90,180 or 270

[Martini 0]

Ok I'll come clean . I REALLY like 400 degree turns. I did a really good one once.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[marks 0]

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kind of just like I could tell you were joking with the motorcycle analogy.

Sarcasm is hard to detect online. I got him, others may not. Dont get into a debate on the joke side of it.

I got him, maybe you didn't get me, i'm hard to get sometimes, so I understand.

I dont debate, i'm not good at it..

[jeiber 0]

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YOU are responsible for ending up behind them and should never even start a turn if you don't have clear airspace to do so.

Uh, yeah.... I know... The airspace is clear. Where did I say anything contrary to me being responsible?

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If you are coming from above and behind someone, you have made a HUGE mistake!

I start my swoop at 600'. Someone flying straight in on their final leg is below 50' as they prepare to land. Therefore they are below me.

I'm flying perpendicular to the landing direction as I set up for a 270. The jumper below is naturally going to be moving away from me, unless I learn to fly my canopy sideways. Unless their canopy is hooked up backwards, they will be facing away from me.

Are you saying two jumpers 50 - 100' apart, cannot land in the same direction, at the same time?

Please explain the huge mistake - I seriously don't see it.

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[davelepka 4]

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Are you saying two jumpers 50 - 100' apart, cannot land in the same direction, at the same time?

With a speed differential of 30 mph, and no prior planning between the two jumpers? It's probably not the best idea.

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Uh, yeah.... I know... The airspace is clear.

Alot of swoopers will wait unitl the LZ is clear before swooping, or land in a dedicated high speed area.

Some swoopers do pick their way through traffic, myself included from time to time. IF you are going to do this, you better be damn sure that:

-your airspace is clear
-THEIR airspace is clear
-you know the other jumper well enough to have a 90% sure idea of what they're going to do
-you have a plan B in reagrds to the other jumper interfering in your swoop, in addition to the plan B for the swoop iteself.

It's a tricky proposition at best, and I reserve it for my home DZ, on canopies I've got a good number of jumps on.

Doing it right is alot of work mentally, and can subtract from your attention to your swoop. Not good for learning, not good for anything really.

[jeiber 0]

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Some swoopers do pick their way through traffic, myself included from time to time. IF you are going to do this, you better be damn sure that:

I don't pick my way through for a number of reasons. Two of them are 1- lack of experience on my part and 2- risk of panicking other jumpers.

Picking your way through a gaggle of canopies is MUCH different than simply landing at the same time... even if it is 30mph faster.

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With a speed differential of 30 mph, and no prior planning between the two jumpers? It's probably not the best idea.

100' of horizontal separation is really alot.... I've never seen a DZ where people consistently land over 100' away from each other.

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Alot of swoopers will wait unitl the LZ is clear before swooping, or land in a dedicated high speed area.

Not easy to do unless you're first out and you spiral down, or last out and pull high... I'm a fat ass, even in brakes I fall faster than alot of other canopies in full flight.

Not all DZ's have the luxury of multiple landing areas.

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[davelepka 4]

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Picking your way through a gaggle of canopies is MUCH different than simply landing at the same time... even if it is 30mph faster.

It's not you in that case, it's the other guy, who has a high speed object appear in his field of view when he's on short final. Canopies moving at the same speed don't catch your eye like one moving much faster than you.

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unless you're first out and you spiral down, or last out and pull high... I'm a fat ass, even in brakes I fall faster than alot of other canopies in full flight.

Welcome to the world of the swooper. Pull higher, or start doing hop-n-pops. It's a bitch, but it's what you have to do.

As far as your decsent rate, a Vengeance 150 at 1.8 should be floaty as hell.

[ccowden 0]

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YOU are responsible for ending up behind them and should never even start a turn if you don't have clear airspace to do so.

Uh, yeah.... I know... The airspace is clear. Where did I say anything contrary to me being responsible?

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If you are coming from above and behind someone, you have made a HUGE mistake!

I start my swoop at 600'. Someone flying straight in on their final leg is below 50' as they prepare to land. Therefore they are below me.

I'm flying perpendicular to the landing direction as I set up for a 270. The jumper below is naturally going to be moving away from me, unless I learn to fly my canopy sideways. Unless their canopy is hooked up backwards, they will be facing away from me.

Are you saying two jumpers 50 - 100' apart, cannot land in the same direction, at the same time?

Please explain the huge mistake - I seriously don't see it.

I really hope you can get with a coach who can explain this to you.

