Entry into the world of swooping

[j3zz 0]

I am just starting to learn how to swoop my landings.

I have a few questions, my currrent approach is this,

Double fronts, to
90 degree frontriser/harness carve, back to
Double fronts,

My qustion is is this an efficient way into swooping.

My plan will be to take the 90 degree carve progressively lower until the third stage will be skipped,

At the moment I do it planty high enough that I still have to hang on the risers for a fair while,

Would I be better off just doing double front appraoches or does putting in a carve help to increase the speed which can then be maintained by a double front riser dive

Comments suggestions appreciated.

Jezz

"Now I know why the birds fly"
Hinton Skydivers

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Have you worked out how much altitude you lose in this maneuver? Apparently not, or you would not be "working it down". The way to figure you final turn altitude using any degree of turn or method of inducement is to practice the move repeatedly at altitude while watching your neptune/alti. Averaging out the altitude loss of those identical setups and turns at altitude will give you a base altitude to start working with. Simply eyeballing it and throwing turns when "they feel right" is not the way to go at it, especially as someone just starting out. This topic has been covered over and over in this forum, so do a search using the keywords "90,180,270".

Chuck

[Tonto 1]

When starting to use front riser input, first ensure there is no interference between riser and brake input. (That you are not putting break on while front risering) Very few spec line settings allow you to do this, and you may need your brakes lengthend a bit.

I also feel that crosswind landings should be mastered before any turn-to-swoop moves are attempted.

Why?

If you're planning a 90 degree turn to final, and find yourself low, you should have confidence in landing crosswind rather than completing the turn. When you progress to 180's, you can always bail to a 90 - traffic permitting.

Plan your outs. Your profile indicates an average of 1 dive per weekend for 5 years. Maybe more jumps will do more for your safety on this learning curve than anything else.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[j3zz 0]

I am happy landing crosswind or downwind as the need arises. At the moment I would not try anything other than a staight in approach in conditions that are less than ideal.

My jump numbers are not indicative of currency.

I did my first jump June 1995
did 109 between 1995-1999
Stopped restarted
Mar 2004 and have done 138 since with atleast 100 on my current canopy which I have had for just over six months.

Jezz

"Now I know why the birds fly"
Hinton Skydivers

[speedy 0]

Quote

The way to figure you final turn altitude using any degree of turn or method of inducement is to practice the move repeatedly at altitude while watching your neptune/alti.

Emphasis mine.
Maybe a neptune can help here but my alti is not going to help at all. Just a tap on the cover might change it's reading by 300 ft. It's just not accurate enough. A 45° front riser turn on a Sabre 150 is not going give any useful readings on most analoge Alti's.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Reginald 0]

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My jump numbers are not indicative of currency.

It's your life, but for my 2 bits I don't think you have any business trying to swoop. Good luck.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[chrisgr 0]

Reginald,

Why do you think he has no business trying to swoop? Please explain.

[Reginald 0]

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Reginald,

Why do you think he has no business trying to swoop? Please explain.

1. Low total experience “247 jumps”

2. Not particularly current “138 (jumps) since Mar 2004”

3. Lack of proper instruction as implied by this statement, “My qustion is is this an efficient way into swooping?”

So combine, low experience, lack of currency and lack of proper training and tell me what you think the odds are of Jezz getting hurt swooping?

The good news is that he is on a fairly docile canopy and is not loaded to highly.

Personally, I don’t care what he does but at my DZ I’d get an ass kicking by the instructors and more experienced jumpers if I was trying to swoop with as few jumps and as little currency as he has (or at least I would hope I would). I’ve only been in this sport a short period of time but I’ve already seen enough death and injury from people swooping. I have nothing against swooping as long as the people dong it have the experience, currency and training to do it with a minimum of risk. It is not for inexperience, un-current, untrained people. That is a recipe for disaster.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[superstu 0]

you know, one thing that i think is missing in everyone of these conversations is the environment that a 'new' canopy pilot is in. for instance, if someone is at a smaller dz with less canopy traffic they will be able to try more things and in my opinion progress faster. if they have experienced and knowledgable people around them that helps a huge amount as well.
personally if someone wants to learn more about swooping and canopy piloting i will give them any information, including the consequenses, that they might need. i don't think it's right for people, especially inexperienced people, to say they have no business learning how to swoop, it does no one any good.
that said, i think he has a good plan of attack for getting into the swooping scene by learning 90's, 180's, etc., listen to skymonkeyone and other knowledgable people, try and get video when ever possible (this could be one of your best tools), take all knowledge with a grain of salt, and finally when you fuck up (hopefully not bad) review what happened and don't do it again. take things slow and a set goals for yourself (this is another great thing to do). again no one person is right so get all info then make a decision.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[superstu 0]

for your current wing type and wingloading your approach is probibly the best it can get. eventually you will want to minimize wing distortion by integrating more harness input and less front riser input.
with your curent canopy it should be recovering by its self. so if you find yourself going from double fronts to stabing take that as a big warning sign that you either need to do it higher or come off the double fronts sooner.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[packerboy 3]

Keep in mind that some newer jumpers may define the word "Swoop" a little different than experienced bad assed canopy pilots on small canopies.

