Which method produces more speed for the swoop??

[rhino 0]

The Snap hook 180 into double fronts?

Or the slow harness carve not even using front risers?

Just wondering. I can't seem to even touch the speed I get from the snap hook in a harness carve.

Shoot away..

Rhino

[PhreeZone 15]

Looking at the pros its a long carving 180/270 with harness and riser input. I watched Chuck swoop his Velocity with incredible speed this way. I've got the most speed on the 4-5 second carve for a 180.

Snap anything is bad since its limiting your bail options. You can't just bail and still leave your self every option that you have on a long carve. On a long carve if you bail at the 90 your still high enough that you can turn 180 into the wind on toggles and still land ok, on a snap you've basically committed your self to the turn since even if you bail the penduilum factor keeps you from bailing clean.

Talk to some of the PD reps and I'm yet to hear any of them say anything but a 4-5 second carve on risers using the harness to make adjustments.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rgoper 0]

Rob:

i know this is a stupid question, but your brake lines are the prorer length...right? i like the 180 snap, double front approach, since that is what i learned from the beginning.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

The Snap hook 180 into double fronts?

Or the slow harness carve not even using front risers?

Just wondering. I can't seem to even touch the speed I get from the snap hook in a harness carve.

Shoot away..

Rhino

i would say you would get more speed from the snap 180, considering you said just harness, no riser.

but if you slow down the snap hook, add in some harness, and still use both risers (like pull them both down about an inch or so, then one more to the right or left, which ever you prefer, and get to where you want to be, let back up to where you had pulled both down to, and then let them both up), you will have more speed than what you'll ever get out of either one of the methods your saying.


later

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Not sure why you would do a harness turn with no riser input at all. There are people that do this, but I have found that you severly limit your ability to make turn corrections using "just the harness." Also, the current, most widely used turn at meets this year (where all entry gates for Pros are five feet tall) is a 270 from about 700 feet (assuming crossbrace here). The great majority of people were throwing harness/one riser combination turns with both hands on the front dive loops, then transitioning to rears once they had their accuracy assured. That combination gets you fast AND far.

A snap 180 to double fronts will create just as much speed, but for a shorter time. Generally speaking, as you come around the corner you will be hauling ass using both. The difference is that the corner can be much sharper in a snap turn. The snap induces more of a pendulum and it's that pendulum which creates the incredible speed you feel as you come around the corner (hopefully) and are swinging under your parachute. The problem is, after you have swung forward of your main, you scrub off speed (thus, lose distance) at a faster rate than the person who has his main straight over his head. Great examples of people to watch to see the difference are the GK RW teams here at Raeford. About half the guys on the 8-way team snap their turns and the other half carve from quite a bit higher, then transition to rears. The ones ones who snap "appear" to be faster initially, then the other guys blow right past them, going over 100 feet farther every single time. I watch this over and over, 12 times per day. It further solidifies my, and every other person on tour's opinion that "we must be doing it right." Heath Richardson (the hands-down speed king) does the exact same turn, whether it's a speed round or a distance round. The only difference is the size of the main and the amount of weight he has on.

Hey, I like to snap a turn every once in a while, but I know I am going to sacrifice distance when I do it. Landing in a tighter area is one instance when a snap to double fronts might be applicable. Still, the added safety concerns make it much more critical that you are on your game.

Chuck

[Ron 7]

I have found a carve to create MUCH more speed/distance than a snap.....

However I still snap it, because I like the whip feel.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Exactly, Ron. I don't think it really matters that one produces a different reaction than the other if you are in it for the feel. If a snappy makes you happy, then do as you please.

Chuck

[listo 0]

I have to agree. A nice, solid, smooth 270 from around 650-700 agl on my velocity 111 is resulting in some incredibly long and fast swoops. My WL is 2.1:1 and even in 10 mph winds, I have been acheiving those self satisfying speeds and distances.

The 180's are fun and they have their own little bah-zzing about them, but they don't afford the time or mechanics of a 270. With a 270, it seems like ............ahhhhhhhh ....yeahhhhh baby!

