Front Riser Pressure....

[Viking 0]

Ok Weekend before last i got a chance to really mess with the front risers. I was flying a Demo Sabre2 210 loaded at 1:1. I Did a couple clear and pulls with rhino and lummy, JTval, even Cornholio and markharju joined in. Anyways, I noticed that the front riser pressure was very hi, almost to the point that i couldn't pull it down and hold it for a 180. A couple times it almost yanked out of my hand when i hit some bumpy air. Will the pressure get lighter as the loading gets higher? Or do i just need to go work out more?

I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

[johnny1488 1]

Dont know about the sabre2 so much but when I was flying my safire 209 pulling the slider down and letting the chest strap out helped a lot. Maybe not so much with the pressure but the response from the canopy was a lot better. Went from a weak 180 to a diving 360 no problem.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[Viking 0]

ever had problems with getting the riser yanked out of your hand?

I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

[rhino 0]

Yes it will get lighter as it gets smaller. Depending on canopy type also.

I had a new Xaos98 21 cell and it was extremely hard to pull on front risers at 1.9 wing loading.

My crossfire2, 97 at 1.95 "gained weight" is MUCH MUCH easier.

Answer to your question is yes.

Rhino

[andy2 0]

hey I'm still a student, but I was kinda worried about this too. I was messing around on fronts on a huge ass 260 student canopy, loaded at ~.6, and I got upset/pissed that the fronts were so freaking hard to hold, life's a bitch. At least the fronts get easier to mess with from here on out.

---------------------------------------------
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in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[ianmdrennan 2]

Couple of things to think about with fronts:

1) The faster you're going the harder it is to pull down so pulling them after turns usually doesn't work well 2) Try hanging on half brakes for a few seconds, ease up the toggles and reach for the front - should make it significantly easier to pull down.

Remember to practise up high.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Viking 0]

loose some weight you big fatass!!

I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

[AggieDave 6]

I've jumped a handful of Sabre2s (190s/170s) and found the front riser pressure to be very bareable, but then again, I'm loading those up a lot more then you are.

Oh, Sabre2s can be swoop monsters if you fly them right, or they can be very nice comfy canopies that are great for lower jump numbers, if you fly them right (and don't load them up).

ps. Viking: PM or IM me if you'd like to hear a couple interesting things about a Sabre2 (not real appropiate in a topical forum).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the recovery arc of a Sabre2 is pretty quick and it's at this time that the front riser pressure is tough. I can easily initiate a 90, 180, 270 and/or 360 front riser carve on my Sabre2 (loaded at about 1.4:1 in CO). But once the canopy starts to recover from the dive, the front riser pressure is hard to maintain. I just posted a similar comment in another thread and while I know the canopy nazis are ready to $#!& on me, I really do wish the recover arc on my Sabre2 was a little longer than it is.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rhino 0]

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hey I'm still a student, but I was kinda worried about this too. I was messing around on fronts on a huge ass 260 student canopy, loaded at ~.6, and I got upset/pissed that the fronts were so freaking hard to hold,

Just some notes someone asked me for.. Take it or leave it.. I am not recommending this to anyone in particular or any students. These are my notes so take it or leave it. Hold your flames for yourself.. lol

Do LOTS of hop-n-pops from altitude. Practice these maneuvers, build muscle memory and strength.

First. Wear gloves if you want to mess with front risers as they will tear your hands up.

I use 3 fingers, all 4 in the toggles and 3 in the front dive loops. Sometimes 4 depending on how tired I am and how tacky my gloves are that day. I do pullups constantly for strength because essentially you are doing a pullup.

If you are transitioning into using your front risers that is fine. Just make sure your slow speed flight is down pat first. Perfect flat turns and accuracy. When you start on the front risers start with the mindset that they are used to get you out of the wind. Not to swoop.

When I initially learned front risers it was to get me out of the air on really windy days under a lightly loaded canopy. It actually saved my ass once having practiced it.

Get slow speed down.. Then work on positive energy landings.

Start with simply going into double fronts BRIEFLY without a turn on landing at say 75 feet or so just to get extra energy and get used to it. "50+ jumps". After you get a feel for the speed and what the energy feels like move to 45-90 degree carves. "100+ jumps" Light 45-90 degree carves. That speed will hold you over for a while.

Remember when you start your carve allways leave yourself an out that doesn't fly you into other jumpers or an obstacle. Plan the canopy flight from start to finish. Don't wing anything. Traffic and altitude are your #1 concern. It is your job to look out for others and not to hit the ground.. If ANYTHING doesn't feel right abort and land straight in. Allways assume everyone under canopy is trying to kill you. If they can steer into you assume they will.

Fly defensively.


Rhino

[AggieDave 6]

Ok, I'm a little turned around here, did you post this problem/question in a different thread?

If you did, this is what I said:

Is your tail deflecting when you initiate any front riser movements with your toggles in your hands?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rhino 0]

Wish I could help you. I don't know a damned thing about the sabre 2??

Rhino

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Ok, I'm a little turned around here, did you post this problem/question in a different thread?

LOL ... yes the same conversation is going on in two different threads. But this thread maybe the more logical thread to carry on in.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AggieDave 6]

Ok, well for the sake of continuing in this thread (you're right, this is more of a proper thread for this conversation), I'm pasting the other post in the space below:

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Ok, I wasn't smoking crack, you did ask this somewhere else (I just asked the same question in the other thread...)

I've found with the canopies I've jumped (this is no means an end all example, this is just my personal observation and I am NOT a rigger or a kick ass swooper so take this advice as is), that if the brakes are deflecting the tail of the canopy, that it increases the riser pressure and although that doesn't technically shorten the recovery arc (which is the altitude your canopy take to recover to normal flight after releasing inputs), it makes the amount of time/distance that you're able to hold the front riser(s) down shorter due to the pressue, thus giving the appearance of a shorter recovery arc.



Alrighty, now, yall out there that are better at this then I am and know more then me, please correct me if I'm wrong (then I'll learn something new too, which is good for me

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

If I remember correctly, Hooknswoop had me do this exercise during his canopy course and it should tell me if the break lines are too short or not. I need to do a high hop n' pop and then do front riser carves with and without the toggles in my hands. If there is no significant difference in riser pressure, then the breaks are ok. But if the riser pressure is significantly harder when I'm holding my toggles, then it's time to lengthen the lines. And as I said, I did have Hook lengthen the lines a little recently. But maybe they weren't lengthen enough and it's been a while since I've done this exercise.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AggieDave 6]

You can also look up at the canopy when doing a front riser turn (up high, obviously), to see if the tail is deflecting.

The trick is to find the point that deflects the tail very little or not at all, but still leave you with your brakes set short enough that you're able to finish out your flair. You could make them nice and long, but then find you can't finish out your flair.

Rule of thumb: Don't lengthen your brakes more then 1" at a time before testing it out. (that was told to me by my rigger and it makes sense to me).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PhreeZone 15]

>Don't lengthen your brakes more then 1" at a time before testing it out.

I've got great video of me going through my lines 4 times after letting mine out 3 inches in one quick jump. The flare point was so different that it caught me unexpected and I impacted with only about a 2/3 flare.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Any of the more experienced canopy pilots out there want to have a crack at this? I really don't believe I'm dealing with break lines that are radically too short as I have no trouble whatsoever initiating my 90, 180, 270 and/or 360 front riser carves.

So here's the scenario again:

I know my canopy has a fairly quick recover arc and I have no interest in testing how low I really need to be in order to be just outside the window of being in the corner yet still being able to come out of the perfect front riser hook turn for a swoop landing. So I usually come out a little high 50-100 feet and as the canopy recovers the front riser pressure is very hard and I usually have to wait a second or so before I'm able to get back on the front risers. So is this all because of the recovery arc on the canopy or am I missing something here?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Steve, have you not done any "four second turn drills" at altitude to see exactly how much altitude you actually lose in a turn from a known starting altitude? For that matter, it does not have to be a carve at all. the same principles apply for any type of turn. Get on an easy to identify heading (like up and down the runway). Wait till you are at an even "thousand number" on your altimeter, then throw your turn until you are around as far as you intend to be on your "real" landing. One you swing through the corner and onto the horizontal plane simply check your altimeter again. The difference in the two altitudes is the altitude you need to throw your turn. Know that if you do this drill at high altitude you are going to get a larger number since the air is thinner up there. What that means is that you are automatically adding a sort of buffer for your actual landing turn. Practicing at say 3000 feet will give you a more realistic "actual" turn altitude.

Chuck

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Chuck

Thanks for the feedback. I have done what you talk of (basically my canopy usually eats up about 200 feet on a fairly aggressive 180 front riser carve). But I'm sure I could get to know the true altitudes a little better. I just found myself digging out of the corner on a jump a while back and vowed to dial back the intense-o-meter a bit (after all who wants to bounce because of a low turn). I'm definitely not a conservative canopy pilot, but I'm not an ultra aggressive one either.

I may get lucky this week and get an extra couple of days off of work. And if I do, I plan on jumping and dedicating a few jumps to canopy rides where I try to learn a thing or two more about what I don't know today.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[HCnorway 0]

Quote

Yes it will get lighter as it gets smaller. Depending on canopy type also.

I had a new Xaos98 21 cell and it was extremely hard to pull on front risers at 1.9 wing loading.

My crossfire2, 97 at 1.95 "gained weight" is MUCH MUCH easier.

Answer to your question is yes.

Rhino

I am pretty sure that canopy design has more to say on frontriser pressure than size. A Crossfire2 is much easier than a Xaos.

I jumped a Xaos27 88sqf this weekend and usually jumps my own Crossfire2 109sqf. The Xaos was much harder in general.

So you can't say that since you went from a bigger canopie (Xaos) to a smaller one (Crossfire2) and the frontriser pressure decreased, it implies that it works in general.

Just my opinion. Any other views on this?

[mnischalke 0]

I *try* do two or three practice approaches (altitude and separation permitting) on each jump. I like dumping high (4-5k) on a fairly regular basis for this very reason. Generally, if yer doin a 2-way freefly, it's pretty easy to convince your partner to break and dump higher, that way you are most likely last out, able to play and close to last down.

Back to the original topic. I have always been taught that the riser pressure has to do with canopy size, canopy shape and trim, in particular. My silhouette 210 had very light front riser pressure, but heavy rear pressure. My Lotus 170 is comfortable on both front and back, but the fronts are noticeably heavier than the Silhouette.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[raymod2 1]

Here are a few thoughts on the subject:

Riser pressure is related to the weight of the canopy pilot. If you are a fatass then you are going to have to pull harder to lift yourself up. Similarly, you can alter the apparent "weight" of the pilot through various flight maneuvers. The recovery arc is a perfect example of this. During the recovery arc the canopy is accelerating upwards. This makes the pilot "weigh" more and it will increase riser pressure. Furthermore, a shorter recovery arc translates into a stronger acceleration and more riser pressure.

Decreasing the size of the wing, in and of itself, should have no direct effect on riser pressure. However, it can have indirect effects by changing the way the canopy flies and altering the apparent weight of the pilot during various maneuvers. I imagine that canopy design can also affect riser pressure directly by moving the center of lift and changing the weight distribution between the front and rear risers.

[rhino 0]

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I am pretty sure that canopy design has more to say on frontriser pressure than size. A Crossfire2 is much easier than a Xaos.

That is what I just said. It is a combination of the 2.

[eames 0]

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That is what I just said. It is a combination of the 2.

That's a bit of a stretch....

Rhino said:

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Yes it will get lighter as it gets smaller.

To which HCnorway replied:

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...you can't say that since you went from a bigger canopie (Xaos) to a smaller one (Crossfire2) and the frontriser pressure decreased, it implies that it works in general.

Jason