Myself, I am not interested in learning how to "swoop" as you know it, but I am interested in changing up my landings a bit... going a little bit faster and maybe dragging my feet along the ground for a few feet before stepping down. This is what I have heard lot's of newbies describe as a "Swoop". "Man, did you see my swoop on that one???"

When I ask for advice on going faster.. carving turns.. double fronts.. etc. I am not asking about doing snappy hook turns at low altitudes and cruising along the pond at 60mph.

Yeah, sure maybe I have alot of work to do before I downsize. (I like Billvon's list). But that's not to say I shouldn't be asking questions about how to go a little faster on my current canopy. It's fun, and If I don't get advice on how to do it from expert canopy pilots (which I am), than I will try to figure it out myself anyway... getting advice is the safest way to do it.

IMO if you are just going to tell people they have no business asking questions, than you have no business giving advice.

Edited to add: Shit I didn't even look at your jump numbers... If you are even looking in this forum than you obviously have at least a little interest in moving your canopy a little faster, why shit on the person who initiates the thread that you want to read????

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[Reginald 0]

Alright guys,

I’ll kill two birds with one stone.

Superstu, “to say they have no business learning how to swoop, it does no one any good. “

So you don’t think warning people against dangerous maneuvers that they don’t’ have the skills for does anyone any good? I’d debate that.

Packerboy, “IMO if you are just going to tell people they have no business asking questions, than you have no business giving advice. “

I never said this. I think asking question is fine, it’s how we learn. I think doing high performance landings with 138 jumps in 5 years is foolish.

Packerboy, “If you are even looking in this forum than you obviously have at least a little interest in moving your canopy a little faster”

This forum is Swooping AND Canopy Control, BTW. I have a great interest in learning to fly my canopy better as that is what gets people killed in this sport. Do I have any interest in swooping? No. Because at 300 jumps in 1 year I don’t have the experience to be doing it. Do I actively spend time learning to fly my canopy better? Yes.

I’m amazed that more people are not warning a guy with 138 jumps in 5 years away from high performance landings. And let’s be clear here “double fronts” is a HP landing!

Jezz, as I said I personally don’t care if you learn to swoop at this point. It’s your life. However, someone should be telling you this might not be the best course of action. I’ll reiterate my statement, “low experience, lack of currency and lack of proper training” these things in combination are not good.

I’ll say again, “I have nothing against swooping as long as the people dong it have the experience, currency and training to do it with a minimum of risk. It is not for inexperience, un-current, untrained people. That is a recipe for disaster.” Why am I against inexperience, un-current, untrained people swooping? As I said in my SHORT time in this sport I’ve seen a guy’s brains being wiped off the landing area, a number of broken legs and several people chow in that probably should have died but got lucky.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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I’m amazed that more people are not warning a guy with 138 jumps in 5 years away from high performance landings.

You need to read a bit more carefully, Reginald. He has done 247 jumps in 5 years, and ... "Mar 2004 and have done 138 since with atleast 100 on my current canopy which I have had for just over six months. "

He had done 100 jumps on his current canopy, and 140 jumps in 8 months. That's approx 18 jumps a month for 8 months, which is not really considered uncurrent.

I have the ~ same amount of jumps as you do and I can understand your position that you have seen a lot of bad shit happen, but you have to know that things can be done properly. This guy is not uncurrent. He is asking advice on how to start swooping which is more than can be said for a lot of up and commers who go out and whip 270s at 50 jumps with zero for instruction. While I don't know if this guy will get hurt or not, at least he's asking advice. I think the best way to keep this person alive would be to give good advice on what he can do to start swooping (ie, get an accurate alti, pracitce turns up high to see how much altitude they lose, start high and work your way down, start with 45 degree, then 90, etc...). Because, lets be serious here, it sounds like he's not going to give up on this, people might as well do their best to instill the knowledge to make him safe(r).

jmo.
Angela

[Reginald 0]

Sorry Angelia, I am perfectly correct. He’s done 138 in the last 5 years and his 247 have been over a 10-year period. Yes, I know his 138 have all been this year but the prior 109 were all 5 to 10 years prior to that. I hope my point did not elude anyone.

