Confused

[Squeak 17]

Ok I'm confused, I have been reading a lot of post about downsizing and wingloads and reading a fair bit of stuff from manufactures websites in relation to max loads on canopies.
All the instructors, the DZSO and the CI, all of them tell me I would be fine on a 150 main. Spectre, Hornet, Silouette etc..
My confussion lies in the fact that everyone here says that I would be loading it too high and the maufactures say my exit weight is above their maximum weight load (e.g. Silhouette-150 150lbs is for intermeadiates and 172.5lbs is for experiences with a max loading of 195lbs)
Now I weight 165lbs naked, so geared up that gives me about 185lbs which is a wingload of 1.23:1.
So are my DZ people off the mark here.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[PhreeZone 15]

Tere are two types of jumpers. Conservitive and aggressive. This goes for DZ's also.

There are a few DZ's I know that could care less what you jump and they encourage poeple to get smaller canopies since they are more exciting to fly. On the other hand there are DZ's that at every downsize the S&TA is questioning you and double checking your abilities. Jumpers are the same way. I'm kinda a mix.. I question downsizes, but some people I'll talk down a few sizes since they are under to larger of a canopy (like this 105 pound girl under a 242 at the DZ).

When I was playing with different canopies this summer I got a lot of flack from other jumpers at that DZ since they thought I was down sizing too fast. I was still mainly at a 1.25 loading at 350 jumps and was playing with a 1.4 and was looked at as not being able to handle it. I had to talk to a lot of people to convince them that I knew what I was doing. At another DZ I was told to go jump a 1.6 loading at 225 jumps since my main was down and they thought I could handle a 120 Stiletto. at jump 240 I pounded in under my normal 150 canopy and spent the next 6 weeks nursing a badly sprained ankle. I fly a 136 Jedei at 1.4 now but since the weather is making me go uncurrent I'll probally toss my 150 back in for the safety factor for a few dozen jumps. My 150 is at a 1.27 loading and its quite zippy. I've ripped my arm up pretty good on an off DZ balloon jump landing since it was way to fast for the landing area.

In all honesty.. you can probally handle the 150 if you get GOOD canopy coaching way beyond your AFF stuff, remain current (more then 10 jumps a month every month) and learn everything about your canopy that there is to learn about it. If you can't meet this... look for a 170 or a 190. If you do meet it at least put some jumps on a 170 before buying a 150.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AndyMan 7]

It depends on two things:

a: the canopy

Older "F-111" canopies should not be loaded above 1.0. Period.

Slightly newer zero perosity rectangular canopies can be loaded from .8 up to roughly 1.4. Triathlons, Spectres, and older Sabres fit in here.

The latest in tapered 9 cells are usually loaded between 1.0 and 1.8, and up to 2.8 and 3.0 with crossbraces or air-locks. Sabre 2's, Safires, and Hornets are good starting points. This group also includes the high performance canopies like Stiletos, Crossfires, Samurais, and Heatwaves - but you're a long way away from flyint those.

So? The only part of this that's relevant to you, is that if you're looking at f-111, you do not want anything over 1.0. period.

b: the pilot

The first thing you need to understand is that the speed that a canopy turns, and the danger that canopy poses, does not increase linearly with wingloading. Wingloading plays a part, but it is not linear. What does this mean? An 80 pound girl flying an 80 square foot Sabre 2, will be flying a HELL of a lot faster, then a 280 pound guy flying an otherwise identicle 280 square foot Sabre 2.

The heavier you are, the higher wingload you can fly safely. While that 280 pound guy might be conservative when he buys something at 1.2 (260 sqft)[1], that 80 pound girl will have her hands full at 1.0 (100 sqft)[1]

I understand you're roughly in the middle between these two extremes. So you can't press the wingloading as much as our 280 pounder, and likewise won't be screaming in at 1.0 like our 80 pounder. You've got a baseline. You can fly 1.0 relatively safely, assuming you're a competent pilot.

What you need to evaluate from here, where you fit on the competency scale. Have you stood up every landing? Are you petrified on final approach? Have you ever brain-locked? Have you been taught how to do flat-turns and flare-turns? Have you ever landed down-wind, and did you stand it up? Lastly, what do your instructors and the knowledgable people who know you say? Do they tell you that you really need to work on your canopy contol? That you really need to stop screwing up? Or do they pat you on your head and say 'nice landing dude!'?

Based on ALL those answers, you need to decide where between the moron at .8, and the hotshot at 1.2 you are. That's a decision that only you can make, and you shouldn't do it without the advice from your instructors and knowledgable friends.

_Am

[1] Wingloadings calculated as reported body weight + 30 pounds for gear for him, and 20 pounds for her. The 280 pound guy really weighs 310, so at 1.2 he's under a 260. The 80 pound girl is really 100 pounds, so at 1.0 she's under a 100.

