Going from PD to Icarus

[Aylett2004 0]

Hey everyone,

I am currently flying a Spectre 150 and am getting really bored with it, and I want to downsize to an elliptical 9-cell. Since the canopy I think I want to eventually buy is the crossfire2, I wanted to demo one in the same size range so I don't have to downsize and learn how a fully elliptical flies at the same time.

So here's my question - does a Crossfire2 149 equate to a Spectre 150? I think I heard something somewhere that PD measures deflated and Icarus inflated, if that makes a difference. Thanks for your help.

Aylett

[skycat 0]

That is only true in the case of the Safire1 and Omega.

The Safire2, Crossfire, Crossfire2, Omni, FX, and VX are all measured the same way PD measures their canopies.

Fly it like you stole it!

[ianmdrennan 2]

I'd also try get in line for a Katana demo. The CF2 is a good canopy, and I *think* the Katana is supposed to be PD's answer to the CF2.

Should be an interesting comparison.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[bbarnhouse 0]

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I'd also try get in line for a Katana demo

I want one...I want one....

katana

[freeflydrew 0]

I *think* that the Katana is a step up from the Stiletto, inbetween the stiletto and the velocity, and probably wouldn't be the optimal canopy for this situation...

I have no idea how pd and icarus size their canopies.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I *think* that the Katana is a step up from the Stiletto, inbetween the stiletto and the velocity,

That is my understanding as well (guess we'll all see soon enough
It's my opinion that the CF2 is a step up from the stiletto so I'm not sure why you think it (Katana) wouldn't be an appropriate choice for the situation?

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Aylett2004 0]

My line of reasoning was that if I demo a CF2 at the same wingloading for several (30 or so) jumps, the only differences will be flight characteristics (turn rate, recovery arc, stall point, etc) but not speed. This would allow me to safely learn how it feels before I downsize. If I downsize. I might feel that just going to an elliptical is enough to challenge me for a while.

I have spoken to a couple really good canopy coaches who have observed my swoop landings under my spectre (please don't laugh ) and they seem to think that I could actually handle a bigger step, but I prefer not to rush it. Keep the opinions comin' please. I need all the help/advice I can get .

Aylett

[freeflydrew 0]

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It's my opinion that the CF2 is a step up from the stiletto so I'm not sure why you think it (Katana) wouldn't be an appropriate choice for the situation?

Well, I haven't flown the cf2, but had never really looked at it like a step up from the stilleto... more along the same lines, or at least the same category.

After the little conversation I've had with a couple of peeps from PD, it doesn't look like the katana is being recommended as a first time elliptical canopy because it is between a stiletto or a velocity.

I'l bet that this comparision is going to be discussed for a long time!

later broh'
-drew

[bbarnhouse 0]

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it doesn't look like the katana is being recommended as a first time elliptical canopy because it is between a stiletto or a velocity.

I certainly would agree with this statement from the discussions that I have had with PD and the test pilots.
BB

[ianmdrennan 2]

Nothing funny about swooping a Spectre, yeah they may not be the best swoop canopy, doesn't mean you can't get a decent surf out of them (and it sounds like you are!!).

My original question was posted more at Drew, but it's good to hear how carefully you're approaching this. Guess there's still a lot of mystique surrounding the Katana and where it fits into everything.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[freeflydrew 0]

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...but it's good to hear how carefully you're approaching this. Guess there's still a lot of mystique surrounding the Katana and where it fits into everything.

I agree, agree, and agree!

Have fun with the new canopy!

[ManBird 0]

The Crossfire 2 is a step up from everything that isn't crossbraced. ;)

I'd like to see more of the Katana. The videos I've seen so far aren't really selling me on it.

BTW, I actually think the Sabre2 is a step up from the Stilleto in terms of distance on a swoop. The recovery arc on the Sabre2 seems to be about 50% - 60% longer than of a Stelleto (which, I guess, isn't saying that much). It seems closer to the CF2 than the Stilleto in that respect, but not much else.