If you are starting your 270 knowing that there are going to be people on final below you and your intention is to land with them, you are an accident waiting to happen. Sure, you can see them, but they can't see you. People don't always do what you are expecting them to.

If you don't see it as a mistake, that's fine. But I really think it is something you should think more about.

You only swoop when things are perfect. You only do a high performance turn when you have clear airspace for the entire turn and to landing. Having people on final or approaching final when you start your turn or are finishing it, is not clear airspace.

Sometimes finding the clear airspace to swoop can be almost impossible. If so, it's simple... you don't swoop. It's a pain. We have to pull high, ride around in brakes, wait for everyone to land, pick a place to fit in with other swoopers, get clear airspace and then execute a safe turn to land. Yup, it's a pain, but that is the small price we have to pay. Starting a turn when you see traffic that will be below and in front of you is downright dangerous no matter how aware you are. Shit happens. People mess up, YOU might mess up.

Please, please, just take a step back and think about it.

[YISkyDive 0]

I dont want to gang up on-

But- I just need to let you know this-

A very very very close friend and mentor of mine was killed a few years ago when someone thought they could swoop with traffic.

He was hit from behind at 50 to 100 feet... never saw it coming, on a very well respect and prominate DZ.

Recently, a similar accident happened when two people had a colision in mid air- costing lives again.

I dont know enough about 270s- set ups and things of that nature because A) I have a DZ where high performance canopies and swoopers land in a dedicated area, while all others land in another, and B) I have never done a real 270- but I do know what loosing a good friend, and another friend to a canopy collision is..

Its not fun, and I understand loosing a close friend, and another person you knew is part of the sport we are in- but they should never ever be lost on turns to final.

I'm not attacking you, or ganging up on you- I just want you to know that swooping with 100 ft seperation on a canopy you dont know is bad- because if you abort your 270, and your flight line is into or close to the other canopy 1 or both of you may not be, at best, walking off the airfield. Oh- and 30 miles per hour is roughly 44 feet per second.. leaving you about 2.5 seconds to fix a serious problem and not hit the ground. Thats considering 100ft seperation.

[jeiber 0]

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Welcome to the world of the swooper. Pull higher, or start doing hop-n-pops. It's a bitch, but it's what you have to do.

Welcome? Interesting choice of words.... now I remember why NOT to post here. Anyway, nearly 100 of my last 150 jumps in the past six months have been hop n pops - sometimes from 14k, mostly from 5.5k. Prior to that, it was a little less, I'd guess about 40/100 were hop n pops. I'm competing this year, so I'd expect the ratio to be even higher over the next few months as I train more heavily.

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As far as your decsent rate, a Vengeance 150 at 1.8 should be floaty as hell.

Far, far, from it. Vertically it drops almost exactly as fast as a Velo at 2+, but it doesn't have the forward drive. I've got lots of video if you don't believe me. Just had it relined about 2 months ago...

The entire point I was making is that a 270 set up requires alot more awareness in the pattern than a 180. At least I feel it does, having recently switched from 180 to 270. I was simply trying to reinforce what the original poster was saying.

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[jeiber 0]

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I just want you to know that swooping with 100 ft seperation on a canopy you dont know is bad

I've had this canopy for a year and several hundred jumps - don't know the exact number, hell, I don't even know what my total jump numbers are up to for that matter. Roughly estimating, I have almost as many swoops under this canopy as you do total jumps. I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert, but I definitely wouldn't say that I'm not familiar with the canopy.... further, I took Scott Miller's Advanced course under this canopy, so he was able to share LOTS of good info based on his experience with the Vengeance.

Very sorry to hear about your friend. If he was hit from behind, his horizonal separation was 0... i.e the swooper was directly behind him, not next to him, which is what we're talking about. Not only that, but the airspace was (obviously) NOT clear. Again, not what I'm talking about here.

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Oh- and 30 miles per hour is roughly 44 feet per second.. leaving you about 2.5 seconds to fix a serious problem and not hit the ground. Thats considering 100ft seperation.

Huh? This has nothing to do with anything.... 100' of separation next to another jumper on a parallel flight path. Not 100' in front of, not 100' behind.

My vertical decent rate is well over 30mph, leaving me ALOT less time than your talking. When the canopy is finishing it's recovery, I'm at around 10 mph vertical speed. In straight, level flight (no swoop), my canopy drops at 18mph vertical. 30mph is a pretty arbitrary number...

