freeflygoddess 0 #1 March 30, 2004 Ok, I hve heard couple of different answers. Is the Fusion more like a Sabre 2 or a Stilletto? On Precision's web site it says it is a 9 cell eliptical canopy, but I heard someone from Square One say that it is like a Sabre2. So I am confused. I demoed one at the Holiday Boogie and I loved it, but I can't afford a brand new canopy right now, and plus I don't want to make that big of a change if it is eliptical while I am pregnant. I do however, need a new to me canopy, because due to a very hard opening on my Sabre the lines on one side are longer than the other, thus causeing a constant turn to the right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivegirl 0 #2 March 30, 2004 PM Groundzero (Chris Martin w/ Precision), he'd be happy to answer all your questions.Pink Mafia Sis #26 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygoddess 0 #3 March 30, 2004 sweet thanks, I just did that... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivegirl 0 #4 March 30, 2004 No prob Pink Mafia Sis #26 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #5 March 30, 2004 It is like a sabre 2....mildly eliptical. more tapered. both canopies are similar. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #6 March 31, 2004 The Fusion is closer to a Sabre2 than a Stiletto. The Nitron is the Stiletto class canopy made by Precision. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #7 March 31, 2004 The Nitron is a much better diving canopy than the Stiletto, I thought it flew very similar to the Crossfire2. The Fusion flies very similar to the Sabre2 D______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #8 March 31, 2004 QuoteThe Nitron is a much better diving canopy than the Stiletto, I thought it flew very similar to the Crossfire2. The Fusion flies very similar to the Sabre2 D I did a bunch of Jumps on the Nitron when the Stilletto 107 was my canopy of choice, I felt it didnt dive nearly as much as the stilletto, and I was doing back to backs with a 107 stilletto and a 99 nitron. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #9 March 31, 2004 Is this their own canopy, or is it a "replica" safire like the synergy is to the omega? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cacophony 0 #10 March 31, 2004 QuoteI do however, need a new to me canopy, because due to a very hard opening on my Sabre the lines on one side are longer than the other, thus causeing a constant turn to the right. A re-line would be cheaper I didn't think that type of a thing was possible. If you are pregnant I would worry more about the hard openings rather than a slight turn anyways. Sabre's do open hard, but they have been around for a long time and jumped by tons of people. Perhaps your PC is too big, or maybe you should try some new packing techniques. Just trying to save you some money! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygoddess 0 #11 March 31, 2004 Thanks, and I would reline the canopy, if it was worth it, but the canopy has so many jumps on it, it is better off being a car cover. The hard opening was from a pack job that was done in a totally different climate, and sat in there for a month or so. I didn't pack it either...I don't pack at all any more due to knee surgery so I get what I pay for I guess. I like my Sabre, but it has seen it's better days. I am not too worried about it right now, just looking for something else that I can get use to before having to be put on a jumping hold, which sadly may happen before I can get a new canopy. Then when I do come back, I am a bit worried about retraining...does any one know about being on a canopy that you need to be really current to jump and then having to take a break and coming back? Any ways, just my concerns is all. I really would have liked to get into a Fusion or even maybe something simular, but the more I think about it, the better off I am sticking with the same canopy and waiting until after I come back. Which might be a great time to send my gear off to PD to do check ups on everything, since I know I will have the time to wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #12 March 31, 2004 QuoteIs this their own canopy, or is it a "replica" safire like the synergy is to the omega? Depends who you ask....but they will tell you it's "there's".....so what ever that's worth...but they did copy the nitro/nitron with license of course. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #13 March 31, 2004 QuoteThe Nitron is a much better diving canopy than the Stiletto, I thought it flew very similar to the Crossfire2. The Fusion flies very similar to the Sabre2 D I, personally, didn't see any real difference between the two as far as the dives go. The openings are much better on the Nitron, though. I was jumping a Stiletto 120 and a Nitron 135(215 exit weight) at the same time, and found that the dive was roughly the same...actually, a bit less on the Nitron, but I attribute that to the slightly lower wing loading on that canopy. Great canopy...just recovers too quickly for me. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #14 April 1, 2004 Quotebut they did copy the nitro/nitron with license of course. And others without license. Did I say that out loud? Then again, I dont know the law, but I know what I dont like. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #15 April 1, 2004 QuoteThen again, I dont know the law, but I know what I dont like. I'm with you on that one..... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #16 April 7, 2004 QuoteQuotebut they did copy the nitro/nitron with license of course. And others without license. Did I say that out loud? Then again, I dont know the law, but I know what I dont like. Jump an FX/VX then a Xaos 21/27 and you will find that they are totally different canopies. I think that PD had the patent on crossbracing with the Excaliber. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #17 April 9, 2004 I've never been in their factory, but I'd be willing to bet that they build the same extreme they did for Icarus and then modify it to become a xoas -close off the center of the cell (by the looks of it, by just pulling the top skin down a little tighter, you can see the distortion on the top skin of all xaos canopies) -change trim and use hma lines -make stabilribs -put brass gromets on slider They were still using the Icarus order form with the Icarus part whited out (well, almost) QuoteI think that PD had the patent on crossbracing with the Excaliber. And I dont remember saying Icarus pioneered crossbracing, but they did pioneer crossbraced zp elliptical, a project PD said they abandoned because they saw no future in it. Again, I am not saying I know it all, but it appears the last main canopy Presicion designed was the monarch or the batwing. How about I take someone else's canopy and I change a few things and sell it as the best thing since sliced bread. I have seen them write that they developed the extremes and it simply isnt true. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #18 April 9, 2004 I won't say that they developed the extreme but they were a part of the decision process. The Xaos is a nice replacement of the Icarus project and I was an icarus fan!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #19 April 9, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- but they did copy the nitro/nitron with license of course. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And others without license. Did I say that out loud? Then again, I dont know the law, but I know what I dont like. Johnny Ok Johnny... I can sit here and read this for so long, then have to respond. First you would probably enjoy a history lesson. First, lets talk about licenses and such. The patent for crossbraced technology belongs to PD, albeit for the Excalibur of years past, it is intellectual property and Precision (not Icarus, mind you) has agreed to pay royalties for the rights to build it. We agreed to pay royalties when we met Paul Martyn (JYRO) of New Zealand Aerosports and began building his EXTreme (and paying royalties to PD for each canopy built). Did you know that Icarus is not paying PD for the intellectual property rights to crossbrace technology and imports into the USA? That agreement is between PD and Precision. And we struggle to pay the additional cost for each canopy built, but we will as we sincerely respect the designer's ideas. While we were involved with the original EXTreme, we found a problem with it... in-house we called it the "flik-flik"... the canopy had a weird trait of wanting to repack itself. Jyro decided the pressurization problem would be fixed by cutting the little triangles in the center (closed) part of the tri-cell. Hence the EXTreme FX. Yes we were involved deeply in the development (spent very much money) on fixing some quirks with the design. (We since spent much effort to discover the real problem...) When we received the first VX files and began jumping them, we were getting pounded on openings and had huge problems with tail flutter. I made so many changes to line trim during the early VX days that i named the final lineset (yes MY lineset!) the VX C-2.3-b lineset... (I just looked on my backup and found 17 different linesets for the VX, the final being mine.) A "marketing manager" for Icarus made a decision to release the canopy against Precision's wishes, (specifically me, Chris Martin, Beezy Shaw and George Galloway). We felt that development was not complete. The canopy went to market. I was pissed! That day, after lunch with the "marketing manager", his wife, Jyro and a few others from Icarus, (they were celebrating the long awaited release), I returned to my desk and began working on the correct canopy. (And you do know that Precision started Icarus as our marketing company and even hired the "marketing manager"?) We spent over 2 years refining our canopy. I urge anyone to dissect the canopy. Notice the ribs are different, as are the surfaces. The continuous lines and use of HMA were part of our continuing education provided by the late (and great) canopy designer Klaus Schenk. The use of brass grommets... I have to give (again, the late) Dave credit with his controversial, but correct, slider rebound theory. The only part that we can take complete credit for is the absolute lack of publicity until we had a complete project. We made that mistake earlier and will never do it again. From that date forward, we will never advertise a canopy until it is complete in R&D and ready to market... just saw another manufacturer make that mistake recently. I feel comfortable saying that our Xaos is far superior to the competition's canopies... I'm not a wuffo... over 1500 jumps on EXTremes, 400+ on Velocities (sponsored too! Don't tell Bill Coe that, hehehe!) and close to 1800 on final version Xaos's. The internet is a great resource for information, but when I hear some young skydiver bark statements like you have, I must respond! Quit repeating the thoughts (sales-pitches) of others and speak your own thoughts. Someday you will speak from your own experience, in the meantime, you sound like a taperecorder. Jump more, experience the difference. I look forward to meeting you in person. We have much to discuss. I am always open to conversation with any jumper, we are family and need to be open. I have spelled out some inside information, but it is important for all jumpers to know. Now go jump our canopies. And with some experience, I task you to report back to this forum. And with your previous posts... I'll leave you to edit them as you feel appropriate. Everyone feel free to contact me directly, Chris Martin Precision Aero 423-949-4688 423-949-5174 fax [email protected] (remove NOSPAM for email) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #20 April 9, 2004 QuoteThey were still using the Icarus order form with the Icarus part whited out (well, almost) Geezus Kriste son.... that's my order form! oy! Miss-guided youth.... Chris Precision Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #21 April 9, 2004 Hello Chris, Thanks for clearing up the little history problem.Conway Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #22 April 9, 2004 Thats why there is more than one canopy company, so we can have a choice. George galloway told ME that HE made the designs called Icarus canopies and now HE made even better canopies in the fusion and synergy. HE was outwardly missleading jumpers at a certain swoop meet in 2001 when his new "designs were launching" I made a decision about his tactics then. Let every jumper jump what they want. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #23 April 9, 2004 QuoteThats why there is more than one canopy company, so we can have a choice. That's right....and because of an incident with Icarus a few years ago, I refuse to ever jump any of their products. They did something incredibly stupid, lied to me, and damn near killed me in the process. It goes both ways. That said, I jump a Precision canopy. I love it. I'm pretty much dead set on Precision and PD. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #24 April 9, 2004 Was the offending canopy built in the US? Plenty of people have gotten hurt under plenty of canopies. I personally wont buy a precision canopy. Im dead set on Icarus and PD. I will attempt to call Chris on monday to try and sort out my take on precisions tactics. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #25 April 9, 2004 QuoteWas the offending canopy built in the US? Nope. New Zealand. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
