advices for beginner swoop pilots

[insane 0]

hi folks !

I am a french skydiver, do accuracy & style competitions, and I would like you to give some advices to start swooping safely. I have 300 jumps, 55 kg (naked), I am looking for a silhouette 135 or 150 ft² (is it a good choice?)

All advices are welcome, thanks in advance !

Cheers

Nicolas

[gobbi 0]

Forget about silhouette for swooping. You have to get an elliptical/semi-elliptical wing loaded at 1.2 minimum just to start to have fun. If you have no experience at all with fast approaches for landings, before you buy a new canopy, experiment with yours or someone else's (the basic things apply to any canopy, even a PD-210). Start using straight in aproaches with 2 front risers, then 45, 90, 180 degree turns (with front risers). Allways, when experimenting, start your turn high and with little riser input (very long open turns). It is a lot better to be too high than too low on final. Make small corrections from one landing to the next and try to learn something from every landing. Idealy, you should be able to spend the last 5-10 seconds before getting to the ground level with no riser or toggle input (except to save you life!!), and use toggles just to plan out (first input) and flare along the swoop. Video your landings!!!!! Ask experienced people to look at your landings!!!! Be safe!!!!!

mg

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Forget about silhouette for swooping. You have to get an elliptical/semi-elliptical wing loaded at 1.2 minimum just to start to have fun.

My Monarch 135 (ZP square at 1.26), Monarch 155 (ZP square at 1.15), Turbo Z 205 (ZP topskin square at .88), and Dagger 244 (F111 seven cell at .68) all swoop fine. My Fox 245 (.68) does less well although any modern skydiving canopy should do the trick.

[Spizzzarko 0]

Forget about silhouette for swooping. You have to get an elliptical/semi-elliptical wing loaded at 1.2 minimum just to start to have fun.


Wow,

That's a pretty asinine thing to say, and you might want to rethink a few things if you really believe that.
Swooping is done with speed carried over from an approach, and can be done on almost any canopy. It's not a matter of the type of canopy, but how good the person is underneath it.

[ManBird 0]

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Idealy, you should be able to spend the last 5-10 seconds before getting to the ground level with no riser or toggle input (except to save you life!!)

Uh... um... uh... er...




No.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[hookitt 0]

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Forget about silhouette for swooping. You have to get an elliptical/semi-elliptical wing loaded at 1.2 minimum just to start to have fun.

Absolutely incorrect information. I can swoop my 240 and my 260 7 cells at .7 wingload just fine.

Quote

Start using straight in aproaches with 2 front risers, then 45, 90, 180 degree turns (with front risers). Allways, when experimenting, start your turn high and with little riser input (very long open turns).

Not incorrect but this is way to vague to be useful.

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Idealy, you should be able to spend the last 5-10 seconds before getting to the ground level with no riser or toggle input (except to save you life!!),

Well, um.. kinda... but it's not accurate enough to agree with. I'm going to stop with the quotations.

please refrain from swoop advice for a while.
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insane, you may want to pick up Brian Germain's Parachute and it's Pilot. I don't have the book yet but i've heard very good things about it. Read this Thread (<==clicky) and you can figure out where to pick one up. It's a place to get accurate information.

There's so much to learn when it comes to swooping, so take it slowly and you'll progress much quicker.

Have fun and stay safe.

[mnischalke 0]

First off, the Silhouette is a semi-elliptical canopy, in that it has a tapered tail.

My first 150 jumps were on a Silhouette 210 @ 1.1:1 (after 10 on a Spectre 230). I am guessing that would be somewhere in the range of your prospective wingloading. 100 of those 150 jumps included the use of front risers for landing. The inputs ranged from double fronts to 120s. The upper end of my canopy's surf would be anywhere from 60-80 ft, depending upon the approach and the winds.

