AggieDave 6 #26 August 3, 2006 Quotenot thermals not gusts. not rotors. just solid wind. Turblance effects canopy flight, but I don't believe that a typical gust significatnly effects a canopy in regards to turning altitudes and recovery arcs. So is someone going to start a turbulance thread? It can be summed up by "don't fly in turbulant conditions, it can kill you."--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #27 August 3, 2006 QuoteSo is someone going to start a turbulance thread? It can be summed up by "don't fly in turbulant conditions, it can kill you." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #28 August 3, 2006 LOL hey marks, you sent me two PM and now wont accept mine? Oh you're breaking my heart man, after all we've been through.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #29 August 3, 2006 well, i tried to help. you started bitchin about how much of an asshole i am for posting that. and personally, i dont get it. and i dont want to hear you bitchin at me anymore after i tried to explain something, the post 3 or 4 posts up. you think i was being an asshole to you... and there isnt anything i can do about that. i was simply trying to help. it is obvious, you dont want or need my help. so, i blocked you. i dont need your negativity... seriously.. have a good day. im sure someone else will help, Ian is pretty good at explaining it. maybe you should ask him in a pm.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #30 August 3, 2006 LOL OK bro. thanks for your help - I'll be sure to follow your teachings on all points of swooping and canopy control. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #31 August 3, 2006 QuoteQuotenot thermals not gusts. not rotors. just solid wind. Turblance effects canopy flight, but I don't believe that a typical gust significatnly effects a canopy in regards to turning altitudes and recovery arcs. So is someone going to start a turbulance thread? It can be summed up by "don't fly in turbulant conditions, it can kill you." When you quoted what I stated did you assume that I thought gusts changed turns or the altitude lost in them? I did not. Gusts don't change turn altitude or anything of the such, they just make it dangerous to jump. And what other thread are you talking about?~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #32 August 3, 2006 It was more along the lines of replying to Pendragon's post via the quote in your post. Sorry about the confusion.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #33 August 3, 2006 QuoteIt was more along the lines of replying to Pendragon's post via the quote in your post. Sorry about the confusion. Hey no problem! I still think that what I said has something to do with how it works though. Maybe I am wrong, that is just my working it out in my head.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #34 August 3, 2006 QuoteHey no problem! I still think that what I said has something to do with how it works though. Maybe I am wrong, that is just my working it out in my head. You should have been at the DZ for the long discussion about ground effect and swooping. Now add in the mix a couple of Aerospace engineers, a couple pilots and a couple swoopers. There wasn' even beer involved, yet, we came to some interesting conclusions. Who knows if they're correct or not.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #35 August 3, 2006 its like that time I figured out cold fusion while on acid Dhttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #36 August 3, 2006 I only ventured into turbulence as it was raised. You're right, the effects are different and are a deviation from this thread. Turbulence can result in loss of wing pressureisation and increased descent rate, but that's got nothing to do with normal flight. QuoteSo is someone going to start a turbulance thread? It can be summed up by "don't fly in turbulant conditions, it can kill you." Think you got it right there! -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #37 August 4, 2006 QuoteWell, the three of us agree... You can increase that to four now.. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swooopa-x 0 #38 August 4, 2006 Couple of points: "If you drop something in a train moving at 100mph, does it fall any faster than something dropped when u are standing on the ground? Likewise, in the air + canopy pilot system do you expect your turn to be any bigger whether the system is moving or not?" ...You dismissed this very quickly Slow down ... the dropping is the loss of alt in a turn... very good analogy actually... next: "When you turn your canopy you are exposing more of your wing to the wind, right?" No ... not correct. this is where you are missing it... the wind sees the canopy from the front. Always. If it did hit the topskin and get held in the dive the wing would collapse... not so? This whole concept is a tricky one... we get the basics and then think we've under stood it entirely...... if it still sticks just keep unwrapping it but keep an open mind. Hey ... forget everything you know and start again. Good luckPeople dont care how much you know until they know how much you care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #39 August 4, 2006 QuoteYou can increase that to four now.. 5! Mind you, I'm biased, that was my explanation quoted to start this thread! So, anyone got a better analogy than the seemingly quite popular train one? Or are we better off sticking to real life?--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #40 August 4, 2006 QuoteSo, anyone got a better analogy than the seemingly quite popular train one? Or are we better off sticking to real life? I'm still realitively fond of the "relative wall" analogy that Scott uses. Since if the same myths from wind effecting turns applied to real life, we would walk incredibly fast when walking west and incredibly slow while walking east.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #41 August 4, 2006 QuoteI'm still realitively fond of the "relative wall" analogy that Scott uses. Since if the same myths from wind effecting turns applied to real life, we would walk incredibly fast when walking west and incredibly slow while walking east. I'm not all there... Could you expand on the "relative wall"...?