Wing loading for first rig

[billvon 2,406]

>I think you are fine as long as you are not on a busy DZ and pay attention to what are you doing.
I disagree. Paying attention is one thing; someone who only jumps Mantas, then gets a drastically smaller canopy, is generally not going to know a thing about canopy flying - _especially_ if he jumps at a small DZ! You sure don't learn much canopy control under a Manta, and when you make such a big step all at once, you don't dare to try to learn things on your own. (i.e. you're "very careful", you always land in the student area, you never push it.)
Then one day you go to a boogie with the small canopy, and someone cuts you off. There's plenty of time to react - he's still 50 feet from you. You do the one thing you know to do, which is pull down a toggle, and you discover yourself hitting the ground horizontally at 40mph. The few seconds between pulling the toggle down and impact is _not_sufficient to learn that a 1.5 to 1 loading is nothing like a .8 to 1 loading, and that the way you avoid obstacles is completely different.
There are two ways to learn to fly a canopy. One, experience. To do that, you need to make mistakes. Turn low on the Manta a few times, land hard a few times. You can do that without killing yourself. Then get a smaller canopy (a 230, say) and do the same thing. Make fewer mistakes, because you know about the manta, but still biff a few times as you try flares, stalls, stall turns, landing in a crosswind. Then get a 190. A serious mistake will now kill you, but you know what not to do with your experience on the 230. You try flare turns and flat turns, biff once or twice. Now you're down to a 160, and you make ever-more minor mistakes as you learn what to do and what not to do. At the end of this, you'll have made a lot of mistakes, and learned a lot about your canopy. You'll learn none of this if you have to be very careful to avoid any possible problems with a way-too-small canopy.
The second way is to go through a canopy control class, where such things are taught explicitly. There are learning objectives, a syllabus, and criterions for passing. There are also generally several canopy size steps during the training. This is a great way to do it. Note that getting advice from a friend a few times is not a good substitute for this kind of training.
I learned the hard way, on a progression from 300 to 215 to 190 to 150 square feet (exit weight 180.) I got lots of pointers but no real instruction. I paid with a torn ACL and a broken foot, which seems about par for learning on your own from my experience. Someone who goes from a 288 to a 150 just off student status with nothing in between may well luck out and somehow learn survival skills without the kind of injuries I had - but I wouldn't bet on it.
-bill von

[Engovatov 0]

>1.33:1 (200# out the door divided by Sabre 150...) is entirely too high of a wing-loading to start with and something..
Not that I entirely disagree, but it is kinda strange that people think that 170 vs 150 will make much of a difference if you bury your toggle, after being cut off. Hm? What if this 170 is a Safire, which is about 155 by PD measurements? Would you be fine with that?
Yeah, his loading is on the high side, but heck, it seems to me it takes more arrogance to make minor recommendations (we are not talking about switching from 105 FX to Manta) of having to move up ONE size, without seeing the guy, then choosing something a bit speedy to start with.
I am not a parachuting expert, but I learned to trad lead on 5.8/5.9 and felt great and safe, while some do it slowly from 5.5th, and others still jump on 11th.. People are different. 170 vs 150 is not that much different.
Though I totally agree that jumping RIGHT from 280 to 150 is a bit, hm., not optimal. Is it too hard to find something in between for a few dozen jumps on each size? Heck - order a demo, if they do not have any rentals..

[Engovatov 0]

>Paying attention is one thing; someone who only jumps Mantas, then gets a drastically smaller canopy, is generally not going to know a thing about canopy flying
You are right - I missed that he moved right to it without even trying anything in between for even a few jumps..
Probably not wise.. I was just musing aloud that 1.33 can kill you not much faster then 1.1 or .2, well within potential individual differences.. And I was assuming decent supervision/instruction and all the drills performed..

[kwmontreal 0]

I personally took the slow road. I went from a Manta, to a Sharp Shooter, to a PD190 and then to a Saber 170 (loaded at 1.25). I am real happy I progressed and learned to handel each canopy. I have seen way to many people rush to be "in". Take your time ...... perhaps buy a "used" rig with a 190. Put a 150-200 jumps on it and learn to be a competant and safe canopy pilot. Buy new next time around!! You can then purchase a new container to fit say a Saber 170 (tight) and use it to progress down to as low as a Stilletto 135 if you wish.
The worst thing you can do is rush!! Go to a nice stable canopy and learn how to fly (stalls, front/rear riser work ...... ect). Have you ever thought you may need to control and land your canopy with only the risers?
Conserative is safe !!
Blue skies and soft landings.

