khtov 0 #1 January 21, 2002 Is there any sense in attaching small loops to the rear risers, maybe to their front side, so it would be easier to grab them to perform rear riser swoop?Did anyone try this type of riser upgrade, or is it too complicated? Safe swoopsAndrew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #2 January 21, 2002 The rear riser pressure isn't heavy enough to need loops. Plus it would take longer to grab the loops than just grab the riser. William Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #3 January 21, 2002 For a rear riser swoop, you want to apply pressure outward or downward and smoothly transition to the toggles. Loops would not allow for a smooth trasition. Do a Search in the Gear or Saftey areas for a Post from SkymonkeyONE aka Chuck Blue to get more details on the finer points of rear risers in extreme swoops, but loops or anything to snag on is bad juju on the rear risers. Unless you are a pro swooper needing every inch of a swoop, rear riser flares are pushing the limits of canopy flight. An easier way to increase the swoop is to upgrade to a better canopy, ie a cross braced, airloccked or a high effecency canopy ie a cobalt,space, alpha, BT.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #4 January 21, 2002 Some people do pull down on the rear risers but I still don't think loops would help.William Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
khtov 0 #5 January 21, 2002 Thank you for the information.Very helpful indeed.Andrew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #6 January 21, 2002 May I suggest rear riser blocks?When you come screaming through the first gate, things are happening very fast and margins for error are tiny, so it helps to have three different sets of handles that feel different, so you can identify and grab them by feel without having to shift your eyes "inside the cockpit."Most front riser dive loops are made of Type 17 webbing. Most steering toggles are made of 1" wide Type 4 tape. The challenge is to find a material that feels totally unlike the other two. Maybe the answer is Type !7 - or something wider - blocks wrapped around the rear risers.Airplane manufacturers learned this lesson decades ago, which is why the flap handle feels like a tiny flap and the wheel retract handle feels like a tiny wheel and the throttle knob feels totally unlike the other two.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #7 January 21, 2002 I think the biggest value would be on those long spots, the one's where you're hanging off the rear risers from opening until landing. I know my hands usually feel like they're about to fall off...I guess this is balanced by those that would use them during swoops, and it seems that would be a bad thing..._Am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #8 January 21, 2002 According to John LeBlanc, you are better to use your brakes on long spots then you are your risers. You just have to find the sweet spot to get the lift that you other wise will not get from the risers.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #9 January 21, 2002 Is that documented/explained on paper/web somewhere? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #10 January 21, 2002 Check in the siminar section on PD's website. John explained it really well at a siminar I sat in on over Christmas. All his siminars were on the PD site last I looked.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #11 January 22, 2002 Fom my experience, it depends on the canopy you are flying. PD canopies seem to better in brakes. Icarus canopies seem to do better on rear risers.William Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #12 January 23, 2002 To the original poster:do a search in this forum and the old safety and training forum and you will find all you need to know about rear riser swooping. You really don't need to be adding rear riser loops. The odd, long spotted float back to the dz might make them seem worth it, but for swooping, you are best off with as few new working parts as possible. It is for that reason that I am ditching my long-time favorite third risers so that I may better "feel" for my rear risers.ChuckMy webpage HERE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
axe96bam 0 #13 January 24, 2002 I agree that loops on the rear risers can cause you to grab the wrong set at the wrong time and lead to an accident. I usually just soread my rear risers when I am getting back from a long spot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skynole 0 #14 August 21, 2003 I wanted to bring up this old thread up again because I have been thinking about this. I agree that loops would be a very bad idea, but like riggerrob mentioned, something along the lines to make the rear risers more "gripper-friendly". Personally, I'm not so concerned about having a different feel so I don't accidentally grab the wrong input (though that is a valid point), but mainly having something placed on the top 1/3 of the rears to make them a little more "gripper-friendly", especially for mini-risers. Does anyone know of any mods that have been done or any plans for mods of this type? Any ideas? Some CReW dogs I know wrap heavy-tape (like Duct or surgical) around a few times at the top third of both their front and rear risers to add bulk for easier gripping. Though, this in particular is something I personally wouldn't consider doing, something along these lines is what I am thinking of. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #15 August 22, 2003 QuoteFor a rear riser swoop, you want to apply pressure outward or downward and smoothly transition to the toggles. Loops would not allow for a smooth trasition.[\reply] How do you do this transition, I thought you can flare with risers..."