138 jumps in 6 months is not horribly uncurrent for most fun jumpers but IMHO is not current enough to safely try high performance landings GIVEN it is the sum total of his jump experience in the last 5 years.

Angelia, said, “I think the best way to keep this person alive would be to give good advice on what he can do to start swooping”

Here I disagree. I think reasonably people should be telling him that he should not be swooping at this point and to gain more experience and get proper training before he starts swooping.

Angelia said, “Because, lets be serious here, it sounds like he's not going to give up on this”

Here I agree with you. Unfortunately he probably wont’ give it up and wait until he legitimately has the experience and education. I hope too that he does not chow in and hurt himself.

Anyway guys, we can beat this to death. My opinion is simply that he would be better off NOT doing High Performance landings until he has more jumps and proper training. I don’t think that is at all an unreasonable position. Feel free to have your own.

Ron

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[skyhighkiy 0]

I was going to leave it alone, I just find it interesting that you're so adamantly arguing points about how many jumps you should and should not have, how current you should and should not be, and when it's ok to start swooping, when "Do I have any interest in swooping? No. Because at 300 jumps in 1 year I don’t have the experience to be doing it"

no harshness meant here, It's great that you have your opinion, but you should probably leave specifics, like what you should/shouldn't have, to people that actually swoop well, and survive.

BE THE BUDDHA!

[garywainwright 0]

I started 'swooping' with 250 jumps. By that i mean i started coming in on double fronts in a straight line on a sabre loaded at 1.3. I did this for a long time before doing any sort of turn.
J3zz - i see you jump at Nethers - get some advice off Al Macartney - one of the few PST Pro rated guys in the UK. Also get on one of Chris Lynchs Wing Tips seminar next year (Chris is also PST Pro rated).
Both these guys can give you very good advice.

Have fun!

http://www.garywainwright.co.uk

Instagram gary_wainwright_uk

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

I started 'swooping' this year with 200 jumps on my Sabre 150 loaded at 1.32. First I started coming in on double fronts in a straight line. That went very well and now I'm doing a 180° turn. I keep on doing this until I have that perfectly under control. Even if it will take me a long time.

Greetings from Belgium

[Reginald 0]

Well guys and gals, here’s the short of it. My opinion is that a person with 138 jumps in the last 5 years and 250 in 10 years should not be trying to swoop without proper training (if at all). It’s IMHO a recipe for disaster. I don’t think it is at all an unreasonable position to take and I don’t think it is at all unreasonable for me to state that opinion even at 300 jumps. Quite to the contrary at my DZ we expect people to tell each other if they feel they are doing something unreasonably risky. In fact people have been chastised for not telling others they are taking on too much risk, because we all need to look out for each other.

However, each of us has a different risk propensity and J3zz is more than welcome to do whatever he wants, as are all of you. Also, just because some people have gotten away with it does not mean it is not unduly risky; it’s a matter of probability, not certainty, and stacking the odds against you is...what it is. I am aware of a number of the people’s reputations in the skydiving community that have chimed in on this post. I have a great deal of respect for several of them, even if I disagree with their positions and I respect their right to state that opinion. Others I don’t hold in as high of esteem. However I respect their right to state their opinions too.

Frankly, if I’m going to have a reputation in this sport it is going to be as a conservative and safety conscious individual. I think that stacks the odds in my favor.

J3zz and I have talked via PM several times and are cool with each other on this topic. I think he appreciates my concern for his safety, as for all my brothers and sisters in this sport. He can speak for himself but I think my raising some concerns might have caused him to reassess the safety of what he is doing. Whether that means cooling it until he gets more experience, getting professional training or continuing on with exactly what his is doing because he decided that the risks are acceptable to him is his decision. Whether or not my concerns change his mind or affect his behavior in any way, I consider just having him reassess the risks again a success.

Blue Skies Black Death,
Ron

PS: be safe and have fun!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[j3zz 0]

Sure your post did make me re-assess as to the outcome time will tell.

Thanks for the concern.

Do the perceived risks out wieght the percieved gain?
Only I know

Do I really have enough experince to even know the risks?

Well although jump numbers are important(there is no substitute) so is time in the sport and I have lots of that. Seeing people break themselves, knowing people who have died, and listerning to tons of people on the risks, techniques and dangers must count for something in the assessment of risk sphere


Jezz

"Now I know why the birds fly"
Hinton Skydivers

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Quote

Well guys and gals, here’s the short of it. My opinion is that a person with 138 jumps in the last 5 years and 250 in 10 years should not be trying to swoop without proper training (if at all).