[Kris 0]

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170 vs 150 is not that much different.

Engovatov,
It may not be that much different on numbers but I can tell you from experiance that changing 20 sq. feet can be a night and day difference at some loadings. Hell, I could tell the diffference between my Sabre 210 and when I borrowed Merrick's 190 that it was twitchier and the landings were quite faster.
Those 20 sq. feet can also be the difference between a simple biff and major trauma depending on conditions.
I watched a friend of mine do a no-flare landing on a Sabre 150 loaded at 1:1 (It was way past susnset and he had on tinted goggles) last September. He bounced a foot off of the ground before he stopped. We recently had his jumpsuit that the EMT's cut off of him made into a back-pack for him. Think what that landing would have been like at 1.3:1. He probably would not be here today. He got off lucky, he only fractured 3 vertebrae and tore up his ankle pretty good.
As we go up in experience level, these may not seem like such big things because we have already gone through them but always try to remember what your skill level was like at that same number of jumps.
Other than that, I agree with everything else you said.
Kris

[algboy 0]

Bear this in mind--yes I don't know crap--I only have 20 jumps. HOWEVER . . . I don't think canopy sizing is necessarily a one-size-fits-all proposition. It depends on the pilot.
While student jumping at both Morris, IL and Eloy, I noticed jumpers in the several-hundred-jumps category careening in like AFF students. HELLO? I'm sorry--there's almost NO excuse for coming in downwind! Do they even bother to check the winds before going up. Did they have a plan? Can they fly a basic downwind-base-final pattern and have it figured out at, like 2K?? It's kinda sad. Canopy flying seems to be the "bald-headed stepchild" for a lot of jumpers (IMHO).
OK--here's where y'all are gonna think I'm a braggin' POS, but I stood up at least half and landed in or damn close to the peas on most of my AFFs and solos. My instructor would shake his head and say, "Are you a pilot or something?" Yes, I have done SOME flying, but maybe it's just a "feel" thing. I see a lot of bad landings out there. And no--I'm not planning to hook anything in for QUITE a while.
OK-OK--what's my friggin' point? I would like to think that I'd be OK at 1.0 or slightly higher at my jump level. Those 230s feel like DOGS--even at Eloy's 1500 MSL! BTW--I'm about 230 out the door (gotta ease up on the brewskies, don'tcha know). Am I gonna do some wackass crazy s*** like buy a Stilleto 135 anytime soon? No way, Jose! I'm getting on the demo program at Eloy, but I'll bet I'll be around to enjoy beers for years as I downsize--intelligently--for me. OK--flame away . . . . ;-)
Hey, Clay, I REALLY don't know shit!! hehehehehehe
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Joe E Lewis

[rhino 0]

There is no rush my friend.. Get a Triathlon at 1.1 and you should be golden for 200 jumps...
Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!
http://www.aahit.com

[conoro 0]

Hmm. This thread has me thinking. I have 57 jumps, so far all on Manta 290s. I was going to buy a new rig, with a Silhouette 150 in it. I think I'm in a different boat from the 200 pounder though :-). I weigh just over 10 stone (140 pounds). Even fully geared up that's not
even 1.1 loading.
So I should be fine yes?! I've been reading a few of the threads on this topic. I can land on the X pretty much, dropzone is at sea level, I steer with the risers on the Manta cause, god knows, the steering lines take too long. And I'll be doing intermediate jumps (210/190) before the 150 (I'm not nuts!)
I don't want to rush it though - the "what type of injury do you want" comment is kinda sobering...
Conor.

[rhino 0]

You should be fine under a 150.. Just play around up high and get to know the rock point so you can do it on landing.. Rock point as in the point where you are pulling the toggles down and the canopy is now flying straight and starting to bleed off air speed instead of flying down in full flight..
That loading is forgiving enough.. Just plan ahead..
Rhino
Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!
http://www.aahit.com

[conoro 0]

Thanks Rhino. Always great to have another opinion on canopy sizes. I had planned to check stall points etc up way high but I might have missed the rock point you mentioned. Good idea!
Story: In trying to stall the Manta once I discovered that one's arms don't appear long enough. So I placed both toggles together in one hand and started reeling in the lines. Whoooaaahhhh. Staaaalllll!!! I looked up to see both end cells touching. Apparantly this is called "trashing the canopy" or something. This was noticed from the ground
Conor.

