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Baksteen

Seatbelt pictures

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I would like to have a few pictures of seatbelts for jumpers to compare.

1) Can someone post a picture of seatbelts, as installed in Rook's planes?
I was very impressed with the convenience of these, but unfortunately forgot to take a picture.

2) Could people post pictures of the seatbelt system in the 182 at their DZ and tell me why these are convenient - or not?

Thanks in advance!
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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Baksteen

I would like to have a few pictures of seatbelts for jumpers to compare. Could people post pictures of the seatbelt system in the 182 at their DZ and tell me why these are convenient - or not?



Attached picture is typical of how the 3 rearmost jumper seatbelts are installed following one of the STCs that USPA sells for the C182. This arrangement has been installed in many airplanes. They are reasonably convenient. The jumper in front uses the existing seatbelts.

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How is the seating configuration in that case?

From the picture my guess would be:
one goes with the back against the bulkhead, facing forward.
one goes with the back against the pilot seat, facing backwards. (right-hand side in your picture)
The jumper in front is facing backwards, with his back against a metal plate screwed in front of the control panel (or sitting very carefully to avoid shifting the lever for the cabin heat, or worse).

How does the last jumper sit? In your picture that would be the left-hand side nearest to the photographer. Does he sit with his back to the side panel, or does he sit without back support? Facing front of facing back?

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IJskonijn

How does the last jumper sit? In your picture that would be the left-hand side nearest to the photographer. Does he sit with his back to the side panel, or does he sit without back support? Facing front of facing back?



It varies depending on the size of everyone and how good they are at placing their body in a way that gives this person the most comfortable position. Usually facing either forward or backward. I have never seen anyone sit sideways.

Quote

One goes with the back against the bulkhead, facing forward?



That, or they can turn enough to place their feet up on the left side of the airplane so that the person behind the pilot facing rearward can put their legs under them. (This works very well to save room.)

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For pictures of tag-line belts (sewn by Hooker Harness) see Annette O'Neil's 4th article about seat-belts on the dropzone.com home page.
Hooker belts are also referred to as "single-point skydiver restraints," etc. They bolt to one original seat-belt fitting - on the floor - and wrap around the jumper's harness hip joints

Sadly, original seat-belt anchors in single-engined Cessnas are poorly placed to anchor skydivers. We normally seat all skydivers facing aft: one tandem pair behind the pilot's seat and another tandem pair leaning against the co-pilot's instrument panel. If the Cessna is large enough (205, 206 or 207) to accommodate a third tandem pair, they sit farther aft on the right side (from the pilot's perspective.

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peek

***How does the last jumper sit? In your picture that would be the left-hand side nearest to the photographer. Does he sit with his back to the side panel, or does he sit without back support? Facing front of facing back?



It varies depending on the size of everyone and how good they are at placing their body in a way that gives this person the most comfortable position. Usually facing either forward or backward. I have never seen anyone sit sideways.

Quote

One goes with the back against the bulkhead, facing forward?



That, or they can turn enough to place their feet up on the left side of the airplane so that the person behind the pilot facing rearward can put their legs under them. (This works very well to save room.)

In my wingsuit, I set sideways in the rear as a normal practice. I am 6'1" but I can sit sideways without extra effort and it gives others more room. My back is to the exit door side, allowing anyone that is seated behind the pilot to put their feet under my knees if they need to stretch out.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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IJskonijn

How is the seating configuration in that case?

From the picture my guess would be:
one goes with the back against the bulkhead, facing forward.
one goes with the back against the pilot seat, facing backwards. (right-hand side in your picture)
The jumper in front is facing backwards, with his back against a metal plate screwed in front of the control panel (or sitting very carefully to avoid shifting the lever for the cabin heat, or worse).

How does the last jumper sit? In your picture that would be the left-hand side nearest to the photographer. Does he sit with his back to the side panel, or does he sit without back support? Facing front of facing back?



We had this setup in a 182 that I jumped out of a bunch of times.

Your guesses are pretty close. We had a wood backrest for the "#1 student" spot. It protected both the dashboard/controls and the jumper's rig.

The "J/M" spot (what you call the "last jumper") could either sit facing back, between the legs of the "#1 student", kneel facing forward or sit facing forward, leaning back on the jumper against the rear bulkhead. In any case, the belt was usually threaded through the legstraps, because there really wasn't anything to keep the jumper from sliding out from under the belt.

Since nobody has answered your first question, I'll give it a shot. Oops. Riggerrob answered it and I didn't see that.

You mention "Rook's plane". I guess you mean Skydive Chicago's Otters. I'm also going to guess you were at the International meet.
Keep in mind that those weren't all SDC's planes. Skydive Midwest's Otter (203SF) was there too. Not a big issue, because it has the same setup as SDC's.

Those are single point "Hooker" belts.

There's a nice writeup on them in Annette O'Neill's article on seatbelt use. It's covered in part 4.

I don't have a pic, and I couldn't find anything with a quick Google search.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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riggerrob

For pictures of tag-line belts (sewn by Hooker Harness) see Annette O'Neil's 4th article about seat-belts on the dropzone.com home page.
Hooker belts are also referred to as "single-point skydiver restraints," etc. They bolt to one original seat-belt fitting - on the floor - and wrap around the jumper's harness hip joints

Sadly, original seat-belt anchors in single-engined Cessnas are poorly placed to anchor skydivers. We normally seat all skydivers facing aft: one tandem pair behind the pilot's seat and another tandem pair leaning against the co-pilot's instrument panel. If the Cessna is large enough (205, 206 or 207) to accommodate a third tandem pair, they sit farther aft on the right side (from the pilot's perspective.



