conor 0 #1 January 20, 2004 I am interested in learning of the injury record at the pro swoop meets. I would believe that injuries among the top competitors are relatively infrequent but have no data to back up this assertion. Does anyone know roughly how many injuries (if any) were at the IPC World Cup in Sept 2003, and the extent of those injuries (severe/minor?). The same for the PST meets. Anyone know off hand any such information, or where I could get it? (The information is needed for a presentation I have to make). Thanks, CK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #2 January 20, 2004 I have no specific info to add here other than I believe you're right - injuries are infrequent. (When they occur in competition, it's mostly ankles.) I only add this because in other threads there has been speculation that most/all high-performance canopy pilots have been injured - and that is not the case. I'd be interested to hear your presentation. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #3 January 20, 2004 QuoteAnyone know off hand any such information, or where I could get it? From personal memory and not including bumps and bruises, There was one broken ankle in the qualifying rounds. Luke Akins suffered it while sliding out a landing and had his heel "catch" on a rut in the ground. Othere than that and a few bruised egos, all was good.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #4 January 20, 2004 There aren't many injuries at these events, mainly because the participants are fantastic athletes. This is not a good indication of the safety of high speed approaches in general, infortunately. Performing this kind of approach is a reasonable endeavor only when the pilot has learned and practiced for years. In most cases, they have already hit the ground enough before competing that they won't do it in front of a crowd. The real danger is to first-time competitors. Thinking that you can show up and win the first time is a very dangerous operation of ego, and can and will get people hurt. The first time you compete at one of these things, make your goal survival. Better bronze than titanium Brian Germain President Bigairsportz.comInstructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsled92 0 #5 January 20, 2004 I was afraid to ask this but, in the OUT OF THE BLUE video, does anyone know who the swooper was that was shown hitting square to the ground and if he survived. I can't believe it was shown if he didn't make it. I fast forward through that section because of that. -Grant G. p.s. Chuck and you have always giving sound advice and for that I stay tame. (Low jump#'s)_______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #6 January 20, 2004 I don't remember who it was but he did survive and was fine. Just got up and had no injuries. It was definitely scary as hell to watch though.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #7 January 20, 2004 Andy Anderson. He posts on here time to time. No major injuries from that impact. I think it was at New England...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #8 January 20, 2004 yeah, Skydive New EnglandWind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflypimp 0 #9 January 20, 2004 You are correct in assuming that their are few injuries at the top level! The reason for this is the people that are at the top were smart enough to take things slow while learning and learned the right way to do things. The key to being a good swooper is patience, common sense, and knowing when to abort a turn if it don't look right. It takes time to learn all aspects of swooping and the people that get hurt are the one's that try to skip important steps in becoming a good canopy pilot. The one's that make it to the top all have put their time in and are extremely safety conscious! Blue skies and safe swoops, Dave HebertFree Flight is the way of the future! Learn how and get on board the adventure train!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
conor 0 #10 January 20, 2004 Hi guys, Just to clarify my reason for seeking this information... I'm not looking for evidence that high performance landings are safe. I know they are extremely dangerous. However, I am trying to promote the concept of advanced canopy training. I would suggest that introducing training in this area will ultimately reduce injuries rather than increase them. Five years ago, canopy control classes were practically unheard of. Gradually the notion spread that these were a good idea. I'm just trying to spread them into my country. I would like to put forward the case that high performance landings can be done safely provided there has been adequate training and practice in a controlled environment. CK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #11 January 20, 2004 I think you're on the right track, I'd just replace the word safely with safer instead. We're all human and we all make mistakes. Sometimes no matter how much training you have things can still go wrong and bad decisions can be made. That said I certainly support the idea that there would be less injuries/fatalities with better training. Of course, that's assuming people listen to what they are taught and advised....which is a whole new problem unto itself. Good luck. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 January 20, 2004 Quoteknowing when to abort a turn if it don't look right That's the best bit of advice anyone can hear! Getting into the "I have to swoop EVERY landing" mentality WILL get you hurt/killed. That's something that was ingrained into me by more experienced folks when I was first starting to learn how to swoop. That one bit of advice has saved my ass more then a few times. When the site picture was wrong, or I'm starting a turn and the site picture looked wrong, or something just felt wrong, I'd abort the swoop and just land.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsled92 0 #13 January 20, 2004 QuoteI don't remember who it was but he did survive and was fine. Just got up and had no injuries. It was definitely scary as hell to watch though. Thank you, I hoped Jim wouldn't show a bad one. I just started with full eliptical and have yet to fly my new Comp.Cobalt (torn shoulder=work). I plan to learn carefully and practice high this summer. -Grant_______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #14 January 21, 2004 Here's some video of the incident my friend took (sound and slowmo included). Click Here Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #15 January 21, 2004 QuoteAndy Anderson. He posts on here time to time. No major injuries from that impact. I think it was at New England...Yeah. The video's floating around on the web somewhere."