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Snowbird 0]

All I can say is I understand the confusion. When I started looking for gear this summer, I was told by a source I consider very reliable that I could go as small as a 150. I did my due diligence and read everything I could here and elsewhere, and that sounded too small, but I trust that person's advice. It really confounded me; why was he saying that? In the end, it came down to this: I would rather fly for many many years under something bigger, than fly for a little while under something small and faster. Eventually I will downsize, but I have all the time in the world so long as I keep myself safe in the meantime.

Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.
-Robert A. Heinlein

[drenaline 0]

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a wingload of 1.23:1.

Nice scary wingload for a beginner (been there done that, regret that), first 20 rides where scary, I only knew one sentence when it opened and it was "Oh shit!". Skydiving was fun until I had to fly that mercedes down to earth and land safe (something that happened after 20 crashes with the ground).

Good thing is that I have strong bones, bones that don't break but I have a weak spine and one of the injuries gave me a scoliosis, my spine looks like an S when its supposed to be like this |.

If you get the 150 try to make your first landings in a soft grass just in case, trust me its better than hard soil.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[ernokaikkonen 0]

Well, you're from Australia, and everone knows that all you aussies are crazy...

Seriously though, there are big differences in the "downsizing cultures" of different countries. Here in Finland, it's much closer to Australia than the States; we downsize much faster. The maximum wingloading for your first canopy(under 250 jumps) is 1.2(and rounded down from 1.24). Pretty much no-one jumps a 170 here, and 190's are practically unheard of. I don't think we have any more landing accidents than the US(but I have no hard data to back that up, just a gut feeling).

The advice I'm giving is to demo a 190,a 170, and a 150, and then decide what you're going to get. Don't buy a canopy that you'll be afraid to fly. And it's better to err on the safe side.

Erno

[Squeak 17]

The biggest problem wqe have here in WA is the lack of demo canopies. A friend on the DZ has kindly offered to let me jump her 170 a few times, but no one has a 190 on our DZ.
Most of the young guns fly 120 or lower, we have one guy who flies a 79, man that thing is fast.
So I'll be getting some time on the 170, but thats about it. I'm on the 230 now and it's not really any faster thatn the 270 i was on.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[ernokaikkonen 0]

Flying the 170 should give a pretty good idea:
-If it feels too fast for you, don't buy a 170 with hopes that "I'll get used to it", get the 190.
-If you're comfortable with it, buy a 170.
-I don't believe you'll feel the need to go for the 150 after trying the 170 for a few times; after a 230 it should be plenty fast.

[JohanW 0]

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.. I was told .. I could ..
.. I would rather ..

Snowbird, who has to land the d**n thing?
You got a vote of confidence, but you made your own decision.
To me, what you were told makes perfect sense (from here, in my comfy chair), and you made a (again, to me) perfectly sensible, other decision yourself.
There's nothing wrong with listening to advice and then not taking it.
Your supposedly reliable source did not force you to fly a 150, did they? They would have been comfortable with you flying a 150, you thought that sounded too small. Maybe the problem with you and the 150 is just between your ears, then again, maybe not.
Did you demo a 150 under controlled circumstances?

Johan.
I am. I think.

[Samurai136 0]

Many people forget what it is like learning to fly a parachute as a student. Keep in mind they are guessing based on observation. Since other people seem to be able to handle a 1:1 loading on a 150 you probably could too...

Use your best judgement after your friend lets you jump a 170. A jump in size from a 230 to a 170 should tell you enough to know for yourself what size is right for you.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[dragon2 0]

Hey, another dutch guy here....... cool.

Squeak,

I bought a spectre 150 for my first main, wich gave me a wingload of 1:1. I had 75 jumps at the time, had downsized like a good girl, and even tho my canopy did scare me a little bit the first 10 jumps, I knew I could handle the thing. My problem was between my ears.

I just downsized, at 220-something jumps, to a wingload of 1,2:1. More then enough for me now. Wouldn't want to have had this canopy much earlier, let alone just off student status. But that's me.

You already asked your instructors, the rest is entirely up to you. Like Johan said, YOU are the one flying it, and having to land it. If you are afraid of your canopy, where's the fun.

Also, size doesn't say everything, you can load say a spectre more than a silhouette which is half zp half F111. My 150 lbs gave me an 'intermediate' wingload on the spectre, but would have been 'advanced' on the same size silhouette. If you do buy a smaller canopy, my advise is to get a zp.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[JohanW 0]

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Ok I'm confused, I have been reading a lot of posts about downsizing and wingloads and reading a fair bit of stuff from manufacturers' websites in relation to max loads on canopies.
All the instructors, the DZSO and the CI, all of them tell me I would be fine on a 150 main. Spectre, Hornet, Silhouette etc..
My confusion lies in the fact that everyone here says that I would be loading it too high and the manufacturers say my exit weight is above their maximum weight load (e.g. Silhouette 150 - 150lbs is for intermediates and 172.5lbs is for experienceds with a max loading of 195lbs)
Now I weight 165lbs naked, so geared up that gives me about 185lbs which is a wingload of 1.23:1.
So are my DZ people off the mark here?