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[YISkyDive 0]

Here is a picture to help explain what I was talking about-

And when I said swoop a canopy you didnt know- I didnt mean you and your canopy- I meant the canopy thats on short/ long final, that doesnt know about you because your high- Low man has right of way.

Just consider this picture and realize that even if something like density altitude came into affect you could take you and someone else out.

Im sure my friend and the other person I knew werent being swooped orginally with 0 ft horizontal seperation. You look down at least between your feet.

There was an aborted swoop. what was amble seperation when _everything goes well_ was NOT EVEN CLOSE TO ampple _when everything goes wrong_

If you start your turn at 550 on a cold morning, but than it gets hot in the afternoon and you use 550 again, you might have to abort because your canopy just started loosing alot more alt. in a turn. If that abort is even close to what this picture looks like than I pray for you, and the innocent jumper.

Shit happens- golden rule to keep you alive through swooping is You Do Not Have To Swoop Every Skydive if that means traffic- dont swoop.


edited to add- when I started doing 180s, a swooper on the DZ pulled me aside, and said that I should not be swooping in my usual landing area because I dont have outs. He told me if I want to do 180s, land at the end of the feild away from everyone and dont hit the ground with yourself.

Dont break the cardinal rule Leave yourself OUTS


Like I said- the people that I knew that cant see their loved ones anymore probably didnt have 0ft horizontal seperation when the swooper initiated their turn. Something went wrong, horribily wrong, and that ugly thing called chain of unforunate events got put into motion.

[AggieDave 6]

Hmmmm...

You know, I've got about 50 jumps on a Vengence 150 loaded at 1.9-2.0 (mind you, that's not a HUGE number, but not bad for a canopy I've never owned) and I jumped with other folks jumping Velos during some of those altitude clear and pulls. Never once was I decending as fast as the Velos, it was easy for them to stay with me with only a bit of brake input. I wouldn't say that even at the same wingloading they decend at the same rate.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jeiber 0]

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Never once was I decending as fast as the Velos, it was easy for them to stay with me with only a bit of brake input.

I said almost exactly. Wouldn't you agree that a VN150 loaded at 1.84 is much closer to a Velo than 'floaty as hell'?

Descent rate in a turn is another matter.....

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[jeiber 0]

Do you honestly feel that 100 swoops and 300 jumps qualifies you to be telling anyone what (you think) the 'cardinal' and 'golden' rules of swooping are?

I'm no 'skygod' by any means... far from it actually, but I've got nearly double your jump numbers and 5 times your swoop numbers. Just chill a little bit on the advice - especially in telling people how to 'stay alive' swooping.

Your drawing isn't accurate, BTW. You're not considering each canopy's position, related to time. Not worth discussing further though....

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[YISkyDive 0]

Frost has a good point- PM Sent.

[frost 1]

You guys should take it to PM before both of you make complete jackasses of yourselves.
Just being honest.

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[Viking 0]

I think the most I'll do for some time is a 90. I havn't done that yet as i'v only been doing double fronts once on final. Even then i havn't taken double fronts down all the way yet either. Baby steps i guess.

I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

[Canuck 0]

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Do you honestly feel that 100 swoops and 300 jumps qualifies you to be telling anyone what (you think) the 'cardinal' and 'golden' rules of swooping are?

I've got a few more swoops and jumps than that, and I think those are two pretty fuckin good rules.

Two other things to think about:

1. Beware of the sashayer. Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, when one person is swooping and one person is sashaying, at the same time, that can really fuck up both their days.

2. Do hop n pops from 14 grand really make a person that much more proficient/safer at landing? I mean, if I sit right seat in an Otter, have the pilot do the take offs and landings, and I fly around a whole bunch at altitude, does that make me better at landing the plane? Prepare me for unusual landing situations? Teach me to land on a short runway, with a crosswind? Teach me to abort a landing when another Otter has decided to land in the same place at the same time? By no means am I saying that high hop n pops are a waste, but I think some people invest a little too much into what they are and aren't good for, and leave themselves with a false sense of security. Like I said, just something to think about.

Stay safe. Good luck with the swooping.

Canuck

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Do hop n pops from 14 grand really make a person that much more proficient/safer at landing? By no means am I saying that high hop n pops are a waste, but I think some people invest a little too much into what they are and aren't good for.