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #16 August 26, 2003 mee too chuckie! loose the thirds...... but i always will have a place in my heart for them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #17 August 26, 2003 if you try to flare with your rear risers with a high performance canopy it is likely you will creat a high speed stall while travaling at high speed .... ouch!!!..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AiRpollUtiOn 0 #18 August 26, 2003 WHY? When using rear risers you are deforming your canopy a lot less than when you apply only toggles, certainly in the final part where you`re already bringing `em fairly low. So basically when you stay off the toggles, using only the risers you should have a better airfoil above your head, thus be less likely to stall. I don`t know nuthin` so I might be wrong Please explain me why I`m supposed to be wrong! If there were a [dumbass] smiley I`d use it now!"Don't make me come down there" - God. My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #19 August 26, 2003 The issue is a rear riser flare is much more sensitive to input then toggles are. A slight pull too much and you stall the entire canopy while still screaming across the ground. Most swoopers are doing rear riser plane outs then transitioning to toggles for the final shutdown.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AiRpollUtiOn 0 #20 August 28, 2003 Phreezone, I think I sort of agree, sensitivity is an issue, but to which extent (I try to look at it not only theoretically but also trusting on common sense of the guy/girl performing the superdooperswooperd). I mean, if you`re doing back riser plane outs, swoops and/or entire landing sequences, I must presume that you know your canopy and are aware of this higher sensitivity. Therefore I think that it is possible that you will give too much input, but I think it is very unlikely that this overimput will be to such an extent that you will develop a high speed stall. Imagine what an increase of AoA you need for the airflow to detach from the boundary layer. I wonder if at high speed a canopy will buffet as well (please leme know if U know) It`s much more likely that you will balloon back up and automatically get of your rears with a sad face because at this point your surf is already looking like a kitesurf with a high jump (but way less cool :p ). Propably the odds of you stalling the canopy is equally high when you`re on toggles. I`ve flown quite a few different airfoils (not only parachutes, some had power, even jet power) and out of experience I know that high speed stalls aren`t easy to induce on non-critical airfoils (such as parachutes), they`re built to fly, not to fall out of the sky. But then again I`m not really speaking out of skydiving experience here, never seen a parachute make a high speed stall, or felt mine do anything funny like this. Has anyone seen this and what does it look like??? Video would be great, to get knowledge and to get a good laugh (if the guy/girl stands up afterwards that is)"Don't make me come down there" - God. My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AiRpollUtiOn 0 #21 August 28, 2003 Just occured to me, it could very well happen if you`re too low-too fast-would pull anything to plane out before *SMACK* But hey, in this case this changes nothing to the situation that: A) same thing will happen on toggles. B) you`re eating dirt."Don't make me come down there" - God. My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #22 August 28, 2003 High speed stalls not only "can" happen, they do happen on plenty of occasions when people are learning to rear-riser their landings. Thankfully, the great majority happen at altitude during practice. Want to see some video of high speed stalls? Look for video of Andy Farrington piling into the pond and losing both of his shoes at the Fantasy of Flight meet two years ago. Want another? Look at Joe Bennet's at the November 2002 swoop meet at ASC. Pull down to hard on your rears, or hold them too long while having them slightly pulled down too far, and you are going to lose your canopy incredibly fast. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites twnsnd 1 #23 August 28, 2003 My concern is that someone would become accustomed to rears to the point of using them to dig out of a low turn and stalling at a high rate of speed and possibly still in the dive.-That is a great runon sentence.- -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skynole 0 #24 August 28, 2003 Quote Has anyone seen this and what does it look like??? Video would be great, to get knowledge and to get a good laugh (if the guy/girl stands up afterwards that is) Just this past weekend actually I was jumping w/ a friend who was trying a belly camera mount for the first time. As he is on his rears during his swoop you can clearly see the back of the canopy stall for a second but nothing to laugh at because he quickly recovered with his toggles and stood it up. The canopy pretty much fills up the screen from the belly mount perspective and it's easily to tell what happens. He still had a good deal of speed as he is easing his rears down (not digging by any means...) and you see the tail of the canopy surge under itself for a split-second. I think I might have firewired that footage so if I have it I'll post it. BTW, since this thread kind of went on a tangent, does that mean that no-one has anything to say about the original post I made about bringing this old thread up again.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #25 August 28, 2003 Throw Dive blocks on the rears if you need more gripping. Personally I've never had an issue on giser grabs on any of my canopies including my Lightning...