Student Cypres Fire

[encinoadam 0]

Yesterday, I saw a student with about fifteen jumps have her Cypres activate her reserve. She had gone through an uneventful coached jump, at which time she attempted to activate her main around 3,500 feet. She ended up with a bag-locked main. She attempted to then pull her SOS handle, but was unsuccessful in doing so. She claimed to have pulled on it with both hands, as hard as she could, but was unable to budge it. My feelings are that she may have been pulling on the webbing instead, but that is just speculation on my part. She swears that she pulled on the silver handle. She was still attempting to pull it, when at 750 feet, her Cypres fired.
No analysis has been conducted on the rig as of yet, so one could argue as to the exact cause of the hard pull on the SOS handle. She was able to pull the SOS handle after her reserve opened (while she was still in the air). When she landed, it was not immediately known that her Cypres had fired. Upon discovery of this, the student said she had "completely forgotten about" her Cypres.
I realize that AADs are a volatile subject (especially here), but here is a girl that would be dead right now, if not for her Cypres. I've always been a believer in the Cypres, and I own one myself. I'll stop short of saying that they should be mandatory, but obviously for students, I'm glad that they are (or some form of AAD). I know that there are a lot of arguments that having a Cypres could create a dependency on it. While I'm not sure if that happens or not, here is a situation where I am just about positive that the student would have died otherwise.
I've been more than a little surprised to see several new skydivers, fresh with their A license, decide not to purchase a Cypres with their rig. I completely agree that once off student status, it should be up to the individual jumper whether or not to use one. I also believe that it should be up to people whether or not they use seatbelts when they drive or helmets when they ride. But again, I am shocked when I see people who refuse to use these safety tools.
As I watched Jim Ewald's (skydiver that was paralyzed in Apple Valley in 1996, who died two weeks ago of a heart attack) ashes spread in the air last week, it occurred to me that he also may have been saved by a Cypres or some other AAD (he went low for a student that did not pull). I have 200 jumps and have been jumping for a year and a half. I know that isn't much. But I have never seen anyone complain of an unwarranted Cypres fire. I'm not looking to spark a bunch of vicious debate about this (remember, I said they should still be optional), but if you insist, I can handle it. If you don't want to own or use a Cypres, it's okay by me. But, I've seen all I need to see to know what a valuable tool it is.
Adam

[diverdriver 5]

So you are saying that the main was still trailing when the reserve came out? There some rigs that you can pull the reserve handle and go through cypres firing and not know who beat who. Reflex, Vector, Racer, and possibly others have the cypres cutter installed in such a way that you can be pretty sure if the jumper beat the cypres activation or not. Javelin, and others have the cutter mounted in a way that you could pull your reserve handle, start activation, and then snivel through cypres fire and you will not know if the jumper beat the cypres activation or not.

Do you have the info on the type of container?

Chris

[ltdiver 3]

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There some rigs that you can pull the reserve handle and go through cypres firing and not know who beat who... Javelin, and others have the cutter mounted in a way that you could pull your reserve handle, start activation, and then snivel through cypres fire and you will not know if the jumper beat the cypres activation or not.

Chris,
Interesting information you provided here.

I personally saw a Javelin container in the loft last week that the skydiver -had- activated the reserve and then the Cypres fired as the canopy sniveled open. How was this determined by the rigger? The cut reserve closing loop was still in the packing tray.

The rigger explained that he had only seen this twice in his career as a rigger, and that he could guarentee that the skydiver had beat the Cypres fire. Otherwise the freebag would have taken the loop out of the tray during deployment.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[bobsled92 0]

I agree that AAD are excellent!
I feel that "Less then C lic. should be required to have it and I like DZ that require them.
D.O.T. requires airbags in cars of recent models.
When I came off student status and wanted to buy my 1st rig, I was trying get get money for a used one with a cypres and my jump master bought it before I had the cash.>>>>>He didn't what to pay for the AAD($800) & had the guy remove it.
One week later it was up for sale again once the investigation was closed.
He bounced 4feet off the ground in front of his entire family(grand children and all).
He was wealthy too and owned a radio station.
He pulled @ 100ft(his 1st BOC).
Clement was very safe and detailed with my progression.
I wish he kept the Cypres and we could have kept him.
-Grant

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[billvon 2,772]

>When she landed, it was not immediately known that her Cypres had
> fired.