[skybytch 259]

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So I should be fine yes?!

Unfortunately there's no way of knowing for sure if you will be or not. Based on what you said I'd have no problem selling you what you are looking at buying... what's going to keep you "fine" is more a matter of how you fly it.

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I don't want to rush it though

Smart! Very smart!! pull and flare,
lisa
---
Mondays suck

[dragon2 0]

I found the size difference wasn't really the problem when I first jumped a non-student canopy. I used to jump manta's then skymaster 280 and 230, the 230 didn't feel any faster to me tho. Then I rented a merit 190, whew. Eh, more like, yikes!!! Took me 6 jumps to be able to land the thing properly. In the middle of the student field. The thing I had trouble with was the lines, ie they're much shorter and a merit is WAY more responsive anyway. Since I'm kinda lightweight that was the first time any canopy actually responded to me :) I could climb up the risers of the manta's/skymasters, and could lean or hang in any direction in my harness without the canopy turning an inch. The merit, by comparison, was twitchy. I think I would have liked the spectre 190 I jumped after that much better for a first regular canopy. After the spectre I jumped a Tri 175 for a couple jumps, and now I am the proud owner of a brand-new spectre 150 loaded at 1:1, and I have a lot of work (fun) to do on learning to fly and land the thing.

ciel bleu,
Saskia
www.dragon2.nl

[Engovatov 0]

>Those 20 sq. feet can also be the difference between a simple biff and major trauma depending on conditions.
Not that I disagree that it may make a difference - my point was, maybe I was not clear, that this "conditions" may have a much bigger effect on the outcome, that the difference in size.
Do the following experiment - get a GPS and altimeter and calculate ACTUAL horizontal and vertical speed on 150 and 170. Then tell us why do you think that 12m/s vs 13m/s and 4.3m/s vs 4.4m/s (example - but I would expect numbers to be in this range of differences) is so vastly important for survival on a no flare landing. (BTW - I have been through a no flare landing - and downwind - long story why - on my very first jump on a ram-air rig - (they were all the same size, 22 m2 (~240), no choice, really crappy old PO-16 7 cell, 14(? forgot) years ago..) - made a nice trench on a russian field, but I guess my ass is fatter then average, i just walked away).. Flaring is probably more important - that's due to your reaction time, piloting skills, decision making under stress etc..
To summarise what I was trying to argue: Lets define probability to fuck up (PFU). Correlations (conditions|PFU) >= (experience|PFU) >(equipment|PFU) for equpment within some range (several sizes) - it will diverge fast if you choose equipment that you do not know how to handle at all. I am mostly making this observation on the basis of other dangerous activities, then skydiving - I am not in position to offer expert opinion on anything though (Disclaimer - I am just wasting time arguing on a news group on a topic that is interesting to me)..
Notice - I was not advocating at all that everybody is fine on a small canopy, just curious about such fine hair splitting up and down ONE size..

[MarkM 0]

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Do the following experiment - get a GPS and altimeter and calculate ACTUAL horizontal and vertical speed on 150 and 170. Then tell us why do you think that 12m/s vs 13m/s and 4.3m/s vs 4.4m/s (example - but I would expect numbers to be in this range of differences) is so vastly important for survival on a no flare landing.

It has nothing to do with a no flair landing and everything to do with how quickly the canopy reacts to user input. Given the same canopy and weight of the user, a 150 will probably be much more agressive than a 170. Mistakes under it are going to be amplified.
When you're new you make big mistakes. Big mistakes under a highly loaded canopy are high injury mistakes instead of a bumps and bruises mistake that a lower loading will give you.

[billvon 2,406]