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazy 0 #16 January 21, 2004 QuoteHowever, I am trying to promote the concept of advanced canopy training. I would suggest that introducing training in this area will ultimately reduce injuries rather than increase them. The suggestion is fine, but i doubt that you'll get any convincing data to back it up. First it will be extremely difficult to collect a reliable and significant set of data, both for the general population, and the swoop competitors. Then, even if you get the data, there is a fair possiblilty that it would be at variance with your belief (competitors might be willing to take more risks than the average skydiver and be more prone to injuries). Advanced canopy control classes might have an effect on the safety of the landings, but there are probably other significant factors to consider, for instance personal risk assesment or fitness. Hence, there might be better ways to promote advanced canopy training than meaningless statistics.-- Come Skydive Asia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #17 January 21, 2004 Wow that was gruesome. Reminded me of an incident that did not turn out good. Andy is very lucky. I did notice his canopy was just beginning to plain out, but it was hard to tell if it actually slowed vertical speed before he hit. A hit like that could possibly kill you (if not femur or fractured vertabrae). Just depends on what breaks and if you are lucky. ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #18 January 21, 2004 Yeah man....very brutal. How he didn't kill himself is beyond me, although I'm obviously VERY happy he didn't. It still looks like he never got off the front risers until the last second and even then there doesn't appear to be any "life saving" toggle movement. I really wish he'd comment on exactly what happened so we don't need to speculate, but I'd have to assume he was fixated on his target and didn't even see the ground coming. Either way, thank god he's ok. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #19 January 21, 2004 It was already said what he did in some earlier posts. I think he was recovering (getting out of the corner) with rear risers, without much success. Or so it was said?"George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ccowden 0 #20 January 21, 2004 Man, if that was anything other than very soft sand and water..... I don't think he would have lived. That is certainly eye-opening footage of how bad a mistake can be! I am glad he walked away! You don't get to see hits like that on video much to learn from, simply because they are almost always a fatality and are not circulated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #21 January 21, 2004 ***However, I am trying to promote the concept of advanced canopy training. I would suggest that introducing training in this area will ultimately reduce injuries rather than increase them. ==================================== I agree with what you are saying, but think there is an important addition that needs to be made. All canopy trainng needs to be promoted, not just for the swoopers. Current A license training involves very little in the way of canopy information/training. Without fundamental knowledge, from day one (or at least jump number 10) how can we expect jumpers to understand the finer points of canopy flight? As previously stated in this thread, many open canopy incidents invlove low time jumpers not attempting an HP landing, simply making simple and basic errors in thier canopy flight. Additionally the culture of skydiving needs to embrace the imporatnce of EVERY jumper seeking further canopy training early on thier jumping carreer. The current emphasis on freefall skills (Skydive U, tunnel time, coaching jumps, etc.) does nothing to reinfoce the skills needed to survive the most dangerous portion of the skydive, yet the focus of most newer jumpers is on these freefall skills. The experienced jumpers, mentors and instructors need to make canopy courses "cool' and desirable to these jumpers. This attitude will then follow these jumpers through their jumping, making safer pilots later on, and, again, paving the way for future newbies to aspire to be expert canopy pilots (which is not limited to swooping, as an expert is anyone who can put it down anywhere, anytime, in any conditions). A simple and immedtiate solution would be to build this training into the licensing system. You want a 'B' license? Complete an in depth canopy control course. Simple as that. Don't want to do the training? Fine, keep your 'A' and the limitations that go aloing with it. The USPA has a reluctance to do this, stating that it makes it too difficult get the license, (I know, I've asked). My opinion is that it's the USPA's license to give out, they can make all the rules they want. The fact is that canopies and the skills needed to safely fly them have changed drastically in the last ten years. Open canpoy injuries and fatality numbers support this, yet very little action has been taken to correct this. Thats fucked up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #22 January 21, 2004 QuoteHere's some video of the incident my friend took (sound and slowmo included). Click Here Blue skies Ian That's just down right nasty (I'm glad he wasn't messed up). He never got off of the fronts. Is that the same jump (different view of course) that is used in the "Out of the Blue" movie? If not, it's looks almost identical. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #23 January 21, 2004 Yep same jump, just a different view Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skynole 0 #24 January 21, 2004 I agree with a lot of what you say, so hopefully the opening of the PD Flight-1 canopy school will lead other qualified pilots/instructors to follow suit and open up schools across the country, making them easily accessible to everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #25 January 21, 2004 QuoteI hoped Jim wouldn't show a bad one. I wish there were more shown. And more grafic descriptions of the injuries. Education and reality will do wonders to prevent other incidents.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