It seems unlikely that she could land towing a baglocked main without anyone noticing. If the main had been cut away, she was indeed successful in pulling her SOS. (Unless the risers released without activating the reserve, which is a double gear failure; RSL and reserve cable.)

>I realize that AADs are a volatile subject (especially here), but here
> is a girl that would be dead right now, if not for her Cypres.

I think just about everyone is 100% behind mandatory cypreses for students.

>But, I've seen all I need to see to know what a valuable tool it is.

I agree here too. One of the hard parts about skydiving is watching another experienced jumper make foolish (sometimes fatal) decisions about gear, advancement, types of flying - and realize that you sometimes just have to let them do it, while hoping the mistake they make isn't fatal.

[encinoadam 0]

The Container:
The container was an old Rapid Transit, with either a PD 210 or PD 230 (probably a 230). This reserve on this container is a two pin system. When I looked at it, one of the loops had been cut, and the other was missing altogether (presumably also cut).
SOS-Pull:
Apparently, there is some debate at the DZ as to whether or not she beat the Cypres. In case I was unclear, she did not land with the bag-locked main trailing her. She was able to pull the SOS-handle, but whether or not she pulled it just before or just after the Cypres fire is unknown at this time. Technically, a bag-locked main should not block a Cypres-deploying reserve - but again, I don't know this to be the case.
Mandatory Cypres:
Also, I don't believe that DZs should ever require a Cypres. It is too easy for people who truly don't want one to fake that they have a Cypres (i.e., use one that is older than 12 years old, one that is broken, one with no batteries, one that is not turned on). I don't believe that any licensed skydiver should be forced to use one. I am just amazed at the number of people who don't. I don't like the idea of "Big-Brother" and am annoyed that people are given tickets for driving without seatbelts "for their own good." I think children should be required to wear seatbelts, just like student skydivers are required to use an AAD, because they aren't qualified to make that type of decision yet. Once they are 18... or off student status, they should be allowed to live their lives as they see fit. Just my thoughts.

[lippy 882]

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I think just about everyone is 100% behind mandatory cypreses for students.

Just curious Bill, do you mean Cypres specifically, or just some kind of AAD, (FXC 12000). In the 4 DZs I know in Alberta, one of them has a student Cypress on one rig, and the rest are 12000s. I agreee that Cypreses would be better, but they just aren't economically feasable in a lot of cases.

I got nuthin

[Michele 1]

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Upon discovery of this, the student said she had "completely forgotten about" her Cypres.

Well, I can understand that. I remember with my cutaway, when I landed Vinnie asked me "why didn't you wait for your Cypres to fire", to which I replied "uh, I forgot about it. I was busy pulling handles...". He was kidding, of course, but the point I'm trying to make is "forgetting about it" may be exactly what happened.

In any event, what a thing to happen at her jump numbers (well, any jump numbers, for that matter...)! Really glad she's o.k. and still with us. How's she doing? That's got to be frightening.
Has there been any update as to what happened in the first place? I'd be curious to know.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[alan 1]

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He pulled @ 100ft(his 1st BOC).
Clement was very safe and detailed with my progression.
I wish he kept the Cypres and we could have kept him.

As a jumpmaster, if he had been as safe and detailed in his own progression to a BOC, you would still have him as well. The CYPRES, while a valuable safety device, is not a substitute for proper training.

alan

[Chief 0]

I have a Cypress and simply forget about it after I turn it on each day. Not a dependent type thing, more like an air bag in the car. You forget both are there until they work. Just my minor opinion. Stay safe.

[Gravitymaster 0]

I have a Cypress and simply forget about it after I turn it on each day. Not a dependent type thing, more like an air bag in the car. You forget both are there until they work. Just my minor opinion. Stay safe.

__________________________________________________
Possibly true in most situations. However you need to remember you have a cypres. If you find yourself at 1600' would you go for the main or reserve? Why?

[Casch 0]

Go for the reserve because at that height you don't know if your main will be fully open or slow you down enough to avoid triggering the cypress and you don't even want to mess with the dangers of a two out situation.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Go for the reserve because at that height you don't know if your main will be fully open or slow you down enough to avoid triggering the cypress and you don't even want to mess with the dangers of a two out situation.
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I agree 100% with your answer. Would your answer change if you didn't have a cypres?

[billvon 2,772]

>If you find yourself at 1600' would you go for the main or reserve?
>Why?