>HOWEVER . . . I don't think canopy sizing is necessarily a one-size-fits-all proposition. It depends on the pilot.
Of course. I think that goes without saying.
>OK-OK--what's my friggin' point? I would like to think that I'd be OK at 1.0 or slightly higher at my jump level.
Again, it all depends on your skill. If you can flat turn and flare turn the canopy, if you can sink it in to a small area, if you can body steer enough to keep it straight on opening, if you've stalled it and done a few stall turns, and can land it well, then you're OK under the canopy you're using.
Some people are naturals. (I was not, BTW.) Maybe they're ultralight pilots, or better yet, paraglider pilots. Maybe they're the rare person that just knows how to fly a canopy from day 1. They may be able to advance to a 1.5 to 1 loading in 20 jumps, learning very quickly as they go. From my experience, those people are very rare. Most of us don't learn that quickly. And that's OK - we have some awesome canopies today that will keep us alive while we learn.
What scares me are the people who go from Manta's (which don't teach you a damn thing about high performance canopy flight) to a 1.5 to 1 loaded canopy, and are so worried about flying it that they never try any of the above things. They're too "careful" because they don't have the experience to fly it, and when they are that careful, they never _get_ the experience to fly it. You can land a 1.5 to 1 Sabre straight in 100 times in a row and never learn anything about the canopy. At the end of those 100 jumps, there's no way you're ready for something else, because you have no new skills.
Case in point. We had a jumper, Randy, who went from a Manta to a Sabre 170. That might be OK except he weighed over 200 pounds. He would break a leg or arm about once every 6 months because he would come straight in and "stick out his hand to break his fall" which of course turned the canopy hard in that direction. He never learned to flare turn - instead, he just blamed it on a "side gust at the last minute." (Funny, those side gusts never got us . . .) He didn't want a larger canopy because he liked the 170 and could handle it "just fine," since 9 out of 10 of his landings were OK. After about 150 jumps or so he quit. Which isn't a bad idea, if you keep breaking your leg and never listen to anyone when they tell you you have canopy control problems.
>Those 230s feel like DOGS--even at Eloy's 1500 MSL!
I have no sympathy for you. I started on a DC-5, and went on to a Pursuit 230 for my first canopy. The Pursuit made Mantas look like sweet landing hotrods. After a broken foot and some assorted back problems I finally wised up and got a PD190, but the Pursuit at least gave me time to learn something about canopy control before I went to the "dangerous" PD190. (When I started, a PD190 was seen in the same light as a Spectre 135 is today - a high performance canopy that could kill you instantly.)
-bill von

[billvon 2,406]

>Do the following experiment - get a GPS and altimeter and calculate ACTUAL horizontal and vertical speed on 150 and 170.
>Then tell us why do you think that 12m/s vs 13m/s and 4.3m/s vs 4.4m/s (example - but I would expect
>numbers to be in this range of differences) is so vastly important for survival on a no flare landing.
Two reasons.
One, a faster canopy requires faster reactions. Someone who isn't used to thinking ahead of a canopy will have a greater risk of biffing or colliding with someone - even before you take how fast they impact into account.
Two, the energy your body has to dissipate when it hits is given by 1/2MV^2 - so if you are going, say, 14m/s instead of 12m/s, the difference isn't 15% more energy, it's 36% more energy. That can be pretty significant.
-bill von

[conoro 0]

I just thought I'd point out something about the Manta. I noticed some people (not Lisa or Billvon obviously) saying the usual - turns like a bus, really slow, feels like dogs etc.
May I say that the Manta 290 can injure very effectively if you make an error with it. I've seen one shattered leg that resulted from deflaring at 20ft. I myself have turned low (but flare-turned to correct), semi-flared (shoulder high - target fixation), and toggle released before feet were on the ground (top of corn!). These were all incidents occuring between 30 and 50 jumps. I got a sprained ankle, sprained finger, mud on the butt of someone else's jumpsuit and also a very sore butt from the quarter flare. That's at 0.50 loading. That's OK - I learnt valuable lessons on the dropzone instead of lying in a hospital somewhere.
Think skiing. Triple diamond slope on a snowboard after one season?
Just my 2cents.
Conor.

[totalwreck 0]

Wow! This has been great, and thanks for the input to my original post. I certainly understood the importance of transitioning down on canopy size, but you all have increased my understanding a great deal. I'm also taking the advice of a number of you to not be in such a dang hurry to get to "the rig." I find myself wanting to get to point A in the future as fast as possible, but that's definitely not the best approach in this sport. With that in mind, I certainly imagine buying used gear and jumping that for the next 100 jumps or so. Thanks again.