The canopy has an excellent glide ratio, but I wasn't too fond of the short recovery arc. The canopy would plane out quite rapidly after releasing the speed-inducing input. On the other hand, a well-timed turn resulted in many "hands-off" or toggles-up landings. I would only use toggle input at the very end of the surf to set down. I am not really sure I even needed to, to be quite honest. This can be really cool when your feet are a foot off the ground. I didn't like it when I released the risers too early and found myself surfing 15 ft off the ground, waiting for it to stall so I could sink the rest of the way to the ground. The recovery arc issue was probably a good thing for me, as it made me pay very close attention to important variables of the approach.

There are a lot of great canopies out there under which you can learn to swoop. Your choice is just going to depend on the flight characteristics you desire and feel comfortable with. I found the Silhouette to be a great choice to start, but that's just my experience.

hope I helped,

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[tattoojeff 0]

dude not to gang up on ya, but what the hell are you talking about. you truly need to read more and type less on this topic. i do somewhat agree that the siloette aint the best choice for swooping but it doesnt mean it cant be swooped and she/he cant learn how to swoop on it. and your w/l comment was borderline dangerous advice!!! if you do swoop you need to change some things in your head or you may find yourself really hurt. go easy dude listen learn be willing and HUMBLE!

[gobbi 0]

By no means I meant that you cannot swoop with a Silhouette - or any canopy. From what I understood the original poster wants to adopt swooping as his modality. Swooping necessarily requires a higher vertical speed approach and converting that speed into drag+lift=horizontal speed, and that higher speed is harder to acquire with a larger canopy. In a smaller canopy, you can start swooping with no front riser input at all (straight in, or turn) and make progress faster. If I want to advise an experienced skydiver about buying a parachute for swooping, I am not going to recommend a Silhouette, or a PD-190 or even a Sabre, because there are better choices. That's why I told him to try doing the basics with his current canopy, or borrow someone else's parachute BEFORE he spends money on something he is going to want to sell after 150 jumps.

Now if you just want to swoop to have a bit of extra fun in your jumps, then it's a different story...

mg

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

You have obviously never seen me borrow a Sabre 190 at the end of the day when I am too tired to pack my own rig and swoop that thing the distance of the landing area. The principles are the same, so what exactly do you think those of us who have been skydiving since the advent of zero-p and elliptical canopies learned HP landings on? We have been "turf surfing" for much longer than "proper" swooping mains have been around.

Chuck Blue
D-12501

[gobbi 0]

I believe you. I have seen people do 200+ ft swoops with a PD210. It's not my point though. My point is this: a smaller canopy will usually be more fun to fly and to land. Needless to say that you can kill yourself a lot easier, but I am just assuming every experienced skydiver knows that...

mg

[trigger 0]

Mate....ASSUME=ASS-U-ME..please refrain from assuming anything esp when giving advice

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[mnischalke 0]

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...a smaller canopy will usually be more fun to fly and to land. Needless to say that you can kill yourself a lot easier...

The way I see it, that's all the more reason to begin the high performance flight progression on a larger, more docile wing.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[odendan 0]

Hi Nicolas,

Not sure if this thread is helping or confusing you. I suggest that you seek out advice from some of the local canopy pilots that may be better at looking at your skills and helping you decide what you need.

Skymonkey made an excellent point regarding the fact that you can swoop any canopy. I learned how to swoop on a Spectre which is not known as a "Swoop Canopy" but I could push 200 ft on a good day. As for the size of canopy, I was once told that if you can not comfortably land your canopy in a 5mph downwind, then it is too small for you. So keep that in mind when you demo those canopies at whatever wing loading you feel comfortable with.

The next time you are in Empuria, Lapalisse, or any other large operation, talk to some of the swoopers there and get thier opinions and direction. This forum is a great place to pick up information, but for someone new it can get confusing. Their are quite a few excellent pilots in Europe that offer canopy control classes, these guys may be a great reference for you as well.

whips n' chains n' hand-grenades with a little ugly on the side.

[gobbi 0]

>> Swooping is done with speed carried over from an approach, and can be done on almost any canopy.