I checked your profile, and it would seem you keep it updated. It says you have all of 14 jumps.

I keep mine updated, but I'll tell you here: I have 300-odd jumps, and I jump a Silhouette 170. Have for the last 150 or 200 jumps. My wingload is ~1.25.

What the manufacturer is saying is some sort of one-size-fits-all (well, not exactly of course ), so you would be right in taking those figures with a grain of salt. Not even you on different days are the same size. My, very personal, feeling about the Silhouette sizing chart is they were rather conservative.

Honestly, at 14 jumps I would have been terrified under my current canopy. I was raised on Mantas. But you may be different, you may have been raised on Sabre 210's or whatever, I have insufficient information. So I really can't say they're off the mark, and see my above post in answer to Snowbird.

BUT also keep in mind there's a huge difference between a 150 and a 150. The Spectre and the Silhouette are chalk and cheese.
I demoed a Triathlon 175 when I was looking for my beer rig. Once. To me, it was a dog. The Silhouette and the Merit 170 and 190 made canopy flying fun again, after I had been doing two-stage flares on Skymaster 230's.

Soooo, I'm not an instructor, I don't know what canopy you're flying now, or how, or how well. You want my opinion? Demo. Have those I's of yours video and critique your landings. Downsize a size at a time. Rent, borrow or steal sizes inbetween. Jump under known, conservative conditions. Learn to fly your landings. Experience the difference between a tapered 9-cell and a square 7-cell. Don't push the envelope.
But also, do not say beforehand that a 120 would definitely be too small, because you just don't know. (It would of course, but how would you know?)

Johan.
I am. I think.

[dragon2 0]

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My, very personal, feeling about the Silhouette sizing chart is they were rather conservative.

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My personal feeling is that PD is conservative, period. Either that, or I am suddenly an expert to be able to fly a (zp) PD Lightning 143, and I WANT/am looking to fly a zp 126 now...! According to PD's sizing chart I should stick with a Lightning 218!!! They've got to be kidding, right..? We're talking square zp 7-cells here.....

I think PD is way more conservative than say PdF or Icarus etc. Maybe all american manufacturers are? Because of the threat of lawsuits or something??

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[hookitt 0]

There is one thing missing in most of the downsizing progression nowadays. What is it you may ask? Learning to fly a parachute. A good example would be the person who jumps a falcon 195 as their first canopy or something like a 150 sabre, both at about a 1:1 wingload. What is the most common progression here? Landing this canopy on the big dropzone, Thinking "Hey I'm getting good at this I'll get something smaller".

If the person can afford something new, they get it. Then they freak the shit out of themselves the first time the are forced to land between some phone lines on a road or in to a back yard between the porch and the swing set.

Recently a very talented newbie at our dropzone bought a 150 sabre at a great price. Fully loaded her wingloading is about 1:1. She flaired to high a few times, then to low. THEN after some ribbing, She asked some questions about flying a parachute. After that, she was out pulling high, stalling her parachute(for a long time mind you) back spinning it, Doing hammerheads, all kinds of stuff. Then at a reasonable altitude, she would stop her acrobatics. Her landings improved immediately. She was then comfortable to land in tighter areas, and proved it on a ridiculous spot.

Explore the boundary's of a larger parachute. You'll be amazed at what you learn and how much fun it can be. When you understand what a parachute can actually do, borrowing someones small parachute will be so much less of a danger, and a whole lot more fun.

That's my rant for now.

C-ya

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[dragon2 0]

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There is one thing missing in most of the downsizing progression nowadays. What is it you may ask? Learning to fly a parachute.

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Recently a very talented newbie at our dropzone bought a 150 sabre at a great price. Fully loaded her wingloading is about 1:1. She flaired to high a few times, then to low. THEN after some ribbing, She asked some questions about flying a parachute. After that, she was out pulling high, stalling her parachute(for a long time mind you) back spinning it, Doing hammerheads, all kinds of stuff. Then at a reasonable altitude, she would stop her acrobatics. Her landings improved immediately. She was then comfortable to land in tighter areas, and proved it on a ridiculous spot.