Yes, the 'seatbelts'-series of articles was very welcome. It is very convenient that Anette is practically handing us all the necessary research on a silver platter, just as we are starting to look into the seatbelt issue.

But I imagined that a 182 is a different animal than bigger planes.
Also, we use two different ways of loading:

SL-students are positioned "around the strong point", while freefallers are positioned so that they have the most room (see the rather amateurish attachment).

It would seem to me that only one Hooker seatbelt configuration would be necessary for both methods. Whether those could use the existing "factory" attachment points I do not know.
The only thing I'd wory about is the seatbelt somehow entangling with the static line, which is attached in the middle of the aircraft.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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wolfriverjoe


You mention "Rook's plane". I guess you mean Skydive Chicago's Otters. I'm also going to guess you were at the International meet.
Keep in mind that those weren't all SDC's planes. Skydive Midwest's Otter (203SF) was there too. Not a big issue, because it has the same setup as SDC's.

Those are single point "Hooker" belts.



I did.:)I wasn't at the IM, but saw SDC's planes (two otters and a Supervan) at a Sebastian Spring Fling. There was also an otter there with side benches and over-the lap seatbelts. The latter was quite annoying, because everyone had to have the exact right male and female connector or stuff wouldn't clip together (there were usually more available seatbelts then jumpers on board).
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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First, all the seat-belt buckles should be the same type. IOW only one type of belt buckle throughout the airplane.

Secondly, pair them. Bolt a female buckle, then two male buckles together, then two female buckles together, then two male buckles together and repeat along the bench.

Colour-coding can also help: red male and female belts for the first person, then orange belts for the second person, yellow belts for the third jumper, etc.

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In our C182 (Baksteen and me are from the same DZ), nobody is sitting against a cargo door. The closest person to the door is the jumpmaster, who has the door on his left side. The other door is on the pilot-side of the plane. Behind the pilot are no more doors.

I agree in general that sitting leaning against a door is asking for trouble.

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The "Baggage" door is on the pilots side just ahead of the rear bulkhead on every 182 I've ever jumped from. That's right about where the bottom of the container is on the rear most jumper in both of those diagrams.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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DBCOOPER

The "Baggage" door is on the pilots side just ahead of the rear bulkhead on every 182 I've ever jumped from. That's right about where the bottom of the container is on the rear most jumper in both of those diagrams.



The pic in post #2 shows the door (sort of).

It's on the right, and it looks just like another bulkhead panel. But you can see the two hinges on the seam.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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DBCOOPER

The "Baggage" door is on the pilots side just ahead of the rear bulkhead on every 182 I've ever jumped from. That's right about where the bottom of the container is on the rear most jumper in both of those diagrams.



Not on the plane Baksteen is talking about (PH-TGC).
Just two doors are accessible from the inside, one for the pilot (on the left front) and one on the opposite side (right front).
So only the pilot and the jumpmaster are sitting next to a door, both are not leaning against it.

There may be a door behind the rear bulkhead (which looks like it may have been added later)

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I found a picture that (I think) shows the door you are talking about.
I still think it is not accessible from the inside, but I will check this next saturday. Because I do agree, sitting against a door with a container may not be the best idea ever.

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Only the skinniest of skydivers could exit through the baggage of most single-engined Cessnas.

In the worst case scenario, you lean against the baggage door. The door opens. Your pilot-chute gets out. One of your canopies inflates. If you are lucky, you suffer a few broken bones as the canopy drags you out of the airplane.
If you are unlucky, the pilot loses control and has to land a plane full of jumpers suspended by only a 96 square foot reserve.

I would only lean against a baggage door if it was bolted shut and the boot was secured with locking-wire, cotter-pins and a large dab of Locktite!

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skydived19006


.........................................................................................

Thanks for sharing that YouTube clip on an Australian improvement to Hooker's tag-line belts.
"Good on ya mates" for continuing to think-outside-the-box ...... er ...... casket.
Good idea stowing un-used belts along the cabin wall. Those extra buckles reduce "belt counts" to a 1 second glance.

I am curious as to why the Australian narrator said that Hooker belts will be "obsolete in '17"? Is this an Australian government standard?

I still prefer the belting method illustrated in the FAA's 1998 report: through an upper leg strap, the around the Main Lift Web, because it limits how far up the MLW the belt can slide ...... limiting the size of your flail arc ...... limiting the number of buddies you boot in the brain case during a bad landing.

If I may suggest an alternative: attach belts/lanyards to harnesses on a semi-permanent basis.
For example: how about clipping tandem students' side straps to cargo rings (alternate Maillon Rapide #6 connector link)?
When I mentioned this option to a major tandem manufacturer, they gave a vague, boiler-plate answer "we can neither confirm nor deny ...." then admitted that they could not afford to certify a harness-belt configuration that crosses the border between FAA TSO-C22 (seat-belts) and C23 (parachutes).

Another alternative is issuing each instructor with a short loop of webbing - that wraps around their hip joint - and is compatible with existing aircraft belts. It helps if he/she clips to the adjustable end of a regular seat-belt.

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We hardly ever do tandems, since our proximity to EHAM limits our altitude to 6000ft max.

We mostly jump a mix of static-line students and sports jumpers. Adjusting the club gear to include a seatbelt by default may be an option, but we definitely cannot mandate that on sports jumpers individual gear.

The belting method in the FAA report looks solid, but it has the issue that it's not always that easy to route it through legstraps. Taking myself as an example, I prefer to have my legstraps really tight, so fitting anything through it is very difficult. MLW by itself is much more accessible.

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