SpEeD KiLLs!
...... so Do StD's

Listo

[listo 0]

Just one more point to consider..... is there ever a swoop that was exactly like the last one. Once in a blue moon but not likely. There is always going to be a little different wind or lighting or altitude or something that will be different.

The point is to fly each swoop to its potential. The mechanics of swooping is much better understood if the focus is concentrated on flying each flight based off of what the situation is presenting rather than trying to fly a set procedure.

I think procedures tend to cause more close calls and injuries than the hook turns themself cause.

Just a thought

Listo

[flyhi 24]

Realizing there is no approved solution here, but I guess I always thought that going to doublefronts at the end of a snap was merely a salvage move on a mistimed swoop. Granted I have found myself doing it because it allowed me to snap higher and give me a cushion at the bottom, i.e. if I was on or too high, I go to the double fronts, if too low, just don't do the double fronts. I thought the safety margin it offered meant less probability of having to dig it out at the end. Empirically, that has been validated.

So which is faster, a perfectly timed snap that planes out at <5' agl or a snap to double fronts? And is the benefit worth the risk?

Either way, I intend to continue to snap to the double fronts. I like the options it gives me.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[rhino 0]

My brakes are fine.. I've been doing 180's-270's into double fronts, the way I learned.

I was approached by one of the better swoopers that I know. He gave me a light hearted warning that I am going to kill myself if I keep snapping like that, canopy folding under thing.. Plus he says that the harness turns are longer and faster than the snap and dive method.

I'm not going to disagree because I simply don't know. By the feel and sound I don't seem to get as much speed with a harness turn, even when initiated with a front riser. And the 180-270 affords me better directional control as well as altitude control. I don't know. I want to get one method down before I move onto the next.. Sometimes I apt to carve because of traffic allways seeming to end up really high on the swoop and blowing it all together.

Rhino

[Steel 0]

[Not sure why you would do a harness turn with no riser input at all. There are people that do this, but I have found that you severly limit your ability to make turn corrections using "just the harness]

Well there are a couple of reasons but first of all its important to prove it is not in anyway more difficult to hit on the dime accuracy with this method and for that just look to the left. Yes that is me kicking that ball using just my harness to manuver my way around in that 3.4 pound per square foot loaded canopy.
Now to answer why? I started doing this because I was concerned with unwanted harness imput screwing up my landing in a painful way. So my solution was to learn my harness until I knew exactly what could happen from any type of shifting in the harness and therefore knew how to imediately correct any unwanted input. After mastering this, I saw the other advantages that follow it and one is your canopy keeps its form better that way. If you watch most swoopers' canopies closely you will notice while they are turning you will see a dent in their airfoil on the side in which they are pulling the riser down on.
Does it matter? To me it does because that will add something else that needs to be corrected as the canopy recovers to normal flight. Also clearly if the airloil is closer to perfect, as it would be in an all harness turn and if the same bank is maintained for the same period of time, it would pick up more speed because of less drag. The key there is the SAME BANK for the same period of time. Because after all your speed comes from one thing and one thing only how steep your angle of descent is and for how long can you maintain it. This also means one other thing. If you do a snapping 180 turn imediately followed by hanging in you front dive loops and keep it in a dive (must be as steep as possible ofcourse) long enough you will be guaranteed to get the fastest possible speed from your approach with whatever it is your flying.
I don't do this approach because I think its too dangerous. It requires looking straight down at the ground for a longer period of time then I feel comfortable doing. I would rather do a 720 because there is more going on and less likelyhood of fixation on one point on the ground. And in the end the only thing that is giving you your speed is for how long you keep a certain angle of descent. It doesn't matter if you turning or not.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[rigging65 0]

I think physics will show you pretty clearly that a snap turn means you loose all the momentum you had going in one direction, effectively slowing to 0 mph, then picking up speed in the other direction.

A carving approach, on the other hand, allows you to keep some of the momentum you've got and simply translate it into another direction.