I love my Sabre2 and its hot, hot heat.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I'm not all that experienced, so take what I'm about to say with a bolder of salt. The Sabre2 is an awesome canopy, but it's not as good as my new Crossfire2.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[skybytch 259]

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The Sabre2 is an awesome canopy, but it's not as good as my new Crossfire2.

Good and better are subjective terms. It really depends on what you're looking for out of a canopy. The Sabre2 is an excellent canopy to learn high performance landings under. The Crossfire2 is an excellent canopy for those who've learned the basics of swooping and want to take it further (and are willing to accept the risks that entails).

From what I've been told the Katana will be positioned to compete with the Crossfire2... but it's not designed after the Stiletto planform.

[ManBird 0]

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I'm not all that experienced, so take what I'm about to say with a bolder of salt. The Sabre2 is an awesome canopy, but it's not as good as my new Crossfire2.

Hey, didn't imply that it was. CF2 is definitely a higher performance airfoil. I really enjoyed flying one, even at a lower W/L. My Sabre2 107 is great for wingsuit stuff. I jumped the Crossfire 2 with a wingsuit about twenty times without issue, but don't plan on doing that all the time. I can definitely see a Crossfire 2 99 (or the equivalent at the time) as my next canopy in couple years or about 400 jumps (whichever comes first).

(Edited to fix typos)

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Good and better are subjective terms. It really depends on what you're looking for out of a canopy. The Sabre2 is an excellent canopy to learn high performance landings under. The Crossfire2 is an excellent canopy for those who've learned the basics of swooping and want to take it further (and are willing to accept the risks that entails).

Leave it to the Bytch to correct guys like me. It's been commented that the Sabre2 is one of the best (if not the best) all around canopy. It was great for me teaching myself high performance landings and now I've just moved on to a Crossfire2 as my skills progressed (and yes I know I need to be smart under any canopy to avoid being an Incident Report). And then there are a number of bad ass wing suit fliers who like the performance and predictability of the Sabre2. And for sure I would not recommend a Crossfire2 to a new canopy pilot where the same may not be the case for the Sabre2.

To Manbird:

Hey I was just being a smart ass with my comments. You'll never catch me bad mouthing the Sabre2 because it was a very good canopy to me for 300+ jumps. I just like my Crossfire2 better that's all.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ManBird 0]

I didn't take it as bad mouthing at all. I agree with you. It's obvious that when you say "better", you are referring to the canopy's performance, primarily when swooping. I'm getting a nice fat swoop out of my Sabre2 (around 250 ft in no wind), and it will only get better from there. However, I wholeheartedly believe that if I was jumping a Crossfire 2 at the same wingloading for the same number of jumps, I'd have faster and longer swoops, as well as the advantages of harness input, than what I get with my Sabre2.

No two ways about, the Sabre2 is, and is designed to be, a canopy with a huge performance envelope. The Crossfire 2 is, and is designed to be, an aggressive canopy. If I could afford a second rig, I'd have a Crossfire 2 in it.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[BMFin 0]

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That is only true in the case of the Safire1 and Omega.

The Safire2, Crossfire, Crossfire2, Omni, FX, and VX are all measured the same way PD measures their canopies.

Not according to these charts

[Jib 0]

That chart says Paragear says a Spectre 210 is a 244. The website says it's a 210.That chart may not be the most reliable source of info.

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[johnny1488 1]

I wouldnt put too much faith in that chart. It listed the following:

Icarus Ext-FX74 237 74 Para Gear
Icarus Ext-FX79 253 94 Para Gear
Icarus Ext-FX84 269 84 Para Gear

the second number is said to be the area. a 74 is a 74. an 84 is an 84 but a 79 is a 94? It has a tremendous amount of inconsistences.

I have jumped original safires and safire2s omni's and xfire 1s and 2s. Anything other than a safire1 (and omega as I trust the info) flies the same size as a similar sized pd. I dont know how they measure canopies but Simon at Icarus has told me they measure the same as PD because almost everyone is going to relate size to a pd they have flown. After all they are the industry heavyweights.