You should go for your reserve; you will go for your main. You have practiced pulling your main hundreds or thousands of times when you get low; most people have never touched their reserve handles in freefall. If you get low you will go with the instinctive reaction. Given that, CRW training is a very good idea; it will help you deal with a two canopy out situation.

[billvon 2,772]

> Just curious Bill, do you mean Cypres specifically, or just some
>kind of AAD, (FXC 12000).

Any kind of AAD really. The cypres is about the only one that's really black and white in terms of safety. I can remember getting off student status, being happy that I could finally disconnect the Sentinel AAD that had misfired on me once already.

[billvon 2,772]

>She was able to pull the SOS-handle, but whether or not she pulled it
> just before or just after the Cypres fire is unknown at this time.

If that's the case, I'm not sure I'd call it a cypres save. I've had one student just beat their cypres (it was one of their first jumps after graduation) and one friend just beat hers as well. In both cases they pulled the handle just before the cypres fired, as evinced by the cutter firing but no loop being cut. I don't consider either one to be a true save; they would have survived even without the cypres. Note than on some rigs, the cypres will cut the loop even if the reserve was deployed before the cypres fired.

> Technically, a bag-locked main should not block a Cypres-deploying
> reserve - but again, I don't know this to be the case.

It might or might not. It's one of the worst mals to have with a cypres, since it _will_ activate the cypres (unlike a lineover on a 230 sq ft canopy) and the reserve might entangle with the trailing main.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You should go for your reserve; you will go for your main.

Absolutely correct. I watched a 3 way break at about 1200 ft (ish), and track. All 3 went for their mains. The one Cypres on the the 3-way fired.

Hook

[MrHixxx 0]

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Mandatory Cypres:

Also, I don't believe that DZs should ever require a Cypres. It is too easy for people who truly don't want one to fake that they have a Cypres (i.e., use one that is older than 12 years old, one that is broken, one with no batteries, one that is not turned on).

I would just like to add that it maybe easy to not turn on your Cypres. However, getting a rigger to install a non-functioning unit is another matter. If the Cypres is not functioning with indate batteries, I am not putting it in. You can lose your certificate over that one (not to mention your reputation).
I also believe in a Cypres. I haven't jumped without one since my son was born.

-Jon

death,as men call him, ends what they call men
-but beauty is more now than dying’s when

[bobsled92 0]

I agree with your point.
My point is: " Complacency KILLS".
My Dad always told me that and it always showed true.
One of my Dad's men felt he was going to take out a sniper and felt that he was better. His thumb exploded after making the statement(while looking through his scope) and he returned fire & hit his mark.
He WAS better but, only by *** 1/4 of an inch***.
I only have one cut-away and never intend to use my AAD but, I owe it to my children & I to have one.
(and I never want to be right by only 1/4")

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[Gravitymaster 0]

You should go for your reserve; you will go for your main.
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Possibly, however that isn't my point. My ppoint was that you can't just turn your cypres on and forget it's there. Perhaps a change of scenario will help: Suppose you are in an aircraft tha develops engine trouble at 1600'. The pilot scream "Get the F*** out NOW". If you had a cypres, would you go for your main, knowing a snivel could cause your cypres to fire or would you just go for your reserve.
How about if you didn't have a cypres? Would you change your emergency procedures? If so why? If not, why not?

[skygod7777 0]

that's weird, a student at my dz had a cypress fire yesterday also. strange.

later

[billvon 2,772]

>If you had a cypres, would you go for your main, knowing a snivel
> could cause your cypres to fire or would you just go for your reserve.

If I had a snively main, I would go out on my reserve. If I had a fast-opening main I'd exit on my main. That's pretty independent of whether I had a cypres or not.

[Gravitymaster 0]

If I had a snively main, I would go out on my reserve. If I had a fast-opening main I'd exit on my main. That's pretty independent of whether I had a cypres or not.
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So you are of the mind a cypres makes no difference in your emergency procedures at all?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I think of my Cypres as something which will be used if/when I am physically unable to activate my main or my reserve (ie: being knocked out). I've yet to find myself in this predicament, but if I'm at or near the hard deck with nothing above my head, I'm going for my reserve. My main (a Triathlon) is a sniveller and I won't have time being on the hard deck at 1500'.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[skymick 0]

I know over here in Australia, you must have an AAD until you have your C license (100 jumps) as of Dec 1st it will be until you have your D license. If you have a D and no AAD you must hav an RSL until your E license (500 jumps)