--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swooopa-x 0 #42 August 4, 2006 I like this one: A goldfish swims at 1 mph. A guy goes to the pet store; purchases a goldfish in a bowl and then gets in his ferrari to go home. On the way home he cranks it up to 200mph. The goldfish swims from the rear of his bowl to the front while this is happening.... Thats one SuperFast Golfish no!!!!??? No. The goldfish still only swims at 1mph so he only feels the water rushing past him at ......1mph. Now he does the same thing from the top of the bowl to the bottom... hey presto: 1mph. The moving mass of air we call wind is like the bowl/ mass of water. The canopy is like the goldfish: Totally unaware that he's even in a Ferrari and only able to swim as fast as his design will allow. Up Down Fwd Bckwd. It matters not. The fish feels the water flowing over his body frm his nose to his tail because like our canopy , he swims fwd. mmmm I feel like sushi nowPeople dont care how much you know until they know how much you care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #43 August 4, 2006 See: "Relativistic effects on canopy flight and the importance of sushi", Dr R Parkin et al., J. Am. Bolcks. (2) 2006 115-199 -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swooopa-x 0 #44 August 4, 2006 rislol "rolling in sushi lol" People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #45 August 4, 2006 I think that article talks about how the relative wind comes from ones ass after eating sushi davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #46 August 4, 2006 QuoteCould you expand on the "relative wall"...? Ok, even though this thread has now officially spun off into random analogies. Look at that wall. Is it moving? Are you sure? Walk up and put your hand on it. That wall is actually doing around 800mph. If its going that fast, why didn't it knock you down? If that wall is moving east to west at over 800mph why didn't it effect you when you touched it? Now if its moving that fast, if you walk towards it from the east does it approach slower or faster? What about when you walk towards it from the west? Does the wall come to you faster or slower? See, that's relative wall. Relative wind is similar under canopy. Always coming from the same direction and moving in the airmass as a whole. So if wind direction effects that canopy just as much as that wall effected your walking. You might have to change how you turn to walk around the wall to get where you're going, but the wall has no effect on how you walk. So in wind you might have to change where you do your turn horizontally so you get pushed into the swoop course, but the altitude will stay the same. That's a paraphrase of Scott Miller's relative wall talk. I'm sure I butchered it in many ways, but I believe I got the overall concept on how he used the analogy across.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #47 August 4, 2006 Quote LOL funny. I guess I am wrong by default then. But has it never happened before where a well respected and widely accepted theory has been proven wrong? Have you guys ever thought about this: If the wind really does "push" the top of your canopy what SHOULD happen? 1) Since we are more massive than the canopy, we have inertia, so we shouldn't get blown around as much by the wind. 2) The canopy would get blown more by the wind, thus pushing the canopy towards us in a diving turn that puts the canopy between us and the wind. 3) If the wind is strong enough, then the canopy should get blown right into pilot. It probably doesn't have to be that windy. Think of how far a canopy can get blown around by a few mph wind on the ground. Does this ever happen? I've never seen or felt it happen, and i've landed in some high winds. In fact, i'm sure if this were really the case, we would see lines becoming unloaded and people pounding in all the time because the wind pushed their canopies into them. Edit: Sorry, I just realized someone else alluded to this effect. Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f94sbu 0 #48 August 6, 2006 Interesting dicussion you are having, I think I can recall most of the points made here from quite a few times before Let me just add a different analogy that I sometimes use with my students... Lets forget about winds for a moment. There is no such thing as wind any longer. All that happens is when you are flying in the air, someone is grabbing the ground and moving it around. Most of the time people will stop thinking that 'I will fell the wind in my face when I turn into the wind' when they think about it this way. I hope that this analogy can be usefull for some of you. regards, Stefan Burstrom AFF I and Canopy Coach Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #49 August 7, 2006 I did not read this whole thread as I've seen this discussion far too many times. The question has nothing to do with aerodynamics, it is basic relative motion, from high school physics. But I thought of a way to explain it that maybe has no been suggested yet. Imagine you are standing on the ground in a 20mph wind. Let's call this "condition A". Imagine you are standing on the ground, there are no winds, the ENTIRE surface of the earth (including trees, buildings, and all) is somehow moving like a conveyor belt at 20mph. Let's call this "condition B". Could you tell the difference between A & B? No, you could not. In both instances, anybody on the ground would say "there is a 20mph wind today". Now, imagine you go make a skydive, on a no wind day. Little do you know it, but the surface of the earth has turned into a conveyor belt while you were on the airplane. You exit, deploy, and are flying your canopy in "no wind" (condition B), and yet everybody on the ground swears there is a 20mph wind! Will your vertical speed somehow be magically altered during turns? Nope. (You will have a fun time landing on that speeding conveyor belt if you don't fully understand relative motion, but the point I was trying explain had to do with vertical speed - even during turns - being independent from horizontal wind speed). EDIT: I see the poster directly above beat me to it. www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #50 August 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteWell, the three of us agree... You can increase that to four now.. t Cool, physics is a democracy? Add my vote too please!www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