As for the xfire2, I can not get enough of mine. I am swooping the crap out of it (and getting better hopefully) at a 1.35 wingloading. The range of this canopy is unserpassed by any other canopy I have jumped. I would like to jump the katana (and some stilletos for that matter) to compare but from what I have read the katana has a somewhat positive recovery arc. Not as hard as the stilletos but people have said it isnt a balls out diving canopy. It may not be what people want though. I can only attest for the unparalleled performance of my xfire2. Do yourself the favor and give it a shot.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[jazzjumper 0]

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My line of reasoning was that if I demo a CF2 at the same wingloading for several (30 or so) jumps, the only differences will be flight characteristics (turn rate, recovery arc, stall point, etc) but not speed. snip
I have spoken to a couple really good canopy coaches who have observed my swoop landings under my spectre (please don't laugh ) and they seem to think that I could actually handle a bigger step, but I prefer not to rush it. snip
Aylett

Well, you've got the right idea (demos). I'm flying a Safire 149 (and the Safires are 7% smaller in sq ft than the number). It was a blast landing at 5000 MSL (Utah), but is docile closer to sea level. I've recently demo-ed a Stilleto 135, as was way impressed with the riser pressure (lack of), instant recovery arc, and the flare performance. The long snivels are a bit much, I like a skippy opening.

I'm in line to demo a Katana 135 and 120. I'm also trying to demo a similar size Crossfire 2. Any of these will land nicely with a straight in approach at my wing loading (1.4-1.5:1), so the issue with be opening performance, harness control, riser pressure, recovery arc, and my own stupidity.

I think demoing something is the only way to go. Don't worry about taking your time, or even spending a little extra money. You can make more money, you might not be able to recover from a bad landing.

Good luck on your quest! r/Jamie

No matter how good she looks, someone, somewhere is
sick of her shit!

[Aylett2004 0]

It might be worth mentioning that my DZ is at 6000ft MSL.

[skycat 0]

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That is only true in the case of the Safire1 and Omega.

The Safire2, Crossfire, Crossfire2, Omni, FX, and VX are all measured the same way PD measures their canopies.

Not according to these charts

Hooknswoop is an Icarus dealer, so my info is from the horses mouth.

Fly it like you stole it!

[TALONSKY 0]

I e-mailed Icarus and explained that this had been talked about here and if they could give me a reply that I could post so here is Icarus's reply

The Safire-1 and the Omega are measured differently to PD canopies. As a rough guide a Safire-1 or Omega is about the same size as the next size down - eg A Safire 149 is about a 135. A Safire 119 is about a 109. Use an equation of 8%.
The Safire-2 and Omni (Omni supercedes Omega) are measured the same as
PD.

All other Icarus Canopies are measured the same as PD.

The reason for the difference is due to Precision measuring their canopies differently. Icarus have always measured the same as PD however when we originally commenced in the USA, Precision were building parachutes for us under license and were doing it using their size equations and not Icarus/PD's.

We have therefore had to wait to supercede these models to change the size equation.

Only the Safire and Omega were affected.

Blue skies
Simon

Icarus Canopies
USA: 1S671 Bender Lane, West Chicago, IL 60185, USA
Ph. (630) 562-2735, Fax (630) 231-4430
Europe: P.I. El Ramassar, c/ Vallés, s/n O8520,
Les Franqueses, Barcelona, SPAIN.
Ph. (34) 938 496 432, Fax (34) 938 497 971
www.icaruscanopies.com

[DrNo 0]

Hi Aylett
I have no experience with the crossfire but I talked to the Icarus guy in Vichy this summer to try one. I'm currently flying a stiletto 135 and I asked him to try a CF 129. He replied me that it was much too big for me as the CF canopy was designed to be flown at higher wing loadings than PD canopies. Therefore, we wanted me to try a 109, which I did not feel too comfortable to try. He told me that I would get lower performance with a CF 129 than with my stiletto 135 because these canopies were designed differently and that flying a CF at low wing loading is useless.
I think you should talk to Icarus people. Mu opinion is that if your only experience is the Specter, don't go immediately to a crossbraced but rather to the stiletto, sabre2 or safire (the one you prefer most after having tried them).

Blue sky

Dr. No