If you've ever worked with force vectors on paper, you can kind of visualize what I'm saying.

Of course, time and altitude play a huge role in it as well. The wing producing lift offsets some of the force of pull created by gravity, so by allowing the wing to dive you allow gravity to give you some speed. A carving turn takes more time to develop, but usually isn't as steep as a snap turn...so the real trick is getting a steep enough carving "dive" over a long enough period of time to get as much speed as possible...

Oh yeah, then you've got to time the plane out

I used to like snap turns because long carving turns started up so high that I had trouble judging when to start them. In retrospect, that was my failing, and I should have spent more time working on it.

One more note: a carving turn is generally considered safer as well. Because you are in it longer, you have more time to opt out of it and save your butt. Once you commit to a snap turn, you can't do as much, nor do you have as much time, to get out of it as you do with a carving approach.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[rhino 0]

[ianmdrennan 2]

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It is a hard call.. I just don't think I am personally ready for the carving method yet. Seems to me like I have more control and more outs in a dive.

I just spent a weekend with Scott Miller (who did a spectacular course at the local DZ) discussing these types of scenarios. A really good piece of advice I got (and spent time practicing) was a high speed carving turn. He felt all swoopers should know this maneuver so that if they needed to complete a turn to avoid obstacles, but were already in a high speed approach, they could use it without losing altitude.

He showed some video of Rickster doing the maneuver to prove it's validity. It's something I'll continue to practice so I can keep doing the sweeping turns and still have a mechanism for bailing if I need it.

Snappy hooks are fun, but once you throw those bad boys out, you are really committed to the altitude loss significantly more than if you were carving.

Either way be safe.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[rhino 0]

Do you have it on video by chance?

I'd love yo see it on video?

Rhino

[ianmdrennan 2]

I wish. It was on his laptop though and I'm kicking myself for not getting it. I'm sure if you emailed him though asking about it, he'd be happy to email it to you.

Sorry ....

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[rhino 0]

I don't know him.. Can you email him?

Rhino

[ianmdrennan 2]

Sure, I'll give it a shot. In the meantime check out PD's videos where Heath Richardson does a much more extreme version of the same maneuver. It's hard to see what he is doing but the concept is identical.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Tonto 1]

To SkymonkeyONE

I agree with all you have said.

To Rhino,

I do feel though, that many junior jumpers feel front riser is safer than snap toggle for the wrong reasons.

Judgement is required in both toggle snaps and riser carves/double fronts, and I've seen titanium rush to both in equal quantity for different reasons. On riser input the possibility of a lost toggle is very real, particularly with loops as opposed to blocks when newbies find themselves lower and faster than anticipated and fear (the mind killer) forces the release of the riser without proper conditioning. Some canopies perform poorly in turbulence on the front risers. Some... very poorly. Remember the.... Nova?

I think the clear conditions some competitions take place in, and the standard of the compertitors allow techniques which are not all day everywhere everyone techniques, and some people may not have the knowledge or the disipline to know when to say no to a particular approach. You should strive to have degrees or variances to each approach you do, a series of soft to hards bridging as many techniques as possible.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Ron 7]

Quote

This is where I am not sure I agree.. I can initiale the snap doing a quick 270, at that point I have just
gone into double fronts and am in complete directional control with front risers. I have altitude, speed,
can let up on front risers at any time and use up much more air space with the snap and dive method.

You are also a great deal more swung out from under the canopy with the snap turn....With a carve you are still mostly under the canopy. This allows you to swing out from under it much faster and with less altitude loss than the snap. Only really comes into play if you are low.

However, you can adjust the angle of the dive ALL THE TIME durring a carve hook.

Carves are safer, and produce a longer swoop...That being said, I still snap 90% of the time..I just like the way it feels.

Down sides to a carve...You really have to be able to fly your canopy to be able to fly a pattern that takes you down your lane at the right altitude at your max speed.

This is one reason I think people downsize to fast....If you can't do this, then you really can't fly the canopy you have 100%. Not even the touching the saftey aspect...but you are not getting 100% from you and the canopy.