That sorta is what I'm doing.... I pull high allot (12000 ft if I can) and fool around with my canopy. Either all alone, or following a CREW formation or sometimes doing CREW myself. Learned a lot from that. Not sure if it improved my landings but it sure improved my confidence, which did help improve my landings.
I got an awful lot of canopy time, for a mostly-freeflyer, and I love it. Even my instructor thinks I'm nuts: You can fly all you want from a h&p from 5000 as well! It's cold!
Heh heh not that cold, and I should know since I'm a wimp. I just make sure only my nose sticks out of all the fleece !

I can sure recommend a couple of CREW jumps to get to know your canopy, and improve your flying skills. Also it's plain fun (and not as scary as a lot of people seem to think ).
Also the world looks completely different from 12000 ft. You can get blown away/fly away fairly easily if you're having too much fun to pay attention to your heading . Never happened to me tho of course!

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[JohanW 0]

What's the use in stalling a parachute for a long time ? Does it get progressively harder, or does it just take longer, to recover from?

What's a hammerhead?

Also, as a learning experience, is it useful to both toggle-stall and rear-riser-stall your canopy? Or is there no significant difference between the stall itself and the subsequent recovery?

Oh, and Saskia, you are a wimp and CreW is scary.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[JYorkster 0]

Squeak, ask yourself something...What are the advantages of having a smaller canopy? Rig maybe 1/2 inch shorter, saying how cool you are, etc. Seriously, think about the advantages. Then think about the advantages of having a larger canopy. Safe landings every time in any wind condition. Weigh the options and make the decision for yourself.

It's not that the guys at your DZ are trying to see you get hurt, it's just they may have forgotten what it was like to have only 14 jumps. There are also other factors that may influence their advice. For example, I found many jumpers in Oklahoma jump canopies that seem WAY too small for them. They do it because it is SO DAMN windy here, that larger canopies would mean they get winded out more often. But when they visit another DZ or the wind stops blowing, they are fighting to even stand up their landings. The opposite may be true for a DZ at higher altitude. There it may seem like the majority of jumpers have HUGE canopies for their size and advise others to get similar sizes.

All in all, there may be many reasons for the different advice. So here's another 2 cents....Get a canopy that you will be comforatble with in any wind condition and both high and low altitude DZs. This sport isn't going away. There is plenty of time to downsize when you have much more experience as a canopy pilot.

Good Luck, and let use know what you decide.
Rock

[darkwing 4]

I doubt that downsizing slowly is ever less safe than downsizing quickly. It is easy for downsizing too fast is to be a mistake. It seems that if there is significant disagreement you should always take the safe route.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[hookitt 0]

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What's the use in stalling a parachute for a long time ? Does it get progressively harder, or does it just take longer, to recover from?

The use is that it's very fun and exciting. It becomes easier actually, but come out of it slowly if you stall the heck out of it. One thing I didn't mention. If you jump a small elliptical, the long time part can get you in to some serious trouble. Ask a CRW dog about flying it backwards.

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What's a hammerhead?

build up some speed then flare real hard untill you are just about to the top of the pendulum out in front. then let up on one toggle and keep the other down. Loads of fun if you haven't done one.

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Also, as a learning experience, is it useful to both toggle-stall and rear-riser-stall your canopy?

It's very useful to explore the use of both front and rear riser in put. Be creative. when the stiletto first came out, I tried real hard (REAL HARD) to fold the nose under with front riser input. I couldn't do it. I did this because I saw the nose fold under on a straight in approach with basic double front riser input on a different type of parachute. The person flying the canopy was my friend was my friend.

The basis of the post was to suggest truly exploring the flight range of your canopy. Find out what it takes to get your parachute to quit flying. (please don't make me use a disclaimer here, use your judgement on this) Think about what you will do if you are forced to sink it in a tight area with obstacles. You are not always left with a choice. If you truly explore the range, the confidence level will increase and It will make you a better and safer canopy pilot.

Have fun.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Jiggs 0]

In Australia we are far more agressive than the states in downsizing new jumpers; part of it is macho, the rest is based on the fact that there is not the wealth of gear as in the states.

If you don't feel ready for the 150; you are not ready for it. Hell I'd question if just off AFF anyone would be ready for one. Go for an older cheap 170 (or a semi-decent one if you can afford it) and do a bunch of jumps on it in the shortest time possible, then go for a decent 150 when you feel you are ready for it.

You will chow in, how bad and how often is up to you. You will do some stupid things under canopy, a larger canopy means less pain.

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[boags 0]

I jump a Sabre 150 at a wingloading of 1.4. Currently trying to loose some weight (lol). I have just started jumping again after 2 years. Im at the York DZ every weekend. I said a couple of words to you in the cafe discussing closing pin necklaces and how mine had the 3 ring release as well to a curious new jumper. Just ask for Daniel (extra tight jumpsuit from all that weight gain) you can have a test jump on my rig for a beer if you want?