[rhino 0]

Ther is NOTHING wrong with getting a new rig that fits you.. The main can change but you can use the same reserve and container. I have had anything from a 150 to a 98 in my rig built for a Triathlon150..
Rhino
Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!
http://www.aahit.com

[Dumpster 0]

Well- I never intended to create such a fuss, and don't want to imply to anyone that what I did- (going straight to a 1.3 : 1 wing loading on a Spectre 150 for those who may just be tuning in-) is the best or even right thing to do- I had no idea that it was that radical- I did not do it without considerable guidance from people at my DZ that are quite experienced- jumped with me, and watched me fly the student gear. And I'm talking folks with over 1,000 jumps and one with probably over 5,000-. So it's not like I did it all on my own just to try to be cool or inflate my ego. I have alot to learn about many aspects of this sport- And I never plan to stop learning- All this input has been very informative. Best advice I could give anyone (For what it's worth- probably not much at this point- I'm sure all who have been reading have figured I'm insane-) Is by all means be conservative, and listen to everyone, in particular those who have jumped with you and know your skills, strengths and weaknesses, weigh it all very carefully and make your decision from there- Beleive me when I tell you I was a bit nervous about going with the 150 - But I also trust the GREAT people at my home DZ who trained me-And continue to train me- One or two names may be familiar to some of the long-time veterans of this sport - (Sorry- I don't drop names without permission-) They may know my abilities better than I - Perhaps I'm some kind of gifted mutant- I don't know- All I do know is I don't find the canopy that hard to fly or control, I do all my own pack jobs, and I honestly appreciate all the input - positive and negative - from everyone- - Really!
When I do make it a major boogie- Look for a guy with a tattoo of a winged eyeball on his right arm- It might be me-
Totalwreck- Hope this helps, dude! Sorry if I stole some thunder!
This will be my last in this thread! Time for me to shut the f*** up!
Life begins at 14,000' - Shut up and jump!

[Kris 0]

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What scares me are the people who go from Manta's (which don't teach you a damn thing about high performance canopy flight) to a 1.5 to 1 loaded canopy, and are so worried about flying it that they never try any of the above things. They're too "careful" because they don't have the experience to fly it, and when they are that careful, they never _get_ the experience to fly it. You can land a 1.5 to 1 Sabre straight in 100 times in a row and never learn anything about the canopy. At the end of those 100 jumps, there's no way you're ready for something else, because you have no new skills.

Preach on Brother Bill! Can I get an Amen?
I was told by some of my fellow jumpers when I sold my 210 that I should skip the 190 and go to a 170 since I lost weight.
Well, the reason I stuck with the 190 was that I want to be able to really get to know my canopy and under a 170 I felt that I would be too busy being conservative to learn anything new for a long time. The 190 gives me that little bit extra of buffer to be able to still make some mistakes without totally damaging myself.
Could I jump a 150 now? Probably, 99 times out of 100 I bet that I would land it fine. But that 1 time that I don't is going to be a doozy and I'm not looking to get my gear cut off of me by an EMT any time soon.
Kris

[Engovatov 0]

>(When I started, a PD190 was seen in the same light as a Spectre 135 is today - a high performance canopy that could kill you instantly.)
That's another interesting point - it seems that newer technology DOES change the acceptable range. Maybe in a few years we will all start on 1.4 loaded ellipticals - they will fly so well, that it would be considered safe.
One day there was one 5.9 ever free climbed..that's Yosemite decimal system after all.. Now gym pups jump on 5.9 (he he - but NOT on old school offwidths.. ;) as there is no tomorrow..
Many landings on old Russian rigs - closest thing to bouncing one can experience.. ;-)))
Bad joke..
Back to the topic of 150 vs 170 - yeah 36% kinetic energy and 10% less time to react is noticable - but natural variation of reaction time is probably twice that or more.. Or well, moot point - we all know what we are talking about... And it's up to the individual pilot to decide after all..

[billvon 2,406]

>That's another interesting point - it seems that newer technology DOES change the acceptable range.
> Maybe in a few years we will all start on 1.4 loaded ellipticals - they will fly so well, that it would be considered safe.
Problem is that advances in climbing - Scarpas replacing EB's, rap bolting sport routes, friends and camalots for traditional climbing, better dynamic ropes, load limiters and harnesses - made it safer and easier. The same isn't true for smaller, more elliptical canopies. They're harder and more dangerous to land than a Manta. True, teaching methods have gotten better in both sports - climbing has indoor gyms, skydiving has tandem and AFF. But that's a separate issue (training.)
-bill von

[skymedic 0]

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I'm not looking to get my gear cut off of me by an EMT any time soon

I promise I wont touch the gear......
marc
BSBD

[Kris 0]

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I promise I wont touch the gear......

Marc, (sniffle) You Da' Man!
Kris