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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marks 0 #16 August 26, 2003 mee too chuckie! loose the thirds...... but i always will have a place in my heart for them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #17 August 26, 2003 if you try to flare with your rear risers with a high performance canopy it is likely you will creat a high speed stall while travaling at high speed .... ouch!!!..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AiRpollUtiOn 0 #18 August 26, 2003 WHY? When using rear risers you are deforming your canopy a lot less than when you apply only toggles, certainly in the final part where you`re already bringing `em fairly low. So basically when you stay off the toggles, using only the risers you should have a better airfoil above your head, thus be less likely to stall. I don`t know nuthin` so I might be wrong Please explain me why I`m supposed to be wrong! If there were a [dumbass] smiley I`d use it now!"Don't make me come down there" - God. My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #19 August 26, 2003 The issue is a rear riser flare is much more sensitive to input then toggles are. A slight pull too much and you stall the entire canopy while still screaming across the ground. Most swoopers are doing rear riser plane outs then transitioning to toggles for the final shutdown.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AiRpollUtiOn 0 #20 August 28, 2003 Phreezone, I think I sort of agree, sensitivity is an issue, but to which extent (I try to look at it not only theoretically but also trusting on common sense of the guy/girl performing the superdooperswooperd). I mean, if you`re doing back riser plane outs, swoops and/or entire landing sequences, I must presume that you know your canopy and are aware of this higher sensitivity. Therefore I think that it is possible that you will give too much input, but I think it is very unlikely that this overimput will be to such an extent that you will develop a high speed stall. Imagine what an increase of AoA you need for the airflow to detach from the boundary layer. I wonder if at high speed a canopy will buffet as well (please leme know if U know) It`s much more likely that you will balloon back up and automatically get of your rears with a sad face because at this point your surf is already looking like a kitesurf with a high jump (but way less cool :p ). Propably the odds of you stalling the canopy is equally high when you`re on toggles. I`ve flown quite a few different airfoils (not only parachutes, some had power, even jet power) and out of experience I know that high speed stalls aren`t easy to induce on non-critical airfoils (such as parachutes), they`re built to fly, not to fall out of the sky. But then again I`m not really speaking out of skydiving experience here, never seen a parachute make a high speed stall, or felt mine do anything funny like this. Has anyone seen this and what does it look like??? Video would be great, to get knowledge and to get a good laugh (if the guy/girl stands up afterwards that is)"Don't make me come down there" - God. My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AiRpollUtiOn 0 #21 August 28, 2003 Just occured to me, it could very well happen if you`re too low-too fast-would pull anything to plane out before *SMACK* But hey, in this case this changes nothing to the situation that: A) same thing will happen on toggles. B) you`re eating dirt."Don't make me come down there" - God. My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #22 August 28, 2003 High speed stalls not only "can" happen, they do happen on plenty of occasions when people are learning to rear-riser their landings. Thankfully, the great majority happen at altitude during practice. Want to see some video of high speed stalls? Look for video of Andy Farrington piling into the pond and losing both of his shoes at the Fantasy of Flight meet two years ago. Want another? Look at Joe Bennet's at the November 2002 swoop meet at ASC. Pull down to hard on your rears, or hold them too long while having them slightly pulled down too far, and you are going to lose your canopy incredibly fast. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twnsnd 1 #23 August 28, 2003 My concern is that someone would become accustomed to rears to the point of using them to dig out of a low turn and stalling at a high rate of speed and possibly still in the dive.-That is a great runon sentence.- -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skynole 0 #24 August 28, 2003 Quote Has anyone seen this and what does it look like??? Video would be great, to get knowledge and to get a good laugh (if the guy/girl stands up afterwards that is) Just this past weekend actually I was jumping w/ a friend who was trying a belly camera mount for the first time. As he is on his rears during his swoop you can clearly see the back of the canopy stall for a second but nothing to laugh at because he quickly recovered with his toggles and stood it up. The canopy pretty much fills up the screen from the belly mount perspective and it's easily to tell what happens. He still had a good deal of speed as he is easing his rears down (not digging by any means...) and you see the tail of the canopy surge under itself for a split-second. I think I might have firewired that footage so if I have it I'll post it. BTW, since this thread kind of went on a tangent, does that mean that no-one has anything to say about the original post I made about bringing this old thread up again.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #25 August 28, 2003 Throw Dive blocks on the rears if you need more gripping. Personally I've never had an issue on giser grabs on any of my canopies including my Lightning...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