I never disagreed with that.

> It's not a matter of the type of canopy, but how good the person is underneath it.

Here is what I disagree with: people swoop because it is a pleasurable thing, because it is great to feel the ground going 40mph 2 inches below your feet. Now, FOR MOST PEOPLE, it is much easier and more fun to do a long swoop underneath a more efficient canopy than underneath a large canopy. If it worked otherwise we would see a lot more people swooping PD230's. aying that swooping has nothing to do with the canopy is like saying that the performance of a formula 1 racecar has nothing to do with the car, just the pilot. Having said that, I do agree that a canopy won't swoop by itself and that it does take a long time and a lot of experience to do it safely.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Now, FOR MOST PEOPLE, it is much easier and more fun to do a long swoop underneath a more efficient canopy than underneath a large canopy.

Most people aren't relevant to this discussion.

The original poster is an accuracy guy who jumps a parafoil loaded at .52 pounds/square foot - lower than most people on a student canopy.

If that's where the bulk of his experience is (I don't know and you didn't ask) it's not appropriate to suggest a moderate wing loading (for him) to swoop.

[gobbi 0]

>> Mate....ASSUME=ASS-U-ME..please refrain from assuming anything esp when giving advice

You mean not every skydiver should know that this is a risky sport - maybe the least forgiving of all sports - and that high performance landings tops the list...?!?!

[gobbi 0]

>> it's not appropriate to suggest a moderate wing loading (for him) to swoop

I agree but... what do you mean by words like "moderate" and "appropriate"??

Atair suggests the cobalt loaded at 1.2-1.4 for beginner skydivers (go to www.extremefly.com FAQ for more accurate info on this). Some might think this is way too high...

mg

[TheMonkey 0]

he should definitely buy an Atair then, no chance will get hurt since they say it's ok...

couldn't help myself, had to grab my seal-whacking-stick and club you with the rest of the gang!

---------------------
Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

[DShiznit 0]

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Atair suggests the cobalt loaded at 1.2-1.4 for beginner skydivers (go to www.extremefly.com FAQ for more accurate info on this). Some might think this is way too high...

mg

<---- Not an expert by any means... (disclaimer)

I have yet to see ANY beginner fly a Cobalt, or anyone recommend that a beginner get a Cobalt at all..... (should've thought before you posted that...)

[airdweller 0]

I am a french skydiver, do accuracy & style competitions, and I would like you to give some advices to start swooping safely. I have 300 jumps, 55 kg (naked), I am looking for a silhouette 135 or 150 ft² (is it a good choice?)

All advices are welcome, thanks in advance !

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My advice would be to listen to SkymonkeyONE

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"From the mightiest pharaoh to the lowliest peasant,
who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" C. Montgomery Burns

[trigger 0]

You mean not every skydiver should know that this is a risky sport - maybe the least forgiving of all sports - and that high performance landings tops the list...?!?


Mate,like me[ASSUMING your profile is correct]you're at relative newbie and for the love of DARWIN sometimes [in my opinion]it just pays to shut up and listen.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[raymod2 1]

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...try to learn something from every landing

This is good advice. The most satisfying swoops are not the ones that go exactly as planned but the ones where you learn something new.

[piisfish 135]

I don't know what canopy he's going for now... He was giving advice to someone on the french forum asking about the sabre2, telling him to get a silhouette OR a stiletto

edited to add : by the way, your avatar is one of my all-time superheroes

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[gobbi 0]

> Mate,like me[ASSUMING your profile is correct]you're at relative newbie and for the love of DARWIN sometimes [in my opinion]it just pays to shut up and listen.

You' re also assuming I only know from my experience and that' s incorrect. Most of what I know is from what I listen/read/see/reason. I have seen too many " experienced" (high # of jumps) skydivers get injured from landing, some of them did not survive to tell what went wrong. I am learning HP landing myself and I will always be glad to share what I know and what works for me with other people. If you feel I don' t have the necessary credentials, ignore me.