Try not to make it sound so spread out. I have 300 jumps in little over a year... but i'd sound hellabunch more uncurrent if I said I have 300 jumps in the last 5 years.

I think that someone who doesn't swoop and has no interest in it should keep their advice out of a conversation about swooping. You have not done it, have no training in it, and since you feel that a certain # of jumps = ability to swoop you obviously know very little at all about it.

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Also, just because some people have gotten away with it does not mean it is not unduly risky;

Everything is risky. Getting good advice and taking it slow will lessen that risk signifigantly.


jmo.
Angela.

[justdumi 0]

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My opinion is that a person with 138 jumps in the last 5 years and 250 in 10 years should not be trying to swoop without proper training (if at all).

Quote

I dont get you man. In fact your reasoning process is questionable in itself. For a start why dont you just quote things the way they are ok. Its 138 jumps in 8 months. Dont even insist on anything otherwise.

Ok Reg. You may have PMed each other and are cool with each other, but unfortunately your sentiments were expressed generally and therefore will be accepted/ questioned by the general.

Answer this question though if you dont mind. Here is a dude with how ever many jumps (100 jumps on his current canopy which cant be faulted). What do you want him to do under canopy? We have been told so many times "dont downsize before you at least fully understand how to fly your current canopy". What does understanding canopies mean to you? Say Jezz went away and did 1km straight in approaches on the same canopy for another 300 jumps? What would you say then if he asked his question again? What extra would he be guaranteed to have learnt about landing his canopy then?

Prudent your are...rational you aint. Im sure you have so much fun under canopy.

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[EBSB52 0]

After reading this thread, I'm inclined to lean toward Reginald. Now I guess I will take some bashing, so let me disclaim a bit.

I'm a Kevorkianite, that is, I believe that if someone wants to kill themselves it should be a right, unlikethe political right wants to and has statutorily prohibited it. I hate it when someone intentionally commits suicide while skydiving, but hell, any one of us might find ourselves at that point. Maybe a gun, maybe altitude, maybe pills; your choice, real hard to prosecute.

With that said, you don't have the right to kill someone else, and this, "out" to which we refer might be someone else's primary landing zone. It happens all the time where 2 people come together on landing, which means someone was probably overtaking someone else.

Now, if a general newbie, like anyone with under 500 jumps wants to do crazy shit, all I can say is: let me watch!!!! I love to watch crazy shit, as we all do, but just don't hurt anyone else. Problem with this theory is that seldom does a person get the landing area all to themselves, so they put others at risk when they MAY not be ready.

Let me qualify the 500 jump number thing. I realize that some people are a hazzard at 500 jumps, or are just getting by, and some are great at 200, so I'm using a broad brush when I say, and agree with Reginald that 247 is relatively inexperienced when learning to do an activity within skydiving that has the leading genre of mortality. We're not talking CREW, not wingsuit, not skysurfing, we're talking about venturing into an aspect of skydiving that kills more skydivers than any other aspect of skydiving.

Again, go for it, but don't kill anyone else with an out.

Now, the next issue is that of motive. Why would a low-timer want to hook? Maybe to show off? Maybe to run with the big boys? I dunno, just sens me the footage please!!!

[j3zz 0]

meant to PM doke

Jezz

"Now I know why the birds fly"
Hinton Skydivers

[rsibbald 0]

Your current approach does sound sensible.

I would much rather see someone with a few hundred jumps asking about the right way to learn swooping, than to continue flying their canopy blissfully unaware of how it performs. I see many people with 500-1000 jumps with no clue of how to fly their canopy safely, and learning early is the key to changing that situation.

Do you have a Neptune? If not, they are a worthwhile investment if you intend to do a lot of canopy practice, especially with the new swoop alarm mode. It means your eyes can be in more important places than looking at your alti.

Keep your progression slow and steady.... repetition is the key to each stage. Make sure you don't copy any of the many bad examples at this end of the country!

[chrisgr 0]

Be careful about ‘doing it for the rush’. That kind of thinking can lead to bad decisions.

Swooping can be a rush and a buzz, but you should feel that AFTER you’ve put your feet down. Setting up and entering into an approach should be a slow, deliberate process that allows you to see the entire landing picture and identify potential problems and available outs.

Assuming that you’ve mastered straight in approaches using double-fronts, your learning process sounds good …

Double fronts, to
90 degree frontriser/harness carve, back to
Double fronts,

Continue being conservative and enjoy safe swoops!