming straight down like in classic acc we are flying straight forward. Maybe if after you pendulum and your canopy is no longer climbing, you pick a point down the lane to swoop at and focus on this point you can fly more effeciently. To do this you can focus on this point as you continue to flare, and if that point is going lower in your sight picture then you are going to overfly it. Corrective action for this would be to either choose a new focal point or give less input allowing the canopy to sink more. Conversly if the focal point is getting higher in your sight picture then you are going to undershoot and you may want to add more lift with a control input so that you fly as close to that point as possible. The classic acc competitors use this technique to see if they can make it to there target. Eventually you will learn the angle that you need to be choosing your focal point as you learn more and more about your canopy's flight characterists, and as you become more consistant with your power management through the gates. No matter what turn you are doing or even if you are swooping try to keep every aspect of your landing the same, from the pattern that you fly, the amount of turn to final that you do, to the turn rate and entry altitude. The more you keep things the same the more variables you take out of the equation, and the more you can focus on one aspect or another of your swoop. !THIS ENDS MY DIATRIBE OF BODY POSITION FOR THIS POST. REMEMBER, ONLY YOU CAN PREVENT YOURSLEF FROM FLYING INTO THE EARTH AT A HIGH RATE OF SPEED. DO NOT FUCK UP, AND DO NOT RELY ON MY HYPOTHESIS' TO GET YOU INO THE PST AS iM AM NOT A PST COMPETITOR. THAT IS ALL! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #32 December 1, 2006 Mel, Is there any way to get a tear drop shaped line? You and I both know that a tear drop shape has about 40% less drag than a round shape. If the line was able to keep laminar flow attached then drag reduction would be phenominal! Even if it were a fatter line but shaped it could possibly create less drag than a thinner round line. Things that make you go hmmmmm. BTW are you and Joe planning on coming back out to Co this year? Ryan and I would enjoy having another fat bastard heart attack pizza and some beers again. Grant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #33 December 1, 2006 *** Is there any way to get a tear drop shaped line? You and I both know that a tear drop shape has about 40% less drag than a round shape. If the line was able to keep laminar flow attached then drag reduction would be phenominal! Quote Grant, Probably not unless you used a molded line. You would also still have the problem of proper orientation. Over the length of line the thing would rotate away from the desired direction. We plan on coming out there a couple of times next year. Get the "loudner" ready. BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites morris 0 #34 December 1, 2006 spizzzarko, teardropshaped lines have been tested on paragliders in Europe (they used kind of a tape to make em shaped like that) and it didn`t work! It`s not like a falling raindrop where you just have gravity, the relative wind and nothing else. the wind isn´t coming always from the same direction (turn, dive, whatever) and any "second row line" is in the turbulences of the line(s) in front. Therefore the line(s) start moving, and once it has started, it`s not gonna stop again,... once again - round is better - not in general but for lines on a chute... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites headoverheels 292 #35 December 1, 2006 QuoteJust got my new lineset in the mail and it's 675, according to their website. I was expecting 500, should have asked before ordering I'm getting my Katana 107 relined with 675. The drag difference will not make a difference to me, but the lifetime might. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites morris 0 #36 December 3, 2006 Is there anyone outthere who has experience with HMA 280lb? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites morris 0 #37 December 6, 2006 Sorry guys, I might have been wrong with my statement "the perfect line is for sure a round one", cause if you take two HMA 500 lines (for example) one round and one shaped like an ellipse (for example), the ellipse one is going to be thinner (at least from the "airflow point of view"). That means, that even if its drag coefficient might be higher (and it`s only higher if the line vibrates, otherwise drag coefficient is even lower) the resulting overall drag is less... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beezyshaw 0 #38 December 6, 2006 QuoteIs there anyone outthere who has experience with HMA 280lb? Yes, it's been tested, but when you get any smaller than the braid of the 160 kg (ie 350 lb) line (widely in use on the Nitro for many years), you run into two problems. One, it gets darn hard to put a good stitch in anything smaller, and two, the strength and logevity become so compromised it doesn't seem to me to be practical to use. Not to say that things can't change in the future, but remember, your canopy is more than your swoop vehicle - it is first and foremost a life saving device. If you start snapping lines and riding reserves left and right, how much benefit is there to that, regardless of the amount of reduced drag? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites morris 0 #39 December 6, 2006 Thanks for the information, it matches with "PD-Opinion", they put 300s only on by themselves/at the factory due to the difficulty of bartacking those lines... I just received 500s from them (not round, "ellipse-style") very nice, about half the seize of vectran 500s.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites alterego84 0 #40 December 6, 2006 i know of some testing that was done using very small HMA (can't remember but think it was around the 150#) and after 30 or so jumps the line would snap in a front riser turn and not always at the bartac, but in random places on the line. obviously the testers weren't landing this, but they did test it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #41 December 7, 2006 Quotei know of some testing that was done using very small HMA (can't remember but think it was around the 150#) and after 30 or so jumps the line would snap in a front riser turn and not always at the bartac, but in random places on the line. obviously the testers weren't landing this, but they did test it. it breaks at the shoulder. where the fingertrap ends. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Spizzzarko 0 #42 December 7, 2006 It seems as if we have hit a point of diminishing returns once you go smaller than 350 HMA. Like I have said earlier, I think that propper technique will far outswoop 150lbs hma. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cacophony 0 #43 December 7, 2006 They only give you one rejump so you better have strong enough lines to last a comp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beezyshaw 0 #44 December 7, 2006 Quoteit breaks at the shoulder. where the fingertrap ends. Sometimes that's true, Mark, but often it's not. When Lee broke 4 lines on his canopy a few months back, it was the center A's and B's and the breaks were about 2 feet below the canopy. They did snap in about the same place, but not as you say. Another place they break is at the loops at the connector links. As these areas wear from contact with the links, this is easily explained. When you pull test lines to failure, a finger trap shoulder or a knot placed in the line will be the failure point, but in actual use I've seen several exceptions. Also, one "slight" disadvantage to softlinks is that the fabric-to-fabric contact with the suspension lines will cause more wear than smooth stainless links will. It isn't generally enough of an issue to go back to metal, but it does wear the lines (specifically Vectran, Dacron, and HMA). Spectra lines on spectra softlinks don't seem to show signs of this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #45 December 8, 2006 QuoteSometimes that's true, Mark, but often it's not. When Lee broke 4 lines on his canopy a few months back, it was the center A's and B's and the breaks were about 2 feet below the canopy. I thought that it was decided that it broke like that due to a possible tension knot...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites grue 1 #46 December 12, 2006 QuoteQuotei know of some testing that was done using very small HMA (can't remember but think it was around the 150#) and after 30 or so jumps the line would snap in a front riser turn and not always at the bartac, but in random places on the line. obviously the testers weren't landing this, but they did test it. it breaks at the shoulder. where the fingertrap ends. I've only broken an HMA line once, and it sure wasn't 150#, but here's where it let go: http://spiceweasel.net/skydivingstuff/kaboom3.jpgcavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LoudDan 0 #47 December 12, 2006 Same thing goes for when Hans broke the HMA's on my canopy, wasn't at the finger trap. Regardless, I like Mel's stuff.......even if you have to bail out after a shitty turn, you still sound fast. Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites icevideot 0 #48 December 18, 2006 QuoteI have both kinds of HMA. PD's and Mel's but the latter IMHO is much better; Mel's is thinner, almos hals the size. I just wanted to say Mel has the thin stuff (and I mean that stuff is thin!) and he also has some that is slightly thinner than Spectra but slightly thicker than the PD 500. I believe it is 650. I just got it put on my Stiletto 89 because it was opening too hard for my camera jumps. Now it opens almost like a Crossfire and feels a tiny bit faster. I have on;y put 6 jumps on the new lines so far but I want to encourage anyone with line questions to contact Mel. I had no idea how little I knew about line materials and how fast improvements were being made. Mel only tried to educate me so I could make an informed decision and never tried to steer me on a particular course. He just wants you to be happy with your choice. I know I am."... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #49 December 18, 2006 Hans's canopy and his body size must be to much for those line's. he has broken many. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #50 December 18, 2006 Mark, Actually he broke the first set after many more jumps than I asked him to put on them. That set of lines was the very first run of Technora that CSR made for me. In fact it was the first run they had made for anyone. I did not see the last canopy, but I believe(from what I was told and described) that he had other issues than just a hard opening. I believe he had a tension knot around several lines. When you have the smaller line, it will tend to cut through the other lines when a tension knot occurs. Tension knots are a growing problem as the lines get smaller! Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
morris 0 #34 December 1, 2006 spizzzarko, teardropshaped lines have been tested on paragliders in Europe (they used kind of a tape to make em shaped like that) and it didn`t work! It`s not like a falling raindrop where you just have gravity, the relative wind and nothing else. the wind isn´t coming always from the same direction (turn, dive, whatever) and any "second row line" is in the turbulences of the line(s) in front. Therefore the line(s) start moving, and once it has started, it`s not gonna stop again,... once again - round is better - not in general but for lines on a chute... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 292 #35 December 1, 2006 QuoteJust got my new lineset in the mail and it's 675, according to their website. I was expecting 500, should have asked before ordering I'm getting my Katana 107 relined with 675. The drag difference will not make a difference to me, but the lifetime might. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morris 0 #36 December 3, 2006 Is there anyone outthere who has experience with HMA 280lb? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morris 0 #37 December 6, 2006 Sorry guys, I might have been wrong with my statement "the perfect line is for sure a round one", cause if you take two HMA 500 lines (for example) one round and one shaped like an ellipse (for example), the ellipse one is going to be thinner (at least from the "airflow point of view"). That means, that even if its drag coefficient might be higher (and it`s only higher if the line vibrates, otherwise drag coefficient is even lower) the resulting overall drag is less... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #38 December 6, 2006 QuoteIs there anyone outthere who has experience with HMA 280lb? Yes, it's been tested, but when you get any smaller than the braid of the 160 kg (ie 350 lb) line (widely in use on the Nitro for many years), you run into two problems. One, it gets darn hard to put a good stitch in anything smaller, and two, the strength and logevity become so compromised it doesn't seem to me to be practical to use. Not to say that things can't change in the future, but remember, your canopy is more than your swoop vehicle - it is first and foremost a life saving device. If you start snapping lines and riding reserves left and right, how much benefit is there to that, regardless of the amount of reduced drag? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morris 0 #39 December 6, 2006 Thanks for the information, it matches with "PD-Opinion", they put 300s only on by themselves/at the factory due to the difficulty of bartacking those lines... I just received 500s from them (not round, "ellipse-style") very nice, about half the seize of vectran 500s.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alterego84 0 #40 December 6, 2006 i know of some testing that was done using very small HMA (can't remember but think it was around the 150#) and after 30 or so jumps the line would snap in a front riser turn and not always at the bartac, but in random places on the line. obviously the testers weren't landing this, but they did test it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #41 December 7, 2006 Quotei know of some testing that was done using very small HMA (can't remember but think it was around the 150#) and after 30 or so jumps the line would snap in a front riser turn and not always at the bartac, but in random places on the line. obviously the testers weren't landing this, but they did test it. it breaks at the shoulder. where the fingertrap ends. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #42 December 7, 2006 It seems as if we have hit a point of diminishing returns once you go smaller than 350 HMA. Like I have said earlier, I think that propper technique will far outswoop 150lbs hma. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cacophony 0 #43 December 7, 2006 They only give you one rejump so you better have strong enough lines to last a comp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #44 December 7, 2006 Quoteit breaks at the shoulder. where the fingertrap ends. Sometimes that's true, Mark, but often it's not. When Lee broke 4 lines on his canopy a few months back, it was the center A's and B's and the breaks were about 2 feet below the canopy. They did snap in about the same place, but not as you say. Another place they break is at the loops at the connector links. As these areas wear from contact with the links, this is easily explained. When you pull test lines to failure, a finger trap shoulder or a knot placed in the line will be the failure point, but in actual use I've seen several exceptions. Also, one "slight" disadvantage to softlinks is that the fabric-to-fabric contact with the suspension lines will cause more wear than smooth stainless links will. It isn't generally enough of an issue to go back to metal, but it does wear the lines (specifically Vectran, Dacron, and HMA). Spectra lines on spectra softlinks don't seem to show signs of this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #45 December 8, 2006 QuoteSometimes that's true, Mark, but often it's not. When Lee broke 4 lines on his canopy a few months back, it was the center A's and B's and the breaks were about 2 feet below the canopy. I thought that it was decided that it broke like that due to a possible tension knot...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #46 December 12, 2006 QuoteQuotei know of some testing that was done using very small HMA (can't remember but think it was around the 150#) and after 30 or so jumps the line would snap in a front riser turn and not always at the bartac, but in random places on the line. obviously the testers weren't landing this, but they did test it. it breaks at the shoulder. where the fingertrap ends. I've only broken an HMA line once, and it sure wasn't 150#, but here's where it let go: http://spiceweasel.net/skydivingstuff/kaboom3.jpgcavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LoudDan 0 #47 December 12, 2006 Same thing goes for when Hans broke the HMA's on my canopy, wasn't at the finger trap. Regardless, I like Mel's stuff.......even if you have to bail out after a shitty turn, you still sound fast. Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #48 December 18, 2006 QuoteI have both kinds of HMA. PD's and Mel's but the latter IMHO is much better; Mel's is thinner, almos hals the size. I just wanted to say Mel has the thin stuff (and I mean that stuff is thin!) and he also has some that is slightly thinner than Spectra but slightly thicker than the PD 500. I believe it is 650. I just got it put on my Stiletto 89 because it was opening too hard for my camera jumps. Now it opens almost like a Crossfire and feels a tiny bit faster. I have on;y put 6 jumps on the new lines so far but I want to encourage anyone with line questions to contact Mel. I had no idea how little I knew about line materials and how fast improvements were being made. Mel only tried to educate me so I could make an informed decision and never tried to steer me on a particular course. He just wants you to be happy with your choice. I know I am."... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #49 December 18, 2006 Hans's canopy and his body size must be to much for those line's. he has broken many. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #50 December 18, 2006 Mark, Actually he broke the first set after many more jumps than I asked him to put on them. That set of lines was the very first run of Technora that CSR made for me. In fact it was the first run they had made for anyone. I did not see the last canopy, but I believe(from what I was told and described) that he had other issues than just a hard opening. I believe he had a tension knot around several lines. When you have the smaller line, it will tend to cut through the other lines when a tension knot occurs. Tension knots are a growing problem as the lines get smaller! Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
