I am curious about the difference between

[Michele 1]

A hook turn and a carving turn.

Neither of them am I ready for - I still am very square in my pattern...

But I was curious about the difference between the two, when would you use one v. the other, and what are the benefits and detriments to each other than turning low...)?

Thanks, I appreciate the education!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[diveout 0]

Ah yes...

The line is fuzzy. A hook turn is a more radical maneuver. Many people us the rule of thumb that if you are beyond (above) the trailing edge of your canopy while it is in a dive you are in a hook turn, if not you are making a carving approach.

A carving turn is slower and you are less committed to it, meaning that you can make changes during your carve to the inputs on your canopy, a hook turn generally results from pulling down hard and fast on either a front riser or a toggle, although rear riser, or harness input on a teeny tiny canopy could produce the same effect.

You can carve your canopy as you are landing it -safely. If you hook turn your canopy while you are trying to land it you will likely be injured or killed. What I mean is, you can touch your foot down to a blade of grass or water or whatever as you are in the first stage of a two stage flare, and then change the direction your canopy is flying. Good pilots can easily change the direction their canopy is flying 90 degrees or more after making contact with the surface.

You make have to make a slight turn soon to avoid something weird and sudden, or off DZ one day soon, or to avoid a canopy collision at altitude. Be confident in your evasive maneuvers (it might even have to be a carving turn), just in case.

[AggieDave 6]

An easy guide, althought not the definate guide is to think of a hook turn as a pendulum (sp?). You swing out and back. Not so much in a carving turn.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Neither of them am I ready for - I still am very square in my pattern...

Michele ... a carved turn can still be done with a square pattern in mind. But also try this (at altitude once you've cleared your airspace) ... fly straight and notice what altitude you are at. Then pull down on one of your front risers enough that it starts carving a turn for 180 degrees. Then immediately look at how much altitude you've lost (giving you an idea as to what altitude not to do this sort of maneuver from). Front riser carved turns are not something to be afraid of as long as you have enough altitude to recover from. You'll likely generate some extra forward speed, but the speed will be lost come flare time if you're off the front risers high enough for your comfort levels.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TB99 0]

Also, you can generate more speed by carve turning rather than hook turning ... more speed = longer swoop. I'm not that advanced under canopy at all, but I've been able to "dig" out of situations rather easily with a carve turn because it's so smooth and you have total control ... IMO (only IMO here) carves are safer and faster for me. (I wasn't talking about carving on the ground either, that's different).

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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you can generate more speed by carve turning rather than hook turning

That depends on the canopy & wingloading.

Hook

[TB99 0]

Yea, you're right of course

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!

[alain 0]

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you can generate more speed by carve turning rather than hook turning

That depends on the canopy & wingloading.

Hook

so one what type of canopy or wing loading range a carve approach would be more efficient ? just curious...

[Hooknswoop 19]

For me, (exit wt is 187 lbs.) it seems like anything above 80 sq ft seemd to be better to carve. There are variables. Wing loading and type of canopy make a big difference.

I have played with carving turns on my VX, but I don't get anywhere near the speed as I do with an aggressive front riser turn to the doubles.

The higher the wing loading, the advantages it is to 'tuck up' and reduce drag. Same concept for collapsable PC's, the faster the canopy, the more drag a non-collaspable PC will have. Where is the magical line? How much speed loss is the person willingly to accept for not having to reset their PC every jump?

Hook

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Derek jumps a tiny little VX and I can personally vouch for the speed he obtains from a snap at roughly 1500 feet. He throws his turn, dives like a bomb, and translates that massive speed into enough horizontal speed to land his canopy very nicely. The tiny amount of riser input that would be required to modulate a controlled carve under his main would be nearly impossible to control. That being said, Derek does a fine job of landing his napkin (even at altitude I am told). This advanced technique is, of course, not recommended for the average Joe.

Chuck

[Hooknswoop 19]

I agree with The Monkey1, that for the vast majority of canopies out there and wing loadings, carving is more efficient.

Hook

[VectorBoy 0]

The tiny amount of riser input that would be required to modulate a controlled carve under his main would be nearly impossible to control. That being said, Derek does a fine job of landing his napkin (even at altitude I am told). This advanced technique is, of course, not recommended for the average Joe.
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I'm lost here, you are saying that with some really small mains it is too hard to carve a nice swoop? Is it that they are too sensitive? Glen

[D22369 0]

The tiny amount of riser input that would be required to modulate a controlled carve under his main would be nearly impossible to control


-->> what size is it and what wingloading? I jump a Fx 85 and all I do is a front carving turn usually from 90 degrees to 270 with a wingloading of 2-1, the riser gets a bit heavy after 180 degrees, but I havent noticed any controll problems, I understand that the VX flies differently than the FX. Does the VX get twitchy?

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Michele 1]

Thanks, everyone, both for the responses here as well as in pm's....I am not nearly ready for anything even remotely close to the ground, but I will start playing up high. Way up high.

The reason for this is that I was in a bad wind spot, and had no real forward motion at all. Someone suggested that I use risers, which I am scared of, and someone else suggested that instead of flat turning onto final, to slightly carve it, so as to generate some speed to penetrate the wind. As I refuse to touch front risers under 1200 (where I enter my pattern) because of the potential issues with that, I wasn't sure what he was talking about - and he disappeared before I could get better clarification.

So I came here - and again, you all have been marvelous in getting a newbie information which helps clarify it.

At this point, I think that I still need to be very cautious with the wind...but sometimes things change while we're in the air, and it's good to start learning this high up so if there comes a time wherein it's needed, I will be a bit more confident, and not sit there hoping for the best. Which is, you see, not the best choice....

Thanks, guys!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Hooknswoop 19]

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what size is it and what wingloading?

VX-60 at 3.1:1. DA was 7,900 ft today.

Hook

[D22369 0]

VX-60 at 3.1:1.


WOW, that has to be a bit......spirited in flight


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.