Of course a landing is a landing and experience in landings can only be obtained through landings. But high pulls allow people to learn the performance envelope and control characteristics of their canopy. And the more you know about what you canopy is capable of doing and how to control it, the better off you'll be on landings. High pulls are very valuable towards learning the performance envelope of your canopy. And if people don't know what this means, then they need to get some canopy coaching from reputable canopy control coaches. These coaches will open your eyes to the world of swooping and will arm you with drills and knowledge you can be doing up high towards learning what your wing can and can not do.

It's debatable as to whether we should even be swooping on regular loads, but people learning to swoop really need to do tons of hop n' pops and/or high pulls first before they attempt to go big on a regular load when there is tons of traffic in the skies with you. You shouldn't need to worry about those other canopies when you're learning to do things like 180s and 270s (I want to learn to do 450s but I haven't found the time or the place yet to be practicing these up high and until I find the time to play up high, I'll be stuck doing my lowly 270s). If people want to be serious with their swooping, they will find the time to dedicate jumps towards canopy control.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Canuck 0]

I absolutely agree with everything you say. Hop n pops are fantasitic for learning all kinds of things about canopy flight. I just get tired of hearing "it's OK that I'm jumping x canopy at x loading even though I only have x number of jumps, because I've done lots of high hop n pops."

Canuck

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I'm just get tired of hearing "it's OK that I'm jumping x canopy at x loading even though I only have x number of jumps, because I've done lots of high hop n pops."

If this person is truthful that they have spent time playing up high, then this is better than that guy/gal who insists that they're all that even though they only do normal full altitude jumps. The only thing missing from the guy/gal you mentioned above was whether or not they have received any formal high performance canopy control coaching.

If the person in questions has received coaching, dedicates jumps to canopy control and isn't scaring people on a regular basis then why are you concerned about them? Are you trying to hold people back? It's one thing for people to be held back because they haven't sought coaching and haven't dedicated jumps towards canopy control. But it's another thing to try and hold people back because ... well someone else might be afraid that the lesser experienced jumper might actually have a knack at doing this stuff and is afraid to have their ego bruised by the lesser experienced person. Believe me I know what it's like to be the lesser experienced jumper being told by the more experienced people that you don't have a hope in hell in doing well at the start of a swooping season (and I proved them wrong by the end of the season). Because of this, I won't under estimate the ability of the people with less experience than myself if the lesser experienced person is serious about their swooping. It doesn't come without hard work and the right attitude, but the lesser experienced person can succeed if they follow certain rules.

Jay Moledski told some of us earlier this year that when he was an up and coming swooper, people tried to hold him back and kept telling him that he was an accident waiting to happen. Look at him now. Hold people back if they don't have a good head on their shoulders, haven't sought coaching and haven't dedicated jumps towards canopy control. But let the up and coming swooper be exactly that, an up and coming swooper if they've done their homework and have a good head on their shoulders. You never know which newbie is that next World Champion in waiting ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Canuck 0]

I'm not trying to hold anyone back from anything. Giver shit - just don't kill me or anyone I care about in the process. I'm not sure how you pulled this spin off my post. There is no one "person in question". I am simply making an observation that a lot of people who are jumping wings that are questionable for their jump experience are justifying what most would consider a un-safe progression by claiming to have done lots of high clear and pulls. No hidden agenda.

Go read Jays downsize progression on the PD site (if you haven't already). For the number of times he states he "almost killed himself", I'm not sure he was receiving such bad advice. Holding someone back, and helping to steer someone down a safer and more efficient path of progression, are not the same thing. You, for all you touting of canopy control coaching, should be well aware of that.

Canuck

[frost 1]

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...a lot of people who are jumping wings that are questionable for their jump experience....
...Go read Jays downsize progression on the PD site...

You know if you ask some of the top pilots about their progression with downsizes, you just might find that early on in their careers they were EXACTLY that type of people you speak of.

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[marks 0]

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...a lot of people who are jumping wings that are questionable for their jump experience....
...Go read Jays downsize progression on the PD site...

You know if you ask some of the top pilots about their progression with downsizes, you just might find that early on in their careers they were EXACTLY that type of people you speak of.

to some extent, but if you really do go around and ask, i'm sure you will find a majority in the opposite of what you speak of.

[frost 1]

I'd agree with you in the case of NEWER pilots, people that came up in the ranks in the last 2-3-4 years.

But may be a good point to keep in mind here (and what i was trying to say) is this: Those who may be considered dangerous today, or out of their skill level, or downsizing too fast may just be the big dogs of tomorow. "IF" they survive that is. Good or bad, is awlays open for discussion (can of worms, no doubt) but the fact is - you do it long enough - you will get better and eventually you'll get really good.

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.