Try it a while, see if you don't agree.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rhino 0]

Quote

many junior jumpers feel front riser is safer than snap toggle

I never said anything about toggles. I mean snap hook with a front riser. I have NEVER hooked with toggles.

[rigging65 0]

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I never said anything about toggles. I mean snap hook with a front riser. I have NEVER hooked with toggles.

I'll go ahead and stir this one up....

I use toggle exclusively for hook turns, in combination with Harness steering. There are arguments for and against toggle hooking...the biggest con is how far out it gets you from under your canopy...meaning you have to recover back through (a bad time for impact) and as you recover,you actually get in front of the canopy, which drags the tail down and slows you up...

The biggest pro to a toggle hook is that you are constantly using your toggles, which means you're always actively in control of your breaks. Sure, you can keep your toggles in your hands (and should) when using front risers, but you're not actively controlling them...what if your fingers hang up in the loops? What if your toggle slips out of those two fingers you're holding it with? What if....?

With that said, if you do a carving approach with a toggle and harness, you don't get out behind the canopy and you're in control of the toggles. You need to start it a bit lower than a Front riser carve, as you're not getting the extra drop from deflecting the nose, but other than that I think it's a superior way to carve....less overall canopy distortion is a good thing, especially on the leading edge.

Now, snap toggle turns do have the potential to by very messy, but I did them for years on my Stilettos and never ran into problems with them...but then again, I was very current (like 20-30 jumps a week on that canopy, every week). I think it really comes down to the risks you take are reduced with currency...but I'd never go back to a toggle snap-hook, as I'm not current on that style anymore and the carve is just so much better for speed and distance...not to mention it's much safer!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[rhino 0]

Fair enough..

I never do hooks with anything other than front risers. Initiating a hook with a toggle "brake" is a low energy maneuver as you are essentially stalling half of the canopy to initiate the dive. Initiating with a front riser is a high energy dive leaving 100+ percent of your braking power for reserves. If you toggle hook low and you are already in brakes your options are very limited. If you are in that toggle hook at 20% brakes you could be screwed. That same hook in front risers gives you that extra 20% energy and braking power to deal with. I notice people that toggle hook do it muck lower that those that hook with front risers. Thanks for your input.

Rhino

[rigging65 0]

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Initiating a hook with a toggle "brake" is a low energy maneuver as you are essentially stalling half of the canopy to initiate the dive. Initiating with a front riser is a high energy dive leaving 100+ percent of your braking power for reserves.

I think you're going a bit overboard by saying you're "stalling half the canopy" but I understand your point. And you're right, a front riser hook does allow you 100% of your breaks...but it also adversely effects the lift characteristics of the lifting portion of the wing (the leading edge)...which is bad ju ju when you let it out too fast and too low, and the canopy bucks while snapping back into shape.

Quote

If you toggle hook low and you are already in brakes your options are very limited.

Yes, your options are limited...but then you've already screwed up, so it's more a lack of emergency recovery than anything else (not that that's not important). If you do the hook correctly, you're off the toggle long before you need the breaks.

Similarly, if you're doing a front riser to double-front, eventually you have to come off the risers...if you time it right, you've got a solid canopy planing out...but if you don't, you've got a canopy trying to un-distort it's leading edge when you really need it to be flying. Something that I think is even worse than having only 80% of your breaks left!

Again, this comes down to a matter of currency. Any and all types of aggressive landing can be done safely, and your odds go up significantly the more current you are with the style.

Quote

I notice people that toggle hook do it muck lower that those that hook with front risers.

If they're doing a snap hook, then yes, they do...and that's an issue as it leaves you less time to recover or "get out". But if you're doing a carve with some harness input, you're way above the altitude that most ANYONE starts a snap hook at, thus my opinion about a carve being safer than a snap.

It all depends on why you're hooking. Do you want the swoop? or do you want the sensation of the snap? What you're looking for should define the style you use, because not all hooking is the same!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